Page 35 of 46 FirstFirst ...
25
33
34
35
36
37
45
... LastLast
  1. #681
    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    WoW's not the game for that. Starcraft is if you want to stay with Blizzard. Otherwise, League of Legends is another.
    Every reference to LoL on here says its the most casual freindly and accessible game ever created... far away from the clique im referencing.

    i think ur getting confused with games which r played at live events and classing them as 'pro-gamers'. Sure, in a way thats right but thats not the demographic im talking about... im talking about the guys who take their games very seriously, its their whole life, and play them for almost every waking hour! lol

    Those guys who r being bashed on the forums here recently, the 'leets'.

  2. #682
    My theory is the majority of the current player base were all those 13 year olds all those years ago that were never allowed to raid or were treated badly in pugs when others found out their age, however now that they are of age they are power tripping like crazy making unrealistic Ilvl requirements to join their guilds or pugs.

  3. #683
    For Hardcore Guilds:

    -People no longer want to dedicate a huge part of their real life to raiding. The people who were students or simply had plenty of time a few years ago are now grown up and have other duties.
    -WoW in general isn't interesting enough anymore and raiding in a hardcore guild wont give you much other loot than in a semi hardcore guild. You can't even use your imba PVE gear in PVP anymore etc...
    -A lot of people who have been doing hardcore raiding for over 7 years now are complete morons, its hard for adult people to aclimate in such guilds, people new to hardcore raiding don't really get a chance.

    For Semi-Hardcore Guilds:

    -Applicants are often either to bad (nearly no experience at all because they only did LFR the last year) or have too high expecations (they want to kill a new boss every raidevening and are disappointed when you have to do progress for 4-5months).
    -Though the big instances are nice, they also have the disadvantage of making progress really long... even with 2-4 Raids per week people get fed up rather quickly after a few months.
    -Like Hardcore Guilds the Semi Hardcore Guilds are hurting from the general decline of interest in WoW.

    Casual / Bad Semi-Hardcore Guilds:
    -LFR.

  4. #684
    The Lightbringer
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Silvermoon City
    Posts
    3,631
    Quote Originally Posted by Sturmbringe View Post
    At least THEY didn't lose 4 million+ subscribers.
    Yeah, because they didn't even have them in the first place XD

    BC/LK raider ('07-'10)

  5. #685
    I am Murloc! Firebert's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Dat Ingurlund, brrrrrap
    Posts
    5,216
    Quote Originally Posted by Endemonadia View Post
    Every reference to LoL on here says its the most casual freindly and accessible game ever created... far away from the clique im referencing.

    i think ur getting confused with games which r played at live events and classing them as 'pro-gamers'. Sure, in a way thats right but thats not the demographic im talking about... im talking about the guys who take their games very seriously, its their whole life, and play them for almost every waking hour! lol
    I hope you know that there are Starcraft schools in Korea, and LoL has a giant multimillion dollar prize pool with teams with sponsors, the whole shabang?

    I think that those players fit your demographic you're after.
    37 + (3*7) + (3*7)
    W/L/Death count: Wolf: 0/1/1 | Mafia: 0/5/5 | TPR: 0/2/2
    SK: 0/1/1 | VT: 1.5/3.5/5 | Cult: 1/0/1
    Legendary Overlooked

  6. #686
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    I don't think it's that simple anymore. Gamers have changed. Most of them don't show any loyalty these days.
    Hu ?
    Why should someone be "loyal" to a game if the game he liked did a complete 180 on its design philosophy and became the opposite of what he found engaging ?

    If you drive away your core customers because you're targeting the new fickle market, don't act surprised when you slowly lose the said core...

  7. #687
    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    I hope you know that there are Starcraft schools in Korea, and LoL has a giant multimillion dollar prize pool with teams with sponsors, the whole shabang?
    Sure... but that doesnt mean that every player of LoL or SC are pro gamers.

    There are Pro gamers in pretty much every game ever made. So u referencing the games to insinuate all of their players r pro isnt accurate.

    I used the 'pro-gamer' reference to show a demographic of gamers. Pro-gamers was just one group which goes into the demographic i was making. The demographic was of the players themselves, not the games they play.

    Here is the point i was making>>>>

    Quote Originally Posted by Endemonadia View Post
    Thats actually a very good point...

    There is still a very strong argument that the direction of Blizzard has been 'controlled' and 'guided' by Activision since they got involved. Its no coincidence that Wows design direction changed at this time... dont forget Activision r hated for the one main reason. That reason is that they have a reputation for buying up successful franchises, milking the shit out of them financially, then dumping them. Guitar Hero is the best example of this, although if u know anything about the COD franchise thats very much happened there too...

