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  1. #21
    Guilds, probably with the exception of 'famous' ones on a per-server basis, will either change how they pick members, and alter how forgiving / teaching they are, or continue to suffer dwindling numbers. That's pretty much the bottom line.
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  2. #22
    The Insane det's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HeatherRae View Post
    Is it really a "choice" when there are no other real options for extremely casual and new players at this point?
    Not sure what options you seek. Fact is (stated by Blizzard, on the news page on one of the last few days): The majority of LFR players never was part of the recruiting pool for HM or normal guilds. As evidenced by numbers like: 500 000 people in DS pre LFR. Over 2 million when LFR was introduced.
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    One cause is a cognitive bias called projection bias. Essentially living inside your own head your entire life makes it exceedingly difficult to understand how others do not also live your same life, think your same thoughts, and hold your same beliefs. In many cases it's quite frustrating to try to empathize and understand why you yourself may not be the center of the universe, which generally results in one 'acting out' in various ways.
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  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchor View Post
    The numbers don't lie, anyone who kept track of the numbers, also knows that the number of raidguilds in the past few years has been dropping considerably faster than the number of subscribers. 25m guilds were the first ones to bite the dust, but even HM and normal 10m raiding is seeing guilds die at a rapid pace ever since MoP.

    The reason can be summarized very simply:
    "Lack of new blood."

    There are many reasons why new people are having such a hard time getting into the raiding scene, but to name the two most important ones:

    1. "Applications". It's perhaps not the applications themselves that are at fault here, but examplary of mostly the high standards that many raidguilds have, they tend to only want to recruit people who have exactly the same gear as them or are ahead of them in progress and experience. People who are new to WoW usually won't gear up with anything than LFR and Valor gear and will have a very hard time getting accepted into any kind of raidguild. If guilds don't learn to lower their standards and to have a friendlier policy to letting new blood in then in the longterm they'll run out of anyone to recruit at all. This is a typical example of internet entropy, there are no governing bodies or studygroups that can investigate and prevent crises on the longterm. If WoW raiding had been a 'government' concern, then there would've been all sorts of recruitments measures that would force guilds to recruit newbies to assure longterm prosperity of the raiding scene, just like how modern governments need to take all sorts of measures to protect the economy or the wellbeing of subgroups, just to present a poignant comparison.

    2. LFR. It satisfies the needs of most people nowadays. The average gamer tends to be very happy beating a game on easy-difficulty if they get to see same parts of the story. Few people will actually see the point in doing it on a harder difficulty setting, especially if this will mean time commitment. People simply don't like commiting to online clans and guilds as much anymore as they used to. The market has been spoiling them with the comfort of playing casual and quick games that they could pick up and drop whenever they feel like it. The NES generation is no longer the main part of the market. On the other hand though, LFR was clearly introduced because the raiding scene was dieing off... and if the raiding scene had become even smaller than it was at one point during Cata then the plug would have been pulled on designing raidcontent at all. LFR is the guardian angel of making sure people will have raids in the future, it wasn't a great or longterm solution though ... because it aided at the same time with the decline of normal or HM raiding.


    There is very little doubt in my mind that in the future raiding in WoW will entirely consist out of queuing or flexi-raiding at easier difficulties.
    I agree with both points to an extent:

    1. From what I've seen, it's not necessarily that guilds want recruits to be in top-notch gear, it's that they want to see effort and knowledge behind the gear choices. Our guild's average ilvl is ~530, but I understand that not every applicant may be at that level. However, if I see that an applicant put in the effort running LFRs/5.1 normal raids/getting valor gear/etc., it puts them on the short list vs. someone who's still in 476 and 489's.

    2. I've posted about LFR previously and my main opinion was basically that LFR is a good tool to let people see content, but it also creates a trend (especially amongst newer players) of "join queue, win loot". I would like to see a staggered LFR (where LFRs are released a tier later) with a heavier focus on flex raiding. I know some won't agree with that, but I think such a switch would benefit the PvE community.

  4. #24
    Of course new blood is the problem, raiding as is remains very much the same at its core as it was in 2004, theres new mechanics but its all very different ways of doing exactly the same thing. To someone used to modern games? applications, a time commitments and the repetitive nature of it must be the most dull, uninteresting thing in the world.
    Modern gamers don't want to raid anymore, its an archaic endeavour that demands too much for little reward from most reactions i see.

    Look at modern games, all the things from this years E3, then look at throne of thunder. Why would that audience see that as alluring?

