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  1. #661
    Immortal Granyala's Avatar
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    SWTOR had a huge lore and following from Star Wars, but apparently even this is not enough.
    Did you play it?

    - Lag
    - VERY high system requirements for fluid play, my old C2D E6600 System with 4 gig RAM and a 8800GTX couldn't provide it
    - moronic story cinematics (I HATED when the NPCs went on with "wongo wongo" for 5 minutes and I had to read subtitles)
    - Idiotic design decisions (No more orange items at maximum level, stupid crystal binding)

    Class quests were awesome though. Very fun concept.

    I prefer binding 1 nerd to my game for 6 years then 5 mainstream facerollers to my game for 3 months.
    I don't think it's that simple anymore. Gamers have changed. Most of them don't show any loyalty these days.

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  2. #662
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    I don't think it's that simple anymore. Gamers have changed. Most of them don't show any loyalty these days.
    Who are to blame, the gamers, or the games. Thats the question...

  3. #663
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    I don't think you can point to LFR and say "Raid guilds are dying because you can just clear on LFR". There are a lot of people, I'm willing to bet, who do clear LFR and then want something more, but then find the ramp-up to normal mode like going from climbing up a hill to climbing up a mountain (to say nothing of heroic modes). That's been my experience, at least. The difficulty (or rather, the complexity and the number of "failure is a wipe" gimmicks) keeps scaling up, so more and more people just say screw it, it's not worth doing, because there isn't a good return on investment. Why spend 6/9/12 hours a week (in my experience most raid guilds run around three nights a week for around 3 hours a night; sometimes it's two nights, sometimes it's four) on frustrating content where you have to execute moves perfectly or risk a wipe (and then risk being yelled/cussed at by somebody who thinks they're a tough guy) for better gear just to come back next week and do the same thing all over again?

    When I first started to play WoW I was so excited about raiding and killing bosses and working as a team. The polish has since worn off and I see it for what it is: Doing the same thing every week, perhaps killing a new boss while you're still progressing (and at this point it's a boss you've almost certainly seen already in some form or another i.e. on normal if you raid heroic, or LFR if you raid normal), for not much gain.

    Raidguilds are dying, in short, because raiding is boring and not fun, especially not when you can go from LFR (too easy) into normal modes and get smashed against bosses because there's a big difference between the two. Couple that with increasing complexity with class abilities and boss mechanics, and you get people that used to be able to raid and enjoy themselves no longer being up to par, so either you hurt friendships and feelings and tell Bob "Sorry, you aren't good enough to raid with us anymore" or you keep Bob around and wipe because his reaction time is a bit slow and the boss mechanics are that unforgiving now. Flex isn't the answer here because it's basically just saying that folks like Bob get shoved off into the "little league" with a sarcastic "Hey but you can still down the bosses" when it's not that Bob wants to down the bosses on kiddie mode, he wants to down the bosses with his friends in the real deal. The real deal requires a bit too much coordination, a bit too much "perfect execution", a bit too much optimal rotation.

    Also re: the Ghostcrawler statement. The sad fact is so many people DON'T believe that's true. In an ideal world yes, guilds that are still wiping on Horridon would take a step back and evaluate what's going wrong, and change it and improve to beat him. In the real world, however, people get tired and burned out and say to hell with this, why am I wasting my time. The irony though is that Ghostcrawler is also the one who said that ToT was tuned appropriately when many guilds are just giving up, and also the one who is introducing flex which is just more segregation of the playerbase into very bad/bad/good/very good (equivalent to LFR/Flex/Normal/Heroic respectively), knowing full well that if Siege Normal is tuned to the same difficulty as ToT was, you'll run into the same problem: These types of players and guilds will clear LFR, get far and eventually clear Flex, wipe on the first few bosses in normal until they give up, and never see heroic.