    Is this idea of 'everyone wants casual gaming' the image that the powerhouses in gaming, like Activision, wants to project? Therefore convincing their customers that they do really want such shallow and disposable games...

    Is there really no market at all for the 'nerdy gamers' or 'pro gamers', those players who invest more time than is healthy and their gaming standards r much higher... Is this gaming community really as dead as everyone here seems to think?
    Last edited by Endemonadia; 2013-06-29 at 02:05 PM.

  8. #688
    The reason this game is dieing out is because of the age of the game and the lack of rewards other than gear in normal/heroic. Back in BC and vanilla you knew who was good ..who was bad based on the gear they had. Now every average joe has gear that is at least 3/4th of that of a "hardcore" raider. The only way for a "hardcore" raider prove that he is above everyone else is through world of logs and/or dates on achievements that every average joe will have when the next tier comes out.

    There is also a lack of incentive in wow for the player to further improve his skills. It's got to the point where the player gets frustrated with a boss and decides on 2 things.

    1. I'll get better and not stand in that.
    2. fuck it it'll get nerfed cause its too hard and ill get it later in the tier.

    #2 is why raiding guilds are dieing. There are roughly the same amount of raid guilds out there but theres such a lower pool of players who are worth a damn to recruit.

    just my 2 cents

  9. #689
    Bloodsail Admiral Sturmbringe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Patras, Achaea, Greece
    Posts
    1,101
    Quote Originally Posted by Endemonadia View Post
    Sure... but that doesnt mean that every player of LoL or SC are pro gamers.

    There are Pro gamers in pretty much every game ever made. So u referencing the games to insinuate all of their players r pro isnt accurate.

    I used the 'pro-gamer' reference to show a demographic of gamers. Pro-gamers was just one group which goes into the demographic i was making. The demographic was of the players themselves, not the games they play.

    Here is the point i was making>>>>
    A "pro gamer" is someone who is getting paid by a sponsor to play a game. The only guild I know that fit that description is/was Ensidia (German).

    Any person who is a die-hard fan of a game and they spend many hours every day playing a game and yet they are not getting paid by a sponsor to do so would be "enthusiasts", "unemployed" or designated with other epithets that stem out of the joke about one's mother and her basement.
    NINJA TURTLES as the next playable WoW race/class combo. WoW has got Kung Fu Pandas, Pokemon and recently even Transformers in it, so I don't see how Ninja Turtles would be any less pathetic than current "WoW" is.

  10. #690
    Quote Originally Posted by Sturmbringe View Post
    A "pro gamer" is someone who is getting paid by a sponsor to play a game. The only guild I know that fit that description is/was Ensidia (German).

    Any person who is a die-hard fan of a game and they spend many hours every day playing a game and yet they are not getting paid by a sponsor to do so would be "enthusiasts", "unemployed" or designated with other epithets that stem out of the joke about one's mother and her basement.
    Yes... and that still works with my point.

    Pro-gamers was only 1 type of player which fits into the demographic i was making. To generalise even more, the kind of player i was referencing is the kind that takes his games very seriously. The kind that eats, lives and breathes his games. Those r called 'leets' in Wow and theyre now pretty much hated, and tbh most have probably left Wow.

    The accurate and complete definition of 'Pro-Gamer' is actually totally irrelvant to the point i was making...

    I was refencing this demographic to ask, has this market of gamers really died out as people on this forum seem to think? Or is it just the big boys in the industry trying to convince us that they dont exist anymore?

  11. #691
    The Lightbringer
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Silvermoon City
    Posts
    3,631
    Quote Originally Posted by Endemonadia View Post
    I was refencing this demographic to ask, has this market of gamers really died out as people on this forum seem to think? Or is it just the big boys in the industry trying to convince us that they dont exist anymore?
    Died out, no. Severely diminished, yes. It is no longer the youngster's priority to spend a lot of time on just one PC game. This segment has been replaced (at least in EU) by several other things - mobile games, social apps, consoles and MOBAs. And the older players simply got too old and moved on, willingly or unwillingly. This doesn't mean there are no more such players, but they are few and far between (even more so than in the past).

    BC/LK raider ('07-'10)

  12. #692
    Hardcore guilds are dying imo because every xpac their requirements become even more ridiculous. Hardcore raiders in vanilla and tbc raided a third to a quarter of the time such guilds raid now during progression. Several such guilds expect you to have at least one alt at nearly the same level of gear. And these requirements increasingly trickle down to the server first guilds since they view them as the aspirational standards.

