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  1. #501
    Brewmaster Klingers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dasmiez View Post
    Raid guilds are a dying breed because people grow up and eventually get too smart to accept the ridiculous elitist attitude most raid leaders have. Easy as that.
    I wouldn't go quite that far. I would say however that people grow up and probably want a form of unscheduled recreation that feels less like work when they already have a job. LFR fits that bill nicely.
    Knowledge is power, and power corrupts. So study hard and be evil.

  2. #502
    The Lightbringer UnifiedDivide's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gondlem View Post
    You aren't compelled to interact socially in LFR though. If you're in a raiding guild, the relationships you form in that guild keep you tied to the game. People know your name, want you to be there, care about your performance and so on. LFR is anonymous. Sure you can talk, but you don't have to and most people don't, and if you do it doesn't change the experience. You can easily do LFR every week without even turning chat on. So if you didn't feel like doing LFR, you just wouldn't. That's personal choice and so on, but it does mean you're going to be more likely to unsub. There are plenty of days I don't necessarily feel like raiding or its tough to find the time but I log on and do it anyway because people in my guild rely on me.
    Except I am in a raiding guild. I've actually been in this guild only about a week or so but the people I play with in that guild, I've been in a guild with them since early TBC. The point is that we encourage social interaction wherever we are in the game. I've had random people log onto RaidCall with us before. Just for some lols. And it was actually a great laugh. I ended up with several battle tags and new friends that night.

    I don't need to be compelled or even forced to interact, as most people seemingly do, I'm a generally chatty guy.
    I won't deny that there isn't any need to chat in LFR though. But that is the very thing people complain about and yet choose not to do it. Those people complaining about the lack of it are part of the problem themselves.
    Last edited by UnifiedDivide; 2013-06-27 at 12:20 AM.

    Super rarely updated...

  3. #503
    The Insane det's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilian View Post
    Sorry, I don't read a whole list of blue posts and patchnotes and datamined information that shows up here multiple times a week of a game I don't play anymore.

    .
    Good grief. You don't read patch notes, you don't play the game, you are eveidently not aware what is going on (and by your post history it has been like that for years) - well...erm..okay, I am sure your contribution is appreciated. Much like mine would be if I posted on the Rift or SW forums ^^

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-27 at 02:21 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by dasmiez View Post
    Raid guilds are a dying breed because people grow up and eventually get too smart to accept the ridiculous elitist attitude most raid leaders have. Easy as that.
    Considering we have a minimum of 30 000 raiding guilds, I find comfort that you personally polled them all to know what "most" do, want and are.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    One cause is a cognitive bias called projection bias. Essentially living inside your own head your entire life makes it exceedingly difficult to understand how others do not also live your same life, think your same thoughts, and hold your same beliefs. In many cases it's quite frustrating to try to empathize and understand why you yourself may not be the center of the universe, which generally results in one 'acting out' in various ways.
    So, in short: the internet.

  4. #504
    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    How would you know what objectively the norm is? Because some people complain and bitch on forums you's think that is the norem? No...few people actually post on forums. the few that post don't even agree. If I am generous I see 1000 different posters in LFR threads. Meanwhile 1.99 million and more regularely do LFR and don't post about it.

    Ofc you are free to claim they all hate it, feel miserable, make each others life shit and are incomunicado while doing so.
    The not norm being claimed is having conversations in LFR chat. I may have a small sample size, but I suspect it's large enough to generalize to within an adequate margin of error. It's pretty small.
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  5. #505
    Raid guilds are a dying breed because the game is to easy and anyone can raid making raiding not the cool thing to do but to rather say that you do and tell everyone how it was nothing because throwing yourself at a boss 300 times isn't as much fun as actually doing it.

  6. #506
    I go into LFR with guildies and friends all the time, maybe that's why I enjoy LFR.

  7. #507
    Quote Originally Posted by UnifiedDivide View Post
    I love how you say this with such finality as though it is the absolute truth.