    I think a big part of the problem is the notion that they A) Needed heroic mode in the first place, and B) Heroic mode needed to be for the entire raid. I understand Ghostcrawler's points when he says they switched because they would eventually run out of Ulduar-style "do X to activate hard mode", but I think hard mode should have only been for a handful of bosses and not the whole raid (the "wing" bosses, as it were). Right now another major issue is that heroic mode is the only real mode in the eyes of the community; everything else is irrelevant, but only a tiny minority get into and clear heroic mode. The model from Vanilla and TBC has essentially never changed in theory, just there are "easier" versions added for the progressively unwashed masses so you get more statistics than just 3% or whatever seeing the raid. You CAN'T realistically be content with only doing Normal mode, even if you as a person and a guild are fine with it, there's peer and community pressure that normal mode "doesn't matter" and that heroic mode is what counts, so there's pressure to attempt heroic mode, and when there's pressure to attempt something there's stigma for failure with "You guy's cant beat heroic X? Lol noobz that boss is easy" and similar from the community swamp.

    The more and more I think about it, the more I come to the conclusion Blizzard needs to eventually move away from the EQ model where raiding is the pinnacle of activity. Most games coming out focus on small group play, if not solo play, with larger content similar to raids thrown in on an equal level for that "let's get a ton of people and kill the giant boss" fun factor. That's the direction MMOs are headed, and Blizzard COULD do it (albeit with a lot of teeth gnashing from the community, but you get that with every design decision and sometimes you have to man up and stay the course for the good of the future). I envision a WoW where you have the following endgame content, all at equivalent levels:

    1) Daily and weekly quests for points/marks/rep (not nearly as many as we have now, but sort of like ToT + Barrens)
    2) Heroic dungeons tuned like Challenge Mode dungeons without the time limit
    3) A handful of small raids that drop things like cloaks/trinkets/rings or weapons; I'm talking like between 1-4 bosses, with around two instances, plus a world boss or two, perhaps some kind of "open instance" world boss like the old dragons or Oondasta
    4) Something similar to proving grounds, or proving grounds itself, for solo play
    5) Heroic Scenarios for small group play, with more frequent/tuned rewards

    This is the future of gaming: something for everyone without the pressure to raid in some format whether it's LFR, Flex, Normal or Heroic. Do you only play with a handful of your good IRL friends? Focus on heroic scenarios and/or the CM-style heroic dungeons. Have a lot of people? Go and kill the big dragon(s). Play at odd times? Focus on the solo content and try to get a scenario/dungeon/boss group when you can.
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  4. #664
    Immortal Granyala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by willemh View Post
    Who are to blame, the gamers, or the games. Thats the question...
    Tough one.
    Maybe companies that realized that there is nice short term profit to be made from gimpy gamers in large numbers?

    "Never underestimate the power of stupid things in large numbers!"
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    Personally: I blame consoles.. since they are the enemy. :P

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  5. #665
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    Did you play it?

    - Lag
    - VERY high system requirements for fluid play, my old C2D E6600 System with 4 gig RAM and a 8800GTX couldn't provide it
    - moronic story cinematics (I HATED when the NPCs went on with "wongo wongo" for 5 minutes and I had to read subtitles)
    - Idiotic design decisions (No more orange items at maximum level, stupid crystal binding)

    Class quests were awesome though. Very fun concept.


    I don't think it's that simple anymore. Gamers have changed. Most of them don't show any loyalty these days.
    Yes I have, I even have my Collector's Edition box collecting dust under my bed

    You're basically asking that an MMO has to come out perfect in every aspect. Have huge lore, provide tons of content at the beginning, must be super responsive and no lag. No wonder more and more people are saying there is basically no room in the western MMO market other than WoW.

    Even WoW must adapt itself constantly or face hemorrhaging players. Blizzard must understand that gamers now in 2013 are vastly different from gamers back in 2004. LFR was a good start and Flex Raiding is on its way. If WoW kept its hardcore raiding system from BC, I would bet it wouldn't have half the playerbase it does right now.

  6. #666
    I ran a pretty successful 25man raid guild , top 100 world, for wotlk and cata. When MoP came ,i quit the game since quite a few people left the game aswell, and it wasnt fun anymore for me. We were a grp of 30 odd raiders, who played together for a long time and about 15 socials.- I know only 3 are still playing wow- Yes, 42 of us quit wow in a span of 1 month tops. All of them i know on a personell level.
    People get tired of playing the same game forever- Eventually people quit. Question however remains, are the new people joining wow more than people who are leaving? I guess this is one of the reasons why so many guilds , esp 25mans, have now died. Famous ones too.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-29 at 12:37 PM ----------

    Another point to note, of all those people that quit wow alongside me, atleast 20 of them including me play LoL- We all play together from time to time. Is LoL also taking away players from the mmo market? It can be 1 of the many factors. The genre switch.