    Most importantly for me as someone who has been a raid leader from Kara till DS is the fact that the game offers no support for those of us who organize raids. Not that I know what the game could do really. Raid leading is thankless and stressful. Sooner or later you end up frustrated and that makes everyone's experience worse while raiding.

    Finally the game offers no skill progression or built-in tutorials for new players. And the annoying thing is, it would have been so easy in Cata with the world redesign to do such a thing. Add mobs while leveling that use attacks that have to be avoided or they will do significant damage (or outright kill you). Use the technology to identify the player's spec and perhaps give mobs an additional ability that forces its class to use its utility; melee should learn to interrupt early, casters should know how to kite etc. I swear, most new healers don't even know what dispels are these days. You can make leveling educational without it being frustrating. Make the pace at which you kill mobs fast enough, add vanity items, fun quests between grinding, more big mobs or large packs of weak mobs that make you feel like a hero. How can people recruit raiders if most of them can't raid to save their lives?

  13. #693
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomana View Post
    Died out, no. Severely diminished, yes. It is no longer the youngster's priority to spend a lot of time on just one PC game. This segment has been replaced (at least in EU) by several other things - mobile games, social apps, consoles and MOBAs. And the older players simply got too old and moved on, willingly or unwillingly. This doesn't mean there are no more such players, but they are few and far between (even more so than in the past).
    Thankyou Tomana, someone actually understood my post enough to pass comment

    On topic - dont u think that the market that Activision know and understand the most was the console generation and consequently thier influence has aided the pushing of Wow into that kind of gaming model? I mean with 'click to que' multiplayer gaming design and more solo content, stuff u dont need others to help u play.

    The PC gamer market is actually increasing significantly the past year and consoles has tailed off, so are they really aiming at the right market?

    Doesnt this show the serious gamers are still around? And possibly growing in numbers?

  14. #694
    My 2 cents...People used to raid for 3 reasons.
    1. To see end game content.
    2. It was fun.
    3. Gear upgrades.

    LFR gives everyone the chance to see end game content and get ok gear upgrades. It is on easy mode so when you recruit this raider their expectations are kill boss get loot. When you start wiping and learning a new boss in a real raid they are easily frustrated and either magically lose their internet connection or can't seem to make the next raid which is making it harder for raiding guilds to retain quality raiders or teach new raiders due to lack on commitment to get through the content.
    The only way I see to fix this problem is to make LFR gear blue quality (since everyone wants epics) and not release LFR content until it is 1 tier behind. Then they could always release final endgame content a few months before an x-pac.
    As far as N raiding goes you step from easy mode to make a mistake and it has a high probability of causing a wipe. That in a sense takes some of the fun out of it because nobody wants to be the booger on the finger of the raid group that just caused the wipe. That is how Heroic modes should be.
    The first 3 xpacs were alot more forgiving as far as raid bosses go (other than Ulduar) and you didn't have LFR and people were excited to raid and would sit on standby for a group, now you get people with the attitude of I can just run LFR this week. WoW used to be about raiding and gear, now it is just a time filler that herds the masses through the content because everyone has the right to see all the content, and the flex raiding idea is going to fail because there are many guilds that are struggling to get their 10 people together to raid.
    I have one of those guilds, and after having a 10-25 man raiding guild that started in Kara we are about to shut the guild down because people cant sommit to 3 nights of raiding for these reasons.

  15. #695
    The Lightbringer
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Silvermoon City
    Posts
    3,631
    Quote Originally Posted by Endemonadia View Post
    On topic - dont u think that the market that Activision know and understand the most was the console generation and consequently thier influence has aided the pushing of Wow into that kind of gaming model? I mean with 'click to que' multiplayer gaming design and more solo content, stuff u dont need others to help u play.
    Consoles are a very complicated beast and you have to consider it dynamically. Personally, I think that the generation of nerd/hardcore gamers was actually raised with the first console games (or their equivalent on early computers) which were hard, sometimes absurdly so - such as all the platformers, space shooters and whatever else you can think of. Oh yeah, and Zelda and early FFs . This forged a (very limited in time) generation of gamers accustomed to putting long hours into a single game to finish it. In my opinion, this was the foundation stone for the T4C/Runescape/EQ/LA/early WoW time frame.

    However, at some point, the prices of PCs went down, and console designers wanted to broaden their market with more family-oriented products which were simpler to play. Also, a console being less expensive than a PC, the cost of games is a much more important part of revenue for consoles than for PCs. Basically, it's like printers and cartridges today - the printer is cheap but the company catches up on the consumables costs. Hence quickly released games which can be played in a few hours and then shelved.

