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  1. #721
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    At this point in T12, nearly 42,000 guilds had downed the second boss on normal mode.

    Currently, 24,000 guilds have downed the second boss of ToT normal.
    We got 4 months since 5.2 was released.

    Take a look onto http://www.wowprogress.com/rating.tier12

    Take also a look onto http://www.wowprogress.com for nowadays numbers.

    If you take a look onto 4 months since release of firelands, it was around 30.000 guilds which killed the first boss.
    If you take a look onto ToT now, its 29149 guilds which killed the first boss in ToT.

    Firelands got nerfed this point of the timescale, as there was no LFR. ToT will likely not get nerfed for a lot until 5.3 is over.

    Infact, we see the same numbers in Cata as like now. If you got other sources, post them.

  2. #722
    Dreadlord Arian21's Avatar
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    Why are you talking about just 1 boss . Check how many have killed the whole normal then and now !

  3. #723
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    At this point in T12, nearly 42,000 guilds had downed the second boss on normal mode.

    Currently, 24,000 guilds have downed the second boss of ToT normal.

    These figures are from wowprogress.com. The T12 figure is slightly inflated due to including TW/KR guilds. However, that is nowhere near sufficient to account for the decline.
    Yes people are leaving the game and moving on to other things. You need to compare the % change between t11/12 and t13/14. Also, this tier is not even over yet and the numbers you are pulling also include all throughout cata going into dragon soul, while mop still has many more months to go and many more people will kill horridon.

  4. #724
    Quote Originally Posted by rym View Post
    If you take a look onto 4 months since release of firelands, it was around 30.000 guilds which killed the first boss.
    This is incorrect. FL opened Jun 28, 2011. We are 115 days into T15. 115 days after Jun 28 is Oct 21. By Oct 21, wowprogress shows in excess of 43,000 guilds having downed Beth'tilac.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  5. #725
    Quote Originally Posted by Arian21 View Post
    Why are you talking about just 1 boss . Check how many have killed the whole normal then and now !
    Which also just could mean that normal ToT is more challenging than normal firelands.

    There also is another difference compared to Cataclysm:

    We got linear progression in MoP.

    This is incorrect. FL opened Jun 28, 2011. We are 115 days into T15. 115 days after Jun 28 is Oct 21. By Oct 21, wowprogress shows in excess of 43,000 guilds having downed Beth'tilac.
    But you remember that FLs got nerfed a lot once it didnt include the casual raid guilds those days?

    Normal ToT has not been nerfed until now to that degree.
    Last edited by rym; 2013-06-30 at 12:45 AM.

  6. #726
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    This is incorrect. FL opened Jun 28, 2011. We are 115 days into T15. 115 days after Jun 28 is Oct 21. By Oct 21, wowprogress shows in excess of 43,000 guilds having downed Beth'tilac.
    This is still flawed. Not everyone went for Beth'tilac after Shannox.

  7. #727
    Quote Originally Posted by Arian21 View Post
    Why are you talking about just 1 boss . Check how many have killed the whole normal then and now !
    At this point in T12, about 30,000 guilds had killed Ragnaros (normal mode).

    Currently, 11.4K guilds have downed Lei Shen normal mode.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-30 at 12:47 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Libertarian View Post
    This is still flawed. Not everyone went for Beth'tilac after Shannox.
    Sorry, B't was the first boss in the list. The Shannox number should be slightly higher.

    (Checking...) About 46K guilds had downed Shannox at this point in T12.
    Last edited by Osmeric; 2013-06-30 at 12:49 AM.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  8. #728
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    At this point in T12, about 30,000 guilds had killed Ragnaros (normal mode).

    Currently, 11.4K guilds have downed Lei Shen normal mode.
    If you would continue the line without the massive nerf to Firelands, we would have the same numbers nowadays.

    You compare apples to oranges, as we

    a) got a massive nerf to firelands

    and

    b) got linear progression in MoP



    ---------- Post added 2013-06-30 at 01:48 AM ----------

    I just think that organized raiding is in no crisis infact. Even Ghostcrawler wrote, that everything seems fine with the raid participation.
    Last edited by rym; 2013-06-30 at 12:50 AM.