    You seem to think that people are unable to talk to people they do not know and join an brand new guild altogether. Which is what a lot of people actually do. How do you think people got into guilds in the first place more often than not?
    Am I saying that nobody just up and quit altogether? Nope. But to say that that is the only thing happening is silly.
    Apparently not a lot of people do that since the number of raiding guilds have been dropping really fast. So they obviously quit or started doing other things in WoW. Or maybe guilds got bigger and now have multiple raidteams? Nah...

    Maybe you don't understand how much harder it is now to find or create a guild. Numbers of guilds dropped a lot, LFR results in less recruits because of new players not feeling the need to join your guild or they are so used to everything being easy they are not really suited to join an old raiding guild with a lot of experience, raiding in a guild is far less rewarding than before. There is simply less reason to raid with a guild.
    If Blizzard is oke with that or you believe the future is LFR/Flex raiding only and raiding guilds are just an old stupid and inconvenient idea then this obviously doesn't matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    Good grief. You don't read patch notes, you don't play the game, you are eveidently not aware what is going on (and by your post history it has been like that for years) - well...erm..okay, I am sure your contribution is appreciated. Much like mine would be if I posted on the Rift or SW forums ^^
    I quit WoW only three months ago and I got a few years experience with this game. And I am pretty sure no one here reads all the announcements Blizzard makes. So yeah, instead of calling me stupid he could have just left that part out.

    Thanks for your awesome contribution. In another thread you hate on people for hating on WoW before even anyone said something. Maybe check your own post history some time before judging others.
    Last edited by Gilian; 2013-06-27 at 12:40 AM.

  8. #508
    Quote Originally Posted by Begrudge View Post
    Raid guilds are a dying breed because the game is to easy and anyone can raid making raiding not the cool thing to do but to rather say that you do and tell everyone how it was nothing because throwing yourself at a boss 300 times isn't as much fun as actually doing it.
    I assume you're 13/13H , right ?

  9. #509
    Quote Originally Posted by celinamuna View Post
    I assume you're 13/13H , right ?
    yes and you? o thats right no

  10. #510
    The Lightbringer UnifiedDivide's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Begrudge View Post
    Raid guilds are a dying breed because the game is to easy and anyone can raid making raiding not the cool thing to do but to rather say that you do and tell everyone how it was nothing because throwing yourself at a boss 300 times isn't as much fun as actually doing it.
    If it was truly so easy, everyone would have killed Ra'den by now. Yet many guilds are struggling on the first few heroic bosses in ToT. Horridon for example.

    Super rarely updated...

  11. #511
    LFR is a tool, your enjoyment will be based on how you choose to use it. If you go afk then you get nothing out of it. If you go in with friends and chat while playing you will enjoy it more. If you use it to learn mechanics outside of guild raid time you will sharpen your skills during raid. You can use it to tighten your rotation and get that all important muscle memory.

    It's just a tool. If someone goes around bashing people's heads in do we arrest the hammer? Blame the playah not the game baby!

  12. #512
    Quote Originally Posted by Begrudge View Post
    yes and you? o thats right no
    I'm close enough to not care for the difference ?
    And if anything raids stayed on same difficulty level, it just shifted responsibility from only 1 or 2 ppl to most ppl in the raid group.

    EDIT : And no, i don't think either your paladin or dk qualify as 13/13H. Sorry.

  13. #513
    Quote Originally Posted by Begrudge View Post
    yes and you? o thats right no
    He wasn't complaining the game was too easy.

    Your idea that people are quitting because the game has become too easy is manifestly ridiculous, btw. If you really are 13/13H, you are in the top 0.2% or so of players. Everyone else has been stymied somewhere, or is too cowed by the difficulty of content to even want to attempt it.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  14. #514
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    He wasn't complaining the game was too easy.

    Your idea that people are quitting because the game has become too easy is manifestly ridiculous, btw. If you really are 13/13H, you are in the top 0.2% or so of players. Everyone else has been stymied somewhere, or is too cowed by the difficulty of content to even want to attempt it.
    It's part of why I quit. I only was at 8/16 HC though so maybe my opinion doesn't count.

  15. #515
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    That's overly simplistic. Social interaction is complicated thing and people do things for different reasons. Some leave their guilds and stop, sure. Others leave their guilds and settle in to LFR, absolutely. People that haven't raided in a long time for whatever reason manage to join guilds both casual and otherwise. Some don't bother. All of them can choose to go into LFR or not as they wish.
    imo the amount of players who left the game altogether when their raiding guild died is much larger than u think. not many decide to play the game solo and drop into LFR and not many either have the contacts or the inclination to join another guild and 'start again'. They stop playing.

    As anecdotal evidence i played through Wrath in the same guild 25man raiding. We had around 40 regular raiders and another 20 socials. I was an officer and knew all of them very well. To my knowledge only 3 or 4 of these players r still playing Wow. I have lots of them on my facebook and keep in touch with the entire network through them. Most left throughout cataclysm when LFR was part of the game.

    Out of the 3 or 4 still playing i know one has told me that she does LFR and doesnt raid anymore.... she actually told me this a couple of days ago in a facebook chat.

    A little more detail about my Wrath guild was the average age was around 35 and we only had 2 or 3 teenagers. We had 7 real life couples and 2 of them met ingame . I tell u this to help u judge the demographic. We are 60 players who didnt leave because we 'grew up' we were all old already! lol I cannot speak for everyone but to generalise we all left the game cos the game overall lost its charm. Nobody i know complained about difficult cata content or LFR, they left cos the whole game wasnt the same anymore, or at least not enough for them to stay.

    Therefore imo raiders are much more likely to stop playing altogether rather than drop into LFR or go join other guilds.

  16. #516
    Quote Originally Posted by Gilian View Post
    It's part of why I quit. I only was at 8/16 HC though so maybe my opinion doesn't count.
    Right. That you were not done with the content shows that "it's too easy" was just a rationalization, not an actuality.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  17. #517
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Right. That you were not done with the content shows that "it's too easy" was just a rationalization, not an actuality.
    People quiting because the game is made too easy/boring isn't ridiculous. And the second part was me being sarcastic.

  18. #518
    Quote Originally Posted by Mjolnirlfw View Post
    I can only speak for my own personal experience here, but I have seen a ton of people who would otherwise be very willing to commit the time necessary to clear normal and heroic difficulty become completely turned off by groups of "hardcore" raiders who simply have some sort of superiority complex, and speak down to these players regarding setup of character, playstyle, stats they've witnessed in-game..etc.

    Obviously, not everyone is ready to raid in a normal/heroic without some sort of guidance, but there are tactful ways of offering help/assistance instead of forcing/griefing it upon someone. I have seen this happen plenty on my server, unfortunately.
    I wonder how much of that is truth and how much is just exagerrated rumours about "these horrible elitists". Some people actually do believe that those "hardcore raiders" live and breathe the game, don't have anything else to do other than playing ... and that they are deliberately being dicks when ignoring all sort of strange questions. I certainly had that happen - coming back from afk to see some silly /w asking me for advice and then getting all angry at me not answering - or maybe missing some random whisper while doing something else. Thus another elitist jerk is born.

    Not to say there aren't many of actual jerks, true, but it's not always that obvious. That's not even getting into more serious things - like the inevitable "Hey, New Guy, you did listen to my explanation and you know what you're supposed to do? It was *just* my imagination and I didn't *really* hear you snoring through your mic, right? Cool, let's pull and... wait, what the hell are you... oh great, wipe..." But hey, it's obviously that damn elitist raid leader fault for only asking him 5 times if he understood everything. I mean, seriously, people who get removed from guilds for various reasons (and we do it extremely rarely) sometimes keep telling amazing stories that aren't really grounded in reality. You learn some pretty interesting stuff that didn't really happen, but sounds pretty convincing - and it would fit with those evil elitists anyway.

