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  1. #701
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    An instructive analogy. Some people do 10K runs, some people do marathons. You don't see a lot of back-biting and sneering at each other over it. The important thing is to do what suits you and never mind the rest.
    If you do any running marathons or 10ks there is always those guys who will run full throttle and scream at anyone in their way "BEHIND YOU!" And then slam through you if you don't react fast enough. They do this even in untimed events. These people are jerks. People should be able to run at a slower pace if they want to because not everyone is an Olympic gold runner.

    You don't ever see 10K runners calling for the end of the Olympics.

  2. #702
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    An instructive analogy. Some people do 10K runs, some people do marathons. You don't see a lot of back-biting and sneering at each other over it. The important thing is to do what suits you and never mind the rest.
    U would if the rewards were approximately the same.

    The best analogy for that would be in tennis where they have only recently given the Mens and Womens prizemoney the same at the grandslams. The men used to get more money, but is it right they should both get the same when men play for 5 sets and women play for 3?

    its the effort vs reward argument all over again...

  3. #703
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endemonadia View Post
    U would if the rewards were approximately the same.

    The best analogy for that would be in tennis where they have only recently given the Mens and Womens prizemoney the same at the grandslams. The men used to get more money, but is it right they should both get the same when men play for 5 sets and women play for 3?

    its the effort vs reward argument all over again...
    But you don't see anyone making an argument that anyone would even for one second take seriously that women should be eliminated altogether from Grand Slam competition because of this do you?
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  4. #704
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    But you don't see anyone making an argument that anyone would even for one second take seriously that women should be eliminated altogether from Grand Slam competition because of this do you?
    How would women be eliminated?

    I dont have a view on it.. im just throwing in a very current argument about "effort vs reward"

  5. #705
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endemonadia View Post
    How would women be eliminated?
    The removal of LFR is analogous.

    I don't think that you've said that though.
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  6. #706
    I just want someone who is a progression Raider to agree to 10 raid bosses every 12-15 months instead of 12-14 raid bosses every 6 months in exchange for the removal of LFR because Blizzard will have to pull resources to keep 90% of the base occupied.

    Currently LFR occupies this role and requires no resources to produce, they don't even test it in beta.

  7. #707
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    I just want someone who is a progression Raider to agree to 10 raid bosses every 12-15 months instead of 12-14 raid bosses every 6 months in exchange for the removal of LFR because Blizzard will have to pull resources to keep 90% of the base occupied.

    Currently LFR occupies this role and requires no resources to produce, they don't even test it in beta.
    Can someone remind me what all these 'non-raiders' did back in Wrath b4 LFR was introduced?

  8. #708
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endemonadia View Post
    Can someone remind me what all these 'non-raiders' did back in Wrath b4 LFR was introduced?
    LFD, otherwise pugging previous tiers of raids.

    However, 2008-10 isn't 2012-13. Playerbase has changed drastically.
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  9. #709
    Quote Originally Posted by Endemonadia View Post
    U would if the rewards were approximately the same.

    The best analogy for that would be in tennis where they have only recently given the Mens and Womens prizemoney the same at the grandslams. The men used to get more money, but is it right they should both get the same when men play for 5 sets and women play for 3?

    its the effort vs reward argument all over again...
    Are you seriously trying to say the rewards for LFR are anywhere near "approximately the same" for normal / heroic raiding ? That's utterly ridiculous.
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  10. #710
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    Quote Originally Posted by Count Zero View Post
    Are you seriously trying to say the rewards for LFR are anywhere near "approximately the same" for normal / heroic raiding ? That's utterly ridiculous.
    The loot from LFR, looks the same, has the same setbonuses, the same stats... except a little lower. thats the only difference.

    Most people think the LFR loot is too cloase to normal raids gear, the gaps too small. There is next to no motivation for the LFR guys to stepup to Normals. Everyone knows its effectively free loot, the effort involved to complete LFR is next to zero compared to the effort required to complete a Normal run of the same bosses.