    Times change and so does what the market wants. We used to raid in 40 player groups and thats a thing of the past. People only like the same thing for so long. Much as we shy away from it WoW is damn near ancient in videogame terms. Not quiet the eldritch relic like everquest or ultima online, but people are going to look at games like Destiny and the like and through the modern gamer lens see it like comparing a gameboy game to an xbox game.

  5. #25
    Pit Lord HeatherRae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paisti View Post
    Speaking of 10 and 25 sharing the lockouts I think it only helps with this scene, at least you can now get 10 motivated enough people to do that progressing.
    Sharing the lockouts? How does that even work when more guilds have fragmented and dissolved since they merged the lockouts than ever had before? Back in Wrath, there were constant pugs, GDKP runs, and a lot of interaction between more "hardcore" players and more "casual" players, with hardcore players running with their friends on the weekends in pugs, and casual players pugging into GDKP runs and normal 25 man runs. You don't see that anymore, and for more "casual" players, the only "path to progression" they have is LFR. That's it. There's nothing else - because no one is going to take an "LFR hero" with them on a normal run, since it dramatically increases the odds that the run won't succeed.


    If for some reason 10 raids dropped away, the numbers would be really sad to look at. Why there were so many guilds clearing DS hc? It was out quite long (I didnt like it btw, 1 year is too long, 8 months for final tier would have been reasonable), so "bad" guilds could clear it in time as well. For some reason I support this kind of model. Rather have content out longer than let the LFR take over with current model and rushing. Even Semi-HC guilds who do run HC content would like some kind of vacation.
    Um, no. People were clearing DS HC because it was nerfed into oblivion. By the 25% mark, I'd say that DS HC was about as easy as normal T14. Which means that a lot of those guilds that thought they were something due to clearing DS HC ended up hitting a brick wall with their faces when T14 dropped.
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  6. #26
    I used to raid all the time back in TBC, Wrath and the beginning of Cata. It was fun for the most part. But Cata quickly burnt me out and I would quit shortly after the first tier. So I eventually come back late into MoP and there's really no appeal for me to do it all again. As fun as it all was, it was also annoying and stressful, like a second job at times. I have no desire to apply to a guild, deal with all the drama and raid regularly again. Is LFR to blame? Sure, a bit. But I've found I can enjoy the game much more and go at my own pace.

    If guilds hope to survive this rise of the casual, then I imagine they'd have to adapt. Start running LFR yourselves, find people in it who aren't complete derps and try to recruit them, train them, integrate them better with everyone so that they find a comfortable niche in the guild. Since it seems like it's no longer a matter of people flocking to you anymore.
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  7. #27
    Brewmaster Zenotetsuken's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HeatherRae View Post
    You're operating on the assumption that new people have the chance at getting into a raiding guild that will teach them the ropes and help them get to the point where they CAN go for those more progressed, end game guilds. The sad truth of the matter is that those extremely casual "trainer" guilds no longer exist. It isn't that most people want to do LFR, it's that most players don't have any other options.
    Yeah, I was speaking from a perspective prior to LFR existing. From the current perspective, I totally agree that the stepping stones needed to become a solid raider are being replaced by bars.

  8. #28
    Pit Lord HeatherRae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    Not sure what options you seek. Fact is (stated by Blizzard, on the news page on one of the last few days): The majority of LFR players never was part of the recruiting pool for HM or normal guilds. As evidenced by numbers like: 500 000 people in DS pre LFR. Over 2 million when LFR was introduced.
    The majority? No. But the majority were part of small, casual guilds that trained up the minority which more progressed guilds picked up as "prospects." Now those feeder guilds are a thing of the past, because it is too easy to do LFR and too damn hard to get through normal. Additionally, because most guilds are now 10 mans, there are fewer places for new players to get a chance.
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  9. #29
    There is plenty of new blood, just nobody willing to look at it.
    LFR has vast numbers, numbers of players who otherwise would not be raiding at all.
    It has the potential to be a stepping stone, should the elitist attitude be dropped.

    Normal raiding has always had an organisational and commitment issue, but if anything it is getting worse through player driven means.
    Less accepting than ever of people being late, of plans changing, of people having a real life outside of the game which less convenient than yours.
    The community was way more flexible when you accepted you had to make concessions, or would not get the numbers.

    Now too many hardcore raiders take the easy route, 10m as opposed to 25m which given the past popularity before the equalisation is not the difficulty its made out to be, just sufficiently harder to make players take the "easy mode" 10m, ironic considering that is what they keep calling LFR.