  9. #729
    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    Problem is that if you reduce the reward, the widens the gap between Normal and LFR, further disincentivising raiding guilds from taking on players that have LFR gear.
    This is actually a very good point... the whole thing becomes a double edged sword.. ur damned if u do and ur damned if u dont.

    Basically, u can make the gear in LFR even closer to Normals in the hope that the gear is good enough to raid Normals, ie helping the LFR players to stepup. But the problem with that is players will just think it aint worth the effort to get better gear cos their gear is pretty much the same.

    Or u can make the gap even bigger between LFR to Normals in the hope that LFR players want to stepup to get much better gear. But obviously then their LFR gear will suck too much fighting Normal bosses.

    To me, that totally shows how LFR in any format cannot help traditional raiding in any way... its a nail in the Wow raiding coffin.

    Its a shame cos LFR should have a place in Wow... its just pretty impossible to find its place where it helps ALL of the game, it appears to only help 1 section and hinder the other whatever u do with it.
    Last edited by Endemonadia; 2013-06-30 at 12:51 AM.

  10. #730
    Quote Originally Posted by rym View Post
    If you would continue the line without the massive nerf to Firelands, we would have the same numbers nowadays.
    Doubtful, since ToT normal started very weakly.

    I just think that organized raiding is in no crisis infact. Even Ghostcrawler wrote, that everything seems fine with the raid participation.
    They gave lots of similar comments in Cataclysm too, before they threw in the towel.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  11. #731
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    At this point in T12, nearly 42,000 guilds had downed the second boss on normal mode.

    Currently, 24,000 guilds have downed the second boss of ToT normal.

    These figures are from wowprogress.com. The T12 figure is slightly inflated due to including TW/KR guilds. However, that is nowhere near sufficient to account for the decline.
    Second boss is horridon which has been a guild blocker for a lot of guilds to the point that blizzard has stated that te difficulty jump from first to second boss has never been so high. That may be altering the numbers a bit. Face slamming on a boss for weeks is no fun.

  12. #732
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Doubtful, since ToT normal started very weakly.
    Linear progression wants to say hi. There were no 5 mans to catch up.

    They gave lots of similar comments in Cataclysm too, before they threw in the towel.
    They wont throw in the towel, as people see the content using LFR nowadays. I dont think normal ToT will be nerfed a lot before the content is outdated.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-30 at 01:55 AM ----------

    LFR is the standard scapegoat of unsuccessfull raiders nowadays, as it seems. Instead of trying to improve, those people feel "forced" to run LFR to see the content.

    I think flex raiding will fix this.. as long people accept the fact, they would have to play that difficulty if there arent a real raiding guild.

  13. #733
    Quote Originally Posted by rym View Post
    They wont throw in the towel,
    The hardcores were saying the same thing in the first half of Cataclysm, too. Then the sub drops started.

    The sub drops are even worse this time. Subs are back to pre-BC levels, and declining.

    You still sure they're going to keep up with the "everything is fine!!1!" spiel?
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  14. #734
    Quote Originally Posted by rym View Post
    Linear progression wants to say hi. There were no 5 mans to catch up.



    They wont throw in the towel, as people see the content using LFR nowadays. I dont think normal ToT will be nerfed a lot before the content is outdated.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-30 at 01:55 AM ----------

    LFR is the standard scapegoat of unsuccessfull raiders nowadays, as it seems. Instead of trying to improve, those people feel "forced" to run LFR to see the content.

    I think flex raiding will fix this.. as long people accept the fact, they would have to play that difficulty if there arent a real raiding guild.
    Exactly the reason Flex is being introduced so there will be nerfing of LOL Normal modes. People can feel like raiders in Flex and LFR with 528 and 536 gear while the average player does normal with 553 gear and heroic 566 gear. Normals should never be nerfed.

  15. #735
    Quote Originally Posted by Otiswhitaker View Post
    Frankly, I think it's more new blood than anything else. I think WoW just isn't appealing to new people anymore, and what new people it DOES appeal to, are going to be the types that probably aren't going to want to raid for the most part. Basically.. raid content is being made for raiders that are already raiders, and if you want to raid, you're probably already doing that.

    I think if you removed LFR, or had it never added rather, raiding participation would probably not change much. Maybe a little higher! Who knows.