    Is the difference in gear stats truly reflective of the difference in skill required to complete both runs?

    Thats where the effort v reward argument is perfectly justified.

  11. #711
    Quote Originally Posted by Endemonadia View Post
    The loot from LFR, looks the same, has the same setbonuses, the same stats... except a little lower. thats the only difference.

    Most people think the LFR loot is too cloase to normal raids gear, the gaps too small. There is next to no motivation for the LFR guys to stepup to Normals. Everyone knows its effectively free loot, the effort involved to complete LFR is next to zero compared to the effort required to complete a Normal run of the same bosses.

    Is the difference in gear stats truly reflective of the difference in skill required to complete both runs?

    Thats where the effort v reward argument is perfectly justified.
    Not at all justified, not from invoking a mythical majority of "most people think" when you have absolutely no way of knowing what "most people" think. Even if every single post in this thread agreed with you (they do not) that is still a fraction of a fraction of the playerbase.

    Difference between LFR and Normal is bigger than the difference between Normal and Heroic, and even that smaller difference is a huge one in terms of potential and prestige. There is no "world first normal" or "world first lfr" race. Someone in full normal gear is going to outperform someone in full lfr gear, and someone in full heroic gear is going to outperform someone in full normal gear.

    "A little lower", that is flat out ridiculous. The difference in ilvl between lfr and heroic thunderforged in a single tier is nearly the ilvl difference that an entire expansion of upgrades was, in previous expansions.

    ToT LFR gear: 502. Heroic Thunderforged: 541. 39 ilvl diff.
    Karazhan gear: starts at 115. Sunwell gear: Up to 164. 49 ilvl diff.

    Nearly an entire prevoius expansion's worth difference in a single tier = "a little lower" ? No.

    Yes, the difference in stats is truly reflective of the difference in what is necessary to complete the two. You put up with the logistical requirements (time, commitment, skill, reliance on others) and you get nearly the entire ilvl difference in BC raid drops from beginning of xpac to end, in one MoP tier.

    And NO ONE in heroic gear is going to look at someone in normal gear and think, "Wow". Nor anyone in normal will look at someone in full normal look at someone in full LFR and think, "Wow". But me, in my full normal, I see someone in full heroic and "Wow" only begins to describe how I feel. But I don't have the inclination to devote the necessary investment (time schedule commitment, and time investment to increase my level of performance) to go from being a mostly normals / some heroics raider to a full heroics raider.
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  12. #712
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endemonadia View Post
    Thats where the effort v reward argument is perfectly justified.
    Problem is that if you reduce the reward, the widens the gap between Normal and LFR, further disincentivising raiding guilds from taking on players that have LFR gear.

    And if you increase the effort required, then LFR fails to fulfil its design: show off the content to the masses.
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  13. #713
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endemonadia View Post
    The loot from LFR, looks the same, has the same setbonuses, the same stats... except a little lower. thats the only difference.
    Respectfully, 30 ilevels (or however much it is at 490+ and higher) is quite a bit in terms of performance. The higher you go, the more the difference in actual effect on performance. 30 ilevels wasn't much of a big deal in Cataclysm; it was something but it wasn't necessarily disqualifying. It's enormous now in terms of throughput. So yes, you could make that argument. Not that, I mind you, it would change anyone's opinion. LFR gear mostly won't even begin to qualify you for normal raiding at its current difficulty, much less heroics. There's plenty of evidence to show that a lot of guilds aren't interested in LFR-geared raiders for exactly that reason: their gear.

    As for fashion statements: I for one wouldn't care if they used the previous tier models for LFR gear as long as they kept the stat budgets the same. Just throwing that out there. That wouldn't change anyone's opinion either and you'd be dumb to think it would. They would just find something else to complain about.

    I'm long ago convinced by this point that nearly all of this forum noise is still being driven by those who find the very presence of LFR offensive and won't shut up about it until it's gone. Which in itself is pretty unlikely so this will likely continue on forever.

    EDIT: I'll also add that anyone that thinks that the philosophical basis of effort vs. reward is an important thing to the vast majority of people who play WoW casually is flat out wrong. Arguments like this are always reminiscent of older people always bitching about how much harder it was in their day. People actually doing don't much care at this point if they even know.
    Last edited by MoanaLisa; 2013-06-29 at 11:25 PM.
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  14. #714
    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    LFD, otherwise pugging previous tiers of raids.

    However, 2008-10 isn't 2012-13. Playerbase has changed drastically.
    In part due to changes Blizzard made in how players perceive content and gear. This has had the downfall of content being consumed too fast for the majority which wasnt an issue before and now Blizzard is pumping out more content faster and still cannot keep pace.

  15. #715
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    Quote Originally Posted by nekobaka View Post
    This has had the downfall of content being consumed too fast for the majority which wasnt an issue before...
    I don't know that I agree with that at all. Blizzard has been very clear that players consume content faster than it's created. That goes for everything really that involves creativity at a high level: books, music, films, really anything. Twelve months to write a book that people read in under a week? Sound familiar?
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  16. #716
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    Respectfully, 30 ilevels (or however much it is at 490+ and higher) is quite a bit in terms of performance. The higher you go, the more the difference in actual effect on performance. 30 ilevels wasn't much of a big deal in Cataclysm; it was something but it wasn't necessarily disqualifying. It's enormous now in terms of throughput. So yes, you could make that argument. Not that, I mind you, it would change anyone's opinion. LFR gear mostly won't even begin to qualify you for normal raiding at its current difficulty, much less heroics. There's plenty of evidence to show that a lot of guilds aren't interested in LFR-geared raiders for exactly that reason: their gear.

    Funny thing - many people wouldnt take someone with 502 itlv even to HC scenario - not even talking about ToT normal so what are we even talk about how lfr is close to normal gear ><

    Quote Originally Posted by nekobaka View Post
    In part due to changes Blizzard made in how players perceive content and gear. This has had the downfall of content being consumed too fast for the majority which wasnt an issue before and now Blizzard is pumping out more content faster and still cannot keep pace.
    blizzard made or blizzard responsed to their own statistics to slow down number of people who have been leaving game since begining of cata cause ICC closed the story of lich king which driven many people into wow - how many of wow players actually heared about azeroth lore exept for playing W1,W2,W3
    Last edited by kamuimac; 2013-06-29 at 11:32 PM.

  17. #717
    I am Murloc! Firebert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    Twelve months to write a book that people read in under a week? Sound familiar?
    18 November 2010 until 7 July 2011 between Deathly Hallows 1 and 2, and the second film lasts only lasts 130m.

    That's half a book into a film.
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  18. #718
    Quote Originally Posted by Endemonadia View Post
    Can someone remind me what all these 'non-raiders' did back in Wrath b4 LFR was introduced?
    I didn't say they did nothing, I am saying they will need more content added regularly. This will mean pulling resources from raid content. It's simple math. Stop diverting around the question.

  19. #719
    Could anyone show me numbers which state that organized raiding is in decline compared to the same time scale in Cataclysm?

    I think it's just a myth. Most people who play LFR never were and never will be interested in organized raiding.

    Can someone remind me what all these 'non-raiders' did back in Wrath b4 LFR was introduced?
    Questing, 5 mans, old raids..

  20. #720
    Quote Originally Posted by rym View Post
    Could anyone show me numbers which state that organized raiding is in decline compared to the same time scale in Cataclysm?
    At this point in T12, nearly 42,000 guilds had downed the second boss on normal mode.

    Currently, 24,000 guilds have downed the second boss of ToT normal.

    These figures are from wowprogress.com. The T12 figure is slightly inflated due to including TW/KR guilds. However, that is nowhere near sufficient to account for the decline.
    Last edited by Osmeric; 2013-06-30 at 12:34 AM.
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