  7. #667
    There could be something else to consider. I stopped raiding Heroics and dropped down to LFR for no reason other than life. When i started playing WoW and raiding at high levels I had all the time in the world and far less commitments. As I got older, the amount of time I had to devote to being online to raid grew smaller, I kept it up as long as I could but these days, I just can't justify it. Perhaps the average age of a hardcore raider has gone up over time and they are in the same boat? I don't know. If that is the case, then it would make sense that the new younger players coming into the game may not understand what it means to raid at a high level and why it is fun. I'm Not saying there aren't younger raiders, there are plenty of them, perhaps there just are not as many of them that are required to keep the scene florishing. It may also be that there are plenty of new players, younger and older, that want to raid but simply don't have the skills required at that level. Remember, since wrath, the amount of skill required to play wow has gone down quite a bit. I remember walking into a cata dungeon and being asked what CC was. Perhaps that level of skill is much harder to come by in an applicant these days. I know when i was guild leader during Cata, finding people was a nightmare. The choices were slim and we were forced, more times than we would have liked, to take a chance on someone green. We even had someone join once that had to be told they needed to eat food for 10 seconds to get the well fed buff.

  8. #668
    Immortal Granyala's Avatar
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    You're basically asking that an MMO has to come out perfect in every aspect. Have huge lore, provide tons of content at the beginning, must be super responsive and no lag. No wonder more and more people are saying there is basically no room in the western MMO market other than WoW.
    There should be no lag. GW2 managed to be as fluid as WoW.
    Fluidity, lore I can relate to and a fun combat system is the alpha and omega for me.
    Content can always be added later on.

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  9. #669
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    There should be no lag. GW2 managed to be as fluid as WoW.
    Fluidity, lore I can relate to and a fun combat system is the alpha and omega for me.
    Content can always be added later on.
    Huh? I lag far worse on GW than SWTOR.

  10. #670
    One of the main issues is market pressure. The film industry is in the same boat.
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  11. #671
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    Quote Originally Posted by willemh View Post
    Who are to blame, the gamers, or the games. Thats the question...
    The gamers. Jumping from one thing to another is the hallmark of the modern civilization. Changing cars, changing phones, changing games.

  12. #672
    Pandaren Monk
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    Quote Originally Posted by willemh View Post
    Who are to blame, the gamers, or the games. Thats the question...
    Thats actually a very good point...

    There is still a very strong argument that the direction of Blizzard has been 'controlled' and 'guided' by Activision since they got involved. Its no coincidence that Wows design direction changed at this time... dont forget Activision r hated for the one main reason. That reason is that they have a reputation for buying up successful franchises, milking the shit out of them financially, then dumping them. Guitar Hero is the best example of this, although if u know anything about the COD franchise thats very much happened there too...

    Is this idea of 'everyone wants casual gaming' the image that the powerhouses in gaming, like Activision, wants to project? Therefore convincing their customers that they do really want such shallow and disposable games...

    Is there really no market at all for the 'nerdy gamers' or 'pro gamers', those players who invest more time than is healthy and their gaming standards r much higher... Is this gaming community really as dead as everyone here seems to think?

  13. #673
    Quote Originally Posted by Arothand View Post
    3) A handful of small raids that drop things like cloaks/trinkets/rings or weapons; I'm talking like between 1-4 bosses, with around two instances, plus a world boss or two, perhaps some kind of "open instance" world boss like the old dragons or Oondasta
    Kinda this - t11 and t14 were really good tiers in my eyes (y my veyr perosnal opinion) cause even if ur guild was wiping in 1 raid if u felt like u wanted something more as player u could pug other raid - and didnt had to automatickly switch guild to do so - in ToT its impossible u cant dynamicaly choose bosses that u want to do -_- thats why i have very silent hope that in t16 will get 2 separate raid instances one in vale and one in orgrimar >< although we probably wont :/