    The real problem is that WoW isn't really appealing to new people anymore, and hasn't really been since about 2010 or so. But I don't think it's just WoW, I think it's the entire MMORPG genre. I think it's a genre stuck in a time that is really out of place now a days, and it still carries so much baggage with it that most modern gamers don't want to deal with it.
    No, the rea problem was cited in the OP:

    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchor View Post
    People who are new to WoW usually won't gear up with anything than LFR and Valor gear and will have a very hard time getting accepted into any kind of raidguild. If guilds don't learn to lower their standards and to have a friendlier policy to letting new blood in then in the longterm they'll run out of anyone to recruit at all.
    Basically, raiding guilds are killing themselves. Good fucking riddance. Most (not all, but most) raid guilds act too big for their britches bunch of wanna be scum. If you don't take time to nurture and train your players go back to playing a solo game, that'd be more your speed (that's also why I don't lead anything; I don't have that kind of patience but for a handful of special individuals).

  16. #736
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    The hardcores were saying the same thing in the first half of Cataclysm, too. Then the sub drops started.
    heroic 5 mans in early cata just failed, because they were brick walls for everyone.

    The sub drops are even worse this time. Subs are back to pre-BC levels, and declining.
    But it's not raiders quitting in MoP. It's asian casual gamers that have to pay for time played. And who did not like the fact they would have to play hours to complete daily quests in early MoP.

    You still sure they're going to keep up with the "everything is fine!!1!" spiel?
    They already reacted to the loss of subscribers by replacing dailies with weekly efforts as events.

  17. #737
    about the applications.

    while i myself have been a steady member of a good raiding team since Wrath, a friend of mine hasnt.
    and he has been in several lower ranked raiding guilds. where he could play in a way that was most comfortable for him.
    but something he showed me before he found the guild he is in currently, is that many low/mid progression guilds have a far more insane application than the guild has that im in (which i would count as high progression). having far more stricter demands on what one should already have up too the far outranging what they were themself capable off. higher ilvl then decently possible for people with same progression, futher progressed then the guild is themself, and more like these.

    i think that certain guilds need to become more aware of what they can demand of their new recruits, cause they're giving application overall a bad name.
    while there are more then enough that are decently set up in the way what their progression should atleast need and a willingness too accept people below that standard for people who show good potential.

  18. #738
    Quote Originally Posted by PetersenIII View Post
    No, the rea problem was cited in the OP:



    Basically, raiding guilds are killing themselves. Good fucking riddance. Most (not all, but most) raid guilds act too big for their britches bunch of wanna be scum. If you don't take time to nurture and train your players go back to playing a solo game, that'd be more your speed (that's also why I don't lead anything; I don't have that kind of patience but for a handful of special individuals).
    Don't forgot your pacifer on the way out. Why does anyone need to train you? Are you a circus monkey or a child that needs to be taught how to take a shit? You leveled to 90, there are videos,journals,massive amounts of information on the internet, but i guess it stings getting told that you are a bad and you know its true.

    It isn't the guilds but the horrendous player base that is almost impossible to recruit from. Players that think they are good raiders don't even know their own class most of the time and get mad when they are called on it. There are so many in-game programs that assist you also. Why would a guild take anyone that doesnt even know the basics of their own class at 90? What would the guild benefit from bringing bad/lazy players into the raid? State assistance for helping the disabled?

  19. #739
    Quote Originally Posted by rym View Post
    If you take a look onto 4 months since release of firelands, it was around 30.000 guilds which killed the first boss.
    If you take a look onto ToT now, its 29149 guilds which killed the first boss in ToT.
    Im pretty sure ur reading it wrong...

    I see 64,279 guilds killed Beth'tilac in FL and 29,149 guilds killed Jin'rokh in ToT.

  20. #740
    Quote Originally Posted by Endemonadia View Post
    Im pretty sure ur reading it wrong...

    I see 64,279 guilds killed Beth'tilac in FL and 29,149 guilds killed Jin'rokh in ToT.
    You forgot the time scale.

    Infact you are comparing numbers at the end of Cataclysm with numbers in the middle of MoP.

    If we also take the linear progression in account, and the fact firelands got nerfed to what we would call flex raiding difficulty nowadays, we would have the same numbers.
    Last edited by rym; 2013-06-30 at 01:11 AM.

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