    They can't be bothered to recruit any more by talking to people, instead judge them simply on their gear or which content that draconian and excessive requirements force them into.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Burnt View Post
    I would have to say that it is in most part due to LFR. Blizzard caved when people went to the forums complaining that they "deserved" to see end game content, just like everyone else.
    In the past when people wanted to see end game raiding, they worked on getting good enough at the game to get into a raid guild. When they added LFR, all of those people that would potentially have been raiders chose the easiest path available, and joined the queue for loot with their hands out.
    I think you have to put some of this on the Heroic Raiders as well. The ones that claimed to be burnt out on 4 different difficulties. Without merging the 10 and 25 lockout I don't know if we would have ever seen LFR. I know on the realm I was on at the time (this ream has since tanked btw) there were several pugs running every week for both 10 and 25 ICC and ToC. You could get all the easy raiding you wanted any time of the week, but more so on the weekend. Dal was always full of people looking for groups etc.

    I personally believe that the decline of PvE content, no matter what the devs try to claim, was the introduction of LFD and PvE matchmaking in general. It has no place in PvE (excluding maybe scenarios) and shouldn't have ever been adapted for PvE.
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  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    Funny how I don't remember any of those threads or demands.

    What I DO however remember is Rob Pardo saying the developers loved the epic experience of raiding in MMOs pre-WoW but found it too exclusive and wanted to bring the experience to as many people as possible.
    That's strange, because I remember reading threads all the time (starting in vanilla) complaining that Tiered raiding was too exclusive, and that people that don't want to commit to that much time still deserve to see the content.
    I guess we all remember things differently.

  12. #32
    Pit Lord HeatherRae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ComputerNerd View Post
    There is plenty of new blood, just nobody willing to look at it.
    LFR has vast numbers, numbers of players who otherwise would not be raiding at all.
    It has the potential to be a stepping stone, should the elitist attitude be dropped.

    Normal raiding has always had an organisational and commitment issue, but if anything it is getting worse through player driven means.
    Less accepting than ever of people being late, of plans changing, of people having a real life outside of the game which less convenient than yours.
    The community was way more flexible when you accepted you had to make concessions, or would not get the numbers.

    Now too many hardcore raiders take the easy route, 10m as opposed to 25m which given the past popularity before the equalisation is not the difficulty its made out to be, just sufficiently harder to make players take the "easy mode" 10m, ironic considering that is what they keep calling LFR.

    They can't be bothered to recruit any more by talking to people, instead judge them simply on their gear or which content that draconian and excessive requirements force them into.
    My guild doesn't judge people by their gear. If they had, I never would have gotten a trial. Gear is easy to come by. But they do judge them by experience. No hardcore guild is going to take a player whose only experience is LFR. And there are very few "normal mode" guilds left that aren't either 10 man (and thus perpetually full) or trying to push heroic content while their guild fragments due to lack of progression.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-24 at 09:38 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Rizendragon View Post
    I think you have to put some of this on the Heroic Raiders as well. The ones that claimed to be burnt out on 4 different difficulties. Without merging the 10 and 25 lockout I don't know if we would have ever seen LFR. I know on the realm I was on at the time (this ream has since tanked btw) there were several pugs running every week for both 10 and 25 ICC and ToC. You could get all the easy raiding you wanted any time of the week, but more so on the weekend. Dal was always full of people looking for groups etc.

    I personally believe that the decline of PvE content, no matter what the devs try to claim, was the introduction of LFD and PvE matchmaking in general. It has no place in PvE (excluding maybe scenarios) and shouldn't have ever been adapted for PvE.
    Burnt out on 4 different difficulties every week? Absolutely. But no one in my guild at the time, or any of the others I spoke to, ever wanted the lockouts merged. The way it worked in ICC and Ulduar was just fine. Most people I know preferred the Ulduar version, actually, but accepted ICC as well.
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  13. #33
    Herald of the Titans Geminiwolf's Avatar
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    I get the feeling that the whole "raid guilds dying" topic is becoming another "LFR QQ" thing. Anyway about the applications that some guilds require you to fill out, I think they're pretty ridiculous. Why should I have to waste time filling out some form like if I was signing up for a job. If a guild tells me to fill out an application, I don't join because if a guild is going to be that stuck up I could only imagine how it would be to be in the guild with them and raid with them.
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  14. #34
    Most people that would be willing to start raiding stop at LFR simply because it satisfies their need to see all content/story/new boss fights. This happens without them having to give up pretty much anything of their RL schedule so it's a very simple/nice way. There is no real incentive to raid normal/heroic or at least to get a taste of the more difficult raiding.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    Guilds, probably with the exception of 'famous' ones on a per-server basis, will either change how they pick members, and alter how forgiving / teaching they are, or continue to suffer dwindling numbers. That's pretty much the bottom line.
    I agree with this. 4 years ago I think top guilds could get away with acting like pricks to everyone and LOL and everyone else's substandard gear. Now as the talent pool dries up, they may have to develop some social manners and realize what businesses has realized for years. That sometimes you have to invest a little into Joe blow and help him realize his potential. Guilds like Midwinter who occasionally host a openraid.us Heroic run are examples of what more high end guilds need to start looking at.

    I'm sympathetic to most heroic raiding guilds, I imagine running normal mode with guilds\players who are struggling with normal content feels to them like running LFR does to me.

    I get the feeling that the whole "raid guilds dying" topic is becoming another "LFR QQ" thing.
    Well, Ghostcraler has tweeted several times now that LFR has taken very few normal raiders away. He states that most of LFR is ran by people who never raided. Obviously, there is the tin foil hat guys who are going to say he's lying. So if someone is still trying to say LFR is stealing raiders, then I'd say either put on your tinfoil hat or give up that argument, it's been dismissed!
    Last edited by Mad_Murdock; 2013-06-24 at 02:43 PM.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by HeatherRae View Post
    Um, no. People were clearing DS HC because it was nerfed into oblivion. By the 25% mark, I'd say that DS HC was about as easy as normal T14. Which means that a lot of those guilds that thought they were something due to clearing DS HC ended up hitting a brick wall with their faces when T14 dropped.
    You got it there. I have cleared all content this game offers on HC when tier was relevant. I still support these nerfs. People cleared DS hc because it was out long, and most importantly because it was nerfed. Nerfing content is the easiest way to let more people experience harder content. Which in my opinion is fine, but I am probably the 1% minority here, as it has been seen how much crying the nerfs will make happen. I do wonder myself why people are so selfish that its bad if others clear something on hc after you've done so, oh well =P. I am just like that, not selfish at all IRL, but most people are as I also try to be realistic.

  17. #37
    I just don't get it. But I have an idea.

    It's about gearing.
    slower, more dramatic, less progressed guilds tend to want pre geared or over geared replacements and get trapped in a cycle of failing due to gearing replacement players. It makes everyone weary and people go nuts. YOU COULD be progressing in heroic, but you just got a lower geared tank ( which is now the excuse as to why shit sucks in the raid, you know, cause hes under geared, it has nothing to do with not knowing what to do or just being shitty and refusing to learn how to do better) People Eventually burn out over the never ending gearing and bailing thing.

    My idea to fix it, simply is: IF you are allways on, you need to suck it up and take reins and do the job your raid needs even if it's not ideal for you. ( nobody wants to do that tho)
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  18. #38
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    I think it might not be that easy to get into a raiding guild either, jsut my impression. The way I got in was through a friend of mine, so not everyone might get it that way. I only had done a little raiding in Cata, so I wasn't used to raiding normals in progression. Thankfully they were nice people, and it might take a while to find that too.

    Just my impression that people who want pugs want people to overgear the content, already have done all of it and not make many mistakes, and that makes it difficult to start out. Perhaps its different on lower pop servers, I'm on a "full" one.

  19. #39
    Moderator Gehco's Avatar
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    Wait... Your raiding guilds is dying out to LFR?

    Then you are doing something wrong...

    ...Looking for Raid has actually brought us more people willing to raid. And it's a good starter for everyone who wishes to start. Heck, easier to find people that are willing to prepare for raiding now with LFR than before...
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  20. #40
    Pit Lord HeatherRae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geminiwolf View Post
    I get the feeling that the whole "raid guilds dying" topic is becoming another "LFR QQ" thing. Anyway about the applications that some guilds require you to fill out, I think they're pretty ridiculous. Why should I have to waste time filling out some form like if I was signing up for a job. If a guild tells me to fill out an application, I don't join because if a guild is going to be that stuck up I could only imagine how it would be to be in the guild with them and raid with them.
    How exactly are they supposed to figure out if you have the experience, know-how...and, hell, computer system to be able to raid with them if they don't put out an application? How exactly are they supposed to know if your DPS or healing is up to par? If you know your class and your spec?

    Quote Originally Posted by dakalro View Post
    Most people that would be willing to start raiding stop at LFR simply because it satisfies their need to see all content/story/new boss fights. This happens without them having to give up pretty much anything of their RL schedule so it's a very simple/nice way. There is no real incentive to raid normal/heroic or at least to get a taste of the more difficult raiding.
    I don't know of anyone who enjoys running LFR. When you mention LFR to people - even my extremely casual friends - they groan. And they all - seriously, all of them - say they miss being able to raid casually with friends. But from their perspective, it's not an option with the current difficulty on normal.
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