    This, coupled to other social phenomena entirely outside of the VG sector, switched the console sector to a more instant gratification model. And at some point, the PC games just had to follow the trend.

    Quote Originally Posted by Endemonadia View Post
    The PC gamer market is actually increasing significantly the past year and consoles has tailed off, so are they really aiming at the right market?
    PC gaming market growing does not mean much by itself when it comes to the casual vs hardcore games debate. Shooters and MOBAs are played on PCs, yet they do not require the time commitment of MMORPGs. Actually, the PC market when it comes to pre-assembled stuff is in the toilet. For gaming it is not as crucial because a lot of hardcore gamers make their own rigs. But outside of that, people switch more and more to mobiles and tablets. Consoles are tailing off because the seventh generation is old and the eighth isn't out yet, so I tend to believe this is temporary.

    Quote Originally Posted by Endemonadia View Post
    Doesnt this show the serious gamers are still around? And possibly growing in numbers?
    Maybe, but social panels realized would tend to prove the contrary, at least in my country (France). Facebook and mobiles/tablets are taking over.

    BC/LK raider ('07-'10)

  16. #696
    Legendary! Granyala's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Arkon-III
    Posts
    6,819
    Yes, I have been playing SWTOR since release (and I still play it) and what you are saying is biased crap for the most part.

    1. There is no lag at all. I have got atm 75ms and I am in Greece. I never ever remembering having ANY lag whatsoever.
    Heh... I knew that some SWTOR fan would immediately come out and try to "prove me wrong".
    Believe me, buddy, when I say that A LOT of people had these ability lag problems, especially in battlegrounds.

    Remember: I played that game for the first month or two, so ofc I can't say what they have improved upon. And I'm sure that they have.

    Ifalna Sha'yoko on Twitter and Armory - Occasionally unfaithful to WoW with my Adorable Miqo'te - (ノಠ益ಠ)ノ彡┻━ ┻

  17. #697
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomana View Post
    PC gaming market growing does not mean much by itself when it comes to the casual vs hardcore games debate. Shooters and MOBAs are played on PCs, yet they do not require the time commitment of MMORPGs.
    Yep agreed that FPS and MOBAs r doing very well on PC and that accounts for a large part of the PC increase... but these gamers r still the ones im talking about. i think ur thinking of the Wow 'pro-gamers' as exclusive to MMOs or MMORPGs. Im not saying that.

    Im talking the obsessed gamers across all platforms, so my point is that if they cant get their challenging content in something like Wow then they r simply going elsewhere. They wont necessarily stick to the same gaming genre.

    My point is that from reading these forums the community here would have u believe that the 'leets' and 'pro-gamers' r a rare breed, i think all thats happened is most of them left this game and r continuing to leave. And theyre giong to all sorts of other games to get their gaming fix. I see no convincing argument that this kind of gamer is a dying breed. I actually see the evidence as the opposite.

    These guys wanna showoff their gaming skillz and theyll gravitate to a game which they can do that. Maybe one of the reasons games like Battlefield3, Starcraft and LoL has such massive communities is because loads more of these 'leets' r now gaming with them... therefore showing the 'leets' r actually healthy to the overall games community. This is proved by the fact that these games have such massive communities. 'leets' havent discouraged the casuals in these games right...

  18. #698
    Moderator MoanaLisa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Pacific Northwest, USA
    Posts
    10,695
    Quote Originally Posted by Tarien View Post
    I'd love to see where his evidence is. How is it that WoW grows during Vanilla/TBC when the game was all about challenge, and then shrinks when everything becomes increasingly less challenging. How does your messiah - I mean messenger - explain this?
    People should really open their minds to the possibility that 'difficulty', per se, is not now and never was the driving force between population swings in the game. 2005-2007 is not 2012-2013. The competitive scene is different. Gaming culture has moved on. What was once new is no longer so.

    And while I'm at it I'll say this more generally and as simply as I can: There's nothing wrong with anyone engaging in an entertainment to relax and to have fun. In the larger world of video gaming and the more specific world that surrounds World of Warcraft fun is more important than difficulty every single time. For those that enjoy a challenge and find that sort of thing to be fun there are things to do. For those that enjoy something much more relaxed and less difficult there are things for them to do. If a very large percentage of the player population wants to play solo, they have a great many things they can be busy with. For anyone who wants to play in a social structure that encourages friends and teamwork, that's there for them as well.