  14. #674
    I am Murloc! Firebert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endemonadia View Post
    Is there really no market at all for the 'nerdy gamers' or 'pro gamers', those players who invest more time than is healthy and their gaming standards r much higher... Is this gaming community really as dead as everyone here seems to think?
    WoW's not the game for that. Starcraft is if you want to stay with Blizzard. Otherwise, League of Legends is another.
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  15. #675
    Quote Originally Posted by Tarien View Post
    I'd love to see where his evidence is. How is it that WoW grows during Vanilla/TBC when the game was all about challenge, and then shrinks when everything becomes increasingly less challenging. How does your messiah - I mean messenger - explain this?
    Sorry, but what was hard during those times? When I was playing back then I didn't find anything particularly hard but rather time consuming. And game was much more solo oriented back then then it is now. If you wanted good gear you didn't have to raid, you could get it from regular 5 mans, gear wasn't epic but those blues were rather good and you could use them in second raid tear.
    You wanted epics? then you could just do Battlegrounds, AV - rather free epic quality 2h mace + some other items, AB - took longer time but you could solo up to shoulders, stave and dagger + some blue off peaces. Wanted more epics? do Stratholm live and farm orbs and then buy BoE's from AH what raiders farmed and were selling.
    during BC to get epics you just had to do few Arena games, grind reps to Exalted and some heroics which was pretty much puggable at midle of Expansion.

    Sorry about my terrible English.

  16. #676
    Bloodsail Admiral Sturmbringe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    Did you play it?

    - Lag
    - VERY high system requirements for fluid play, my old C2D E6600 System with 4 gig RAM and a 8800GTX couldn't provide it
    - moronic story cinematics (I HATED when the NPCs went on with "wongo wongo" for 5 minutes and I had to read subtitles)
    - Idiotic design decisions (No more orange items at maximum level, stupid crystal binding)

    Class quests were awesome though. Very fun concept.
    Yes, I have been playing SWTOR since release (and I still play it) and what you are saying is biased crap for the most part.

    1. There is no lag at all. I have got atm 75ms and I am in Greece. I never ever remembering having ANY lag whatsoever.

    2. I am playing at 1920X1080 ULTRA (all settings at max) with my Core 2 Extreme QX9650 (made in November 2007) and a GTX 580 SOC and I am getting great smooth play and excellent FPS.

    Your Core 2 E6600 wasn't even good back in 2006 when it was released. It has got insufficient cache, 2 cores and it is very slow.

    http://ark.intel.com/products/27250/...z-1066-MHz-FSB

    The 8800 GTX is good for playing Warcraft III, Rome:Total War and Shogun: Total War, not for playing a state-of-the art game like SWTOR.

    3. Indeed BIOWARE tend to fail a lot, but still SWTOR is a lot better than Kung Fu Pandas+Pokemon.
    NINJA TURTLES as the next playable WoW race/class combo. WoW has got Kung Fu Pandas, Pokemon and recently even Transformers in it, so I don't see how Ninja Turtles would be any less pathetic than current "WoW" is.

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  17. #677
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sturmbringe View Post
    3. Indeed BIOWARE tend to fail a lot, but still SWTOR is a lot better than Kung Fu Pandas+Pokemon.
    Yeah it's so good it failed miserably... this makes a whole lot of sense

  18. #678
    Bloodsail Admiral Sturmbringe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomana View Post
    Yeah it's so good it failed miserably... this makes a whole lot of sense
    At least THEY didn't lose 4 million+ subscribers.
    NINJA TURTLES as the next playable WoW race/class combo. WoW has got Kung Fu Pandas, Pokemon and recently even Transformers in it, so I don't see how Ninja Turtles would be any less pathetic than current "WoW" is.

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  19. #679
    Quote Originally Posted by corebit View Post
    You're basically asking that an MMO has to come out perfect in every aspect. Have huge lore, provide tons of content at the beginning, must be super responsive and no lag. No wonder more and more people are saying there is basically no room in the western MMO market other than WoW.
    He wasn't asking for it. He was explaining that the market is asking for it. So, yes, it's very hard for a new AAA MMO to succeed now. Too bad, so sad.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
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  20. #680
    Fluffy Kitten Thage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sturmbringe View Post
    At least THEY didn't lose 4 million+ subscribers.
    They sank 500 million + into it and it tanked in a matter of months. I wish it didn't, TOR is a fun game, but when you sink that kind of money into an MMO and it goes free-play in a matter of months after release, it doesn't matter how many subs you lost when the competition is still maintaining a pay-to-play business model.

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