    As for the topic itself - I blame removing separate lockouts more than LFR... or especially applications. Apps are generally there to see if this random person is willing to spend whole two minutes writing few words and can actually understand simple question. Most of the time, these barely matter, although you get few cases which make you go "ok, this has to be trolling". But if someone can't be bothered to do any of those, he certainly wouldn't bother spending hours wiping on some random boss - or listen for tactics longer than few seconds.

    Of course, just like with "elitists jerks" mentioned above, there are plenty of guild which have silly requirements - it's mostly case of some low-middle level guilds who believe themselves to be far better than they really are.

    As for LFR? I doubt it affects heroic level raiding at all - except for possibly overpowered set bonuses/trinkets, that is. From my experience, if there's a person who stops raiding seriously and just limits themselves to LFR, it's someone who would've otherwise quit the game anyway. People stop playing (or "playing a lot", at least) for various reasons and removing LFR wouldn't really change that.

    New people? Again, lockouts. PUGing is pretty much non-existant due to lack of 25 man raiders doing 10s in their spare time or general increase in difficulty of normal. Oh, sure, you keep hearing about those mythical groups that easily go 12/12 and maybe do couple heroics along the way - conveniently ignoring the fact that it's actually one of few "superservers" and it was group made of 13/13H alts. Flexi might help with this, but it remains to be seen if it works out well. There's really no good starting point for fresh people, since LFR has become a pretty toxic environment, with both hostile players and place where you pretty much ignore any and all mechanics while hoping to win gear lottery every week.

    And of course, last but not least, Blizzard made some retarded decisions in this expansion. *Once again*, as if they didn't learn from previous expansions. Increasing Cata difficulty after 30% ICC was hilarious (I might be a heroic level raider, but I'm also a realist and realize that sudden shift in difficulty was absurd), and in this one, they had more of those.

    Even ignoring the difficulty (Elegon mostly... and Garalon's 6 minute original berserk, which brilliant mind thought that one up...), they removed plenty convenient things for no reason. Reputation gain - nope, do dailes. New method of getting gear from raid bosses... except you need to do dailies. Want to spend you Valor points? Do some dailies. Also, you don't *really* need that mass summoning guild perk, have a ... well, whatever PoS replacement there actually is, I don't even remember. Cauldrons? Pff, convenience is for pussies. Also, best stat food will require - you guessed it - more dailes! Oh, and no more 5 mans with improved loot. Do scenarios. And LFR - except you will have to wait for 3 major patches before we actually make drop rates bearable. And dailies, can't forget the dailies!

    It's incredible how Blizz likes to make some retarded decisions in X.0 patches and then it takes 2-3 different ones to fix those issues. Except this isn't 2005 anymore and there are alternatives to WoW and raiding itself.
    Last edited by KaPe; 2013-06-27 at 01:56 AM.

  19. #519
    Brewmaster Kiry's Avatar
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    I dont know. I dont disagree nor agree. There's quite a few perspectives. As a raider since Vanilla and a current HC raider, I'm running out of interest or time. has nothing to do with "easy", that's a perspective. I'm getting older, and frankly there are other things more worth my interest or time.

    The fun I have is with the group I have, the sense of accomplishment and shinies. but..it's waning. Age of the game maybe.
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  20. #520
    The only fact that is a fact is that everyone is right in their reasons...

    No one thing killed it all, its a giant heap of 100's of reasons, all just as different as the people who quit.
    Some are burnt, some its too easy, some its too hard, some LRF is enough, some dont like elitists, some dont like nubs... on and on and on. The cycle never stops because there are 2 million or more people that have quit since MoP came out...

    The only thing that matters to you is your reason.

    My personal reason is because of the shared lock outs destroyed our 25 man progression guild at the end of Wrath.
    I have tried to keep playing but find myself logging in for only 3 nights a week for a 10 man with some close friends but in the past few weeks they are all like... whats the point?
    I had to agree with them... we no longer raid at all.

    This is all coming from a dude that had 2 accounts full up with level 80s in Wrath all in full 251+ gear...

    Everything comes to an end...

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