    And for god's sake: Stop demonizing those who find a different purpose in the game than you. I'm actually a fairly decent representative of this. There are nights I log on looking to stretch a bit and be challenged. So I do the things that feed that. There are other nights when I log on and want simply to do little more than kill a multitude of things without a lot of problem. And so I do that. There are nights when I want to do something with friends and there are nights when I simply want to be left alone. None of these things is bad.

    Fun trumps all. Every time. Do what you find to be fun. Avoid the stuff that you don't find fun. Stop attempting to turn an entertainment into a Darwinian battle of survival of the fittest.

    EDIT: Not that it matters quite so much at nearly 30+ pages in but to be proper and have this post actually brush up against the topic, there is a great deal of baggage associated currently with raiding guilds--all of which has been talked about multiple times in this thread--all of which is pretty much the definition of something that is simply not fun. Applications, rejections, being sat, recruiting around behind your back, guild hopping, screaming and abuse in vent, whatever...none of it is anything that is even remotely defined as fun. So it's not a wonder that many people are now choosing other ways. It only needs to happen once or twice before it becomes too much hassle. Which, generally, is my point.
    Last edited by MoanaLisa; 2013-06-29 at 06:20 PM.
    If you have anything to contribute to a thread topic, please do so. Discussing moderation or calling out specific people is against the rules and makes a post liable for an infraction. Please report problem posts. If anyone is unclear about the rules please read our FAQ. Thanks.

    It's a magical world, Hobbes, ol' buddy...let's go exploring!

  19. #699
    Quote Originally Posted by roflmfao View Post
    My 2 cents...People used to raid for 3 reasons.
    1. To see end game content.
    2. It was fun.
    3. Gear upgrades.

    LFR gives everyone the chance to see end game content and get ok gear upgrades. It is on easy mode so when you recruit this raider their expectations are kill boss get loot. When you start wiping and learning a new boss in a real raid they are easily frustrated and either magically lose their internet connection or can't seem to make the next raid which is making it harder for raiding guilds to retain quality raiders or teach new raiders due to lack on commitment to get through the content.
    The only way I see to fix this problem is to make LFR gear blue quality (since everyone wants epics) and not release LFR content until it is 1 tier behind. Then they could always release final endgame content a few months before an x-pac.
    As far as N raiding goes you step from easy mode to make a mistake and it has a high probability of causing a wipe. That in a sense takes some of the fun out of it because nobody wants to be the booger on the finger of the raid group that just caused the wipe. That is how Heroic modes should be.
    The first 3 xpacs were alot more forgiving as far as raid bosses go (other than Ulduar) and you didn't have LFR and people were excited to raid and would sit on standby for a group, now you get people with the attitude of I can just run LFR this week. WoW used to be about raiding and gear, now it is just a time filler that herds the masses through the content because everyone has the right to see all the content, and the flex raiding idea is going to fail because there are many guilds that are struggling to get their 10 people together to raid.
    I have one of those guilds, and after having a 10-25 man raiding guild that started in Kara we are about to shut the guild down because people cant sommit to 3 nights of raiding for these reasons.
    I tell you what, you go do the 1 tier late content thing for an entire expansion and let us know how that turns out for you.

    That means for now you can only do MSV, HoF, and ToES LFR. Of course you are welcome to do 5 mans, scenarios and dailies. No heroic scenario because that hands out welfare purples.

    Then when siege drops you can go do ToT LFR and heroic scenarios.

    Once the expansion ends you won't be able to queue up for siege LFR because you will be getting welfare questing greens that are better than siege LFR.

    After 6 months of 5 mans and dailies you can do the first LFR for next expansion.

    You do that and come back here and explain how enjoyable the experience was and then your ideal might not sound so asinine.

    That means no raiding, because you will be simulating your ingenious plan that you would like to inflict on the casual gamer. My hunch is you don't have the integrity to even attempt it because it would suck. Just so long as it sucks for the other guy you don't care.

  20. #700
    Moderator MoanaLisa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Pacific Northwest, USA
    Posts
    10,695
    Quote Originally Posted by Blachshma View Post
    Problem is, comparing LFR to normal, if normal is a full marathon then LFR is way less than a half marathon, and the margin between the rewards is way too small for people to care about doing the full marathon.
    An instructive analogy. Some people do 10K runs, some people do marathons. You don't see a lot of back-biting and sneering at each other over it. The important thing is to do what suits you and never mind the rest.
    If you have anything to contribute to a thread topic, please do so. Discussing moderation or calling out specific people is against the rules and makes a post liable for an infraction. Please report problem posts. If anyone is unclear about the rules please read our FAQ. Thanks.

    It's a magical world, Hobbes, ol' buddy...let's go exploring!

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •