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  1. #741
    Quote Originally Posted by rym View Post
    You forgot the time scale.
    He got it wrong, but you did too.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  2. #742
    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchor View Post
    "Lack of new QUALITY blood."
    So I lead a semi successful 25 man raiding guild on a dead realm (officially dead). I edited your quote to explain why we watched all the other guilds who tried this around us die or leave for a higher pop PVE realm. We are now 11/12 (after a super rocky first couple of months on horridon) and we are now leading raids with waitlists again (2-3 people tops). We still do apps on our website and then do a interview of sorts (more just an informal chat) on mumble and then normally invite people. If were on farm content we try and bring in the new people (so were not just DE'ing boatloads of gear) And we find our diamonds in the rough as it were. The problem we have is 60-80% of the applicants we bring in are just awful, they're used to LFR and standing in things and they don't understand mechanics like the light beams on Durumu.
    Worse than that even would be how they want to be treated. If you call someone a moron for standing in a lightning fissure on Jin'rokh they get butthurt that you called them a moron for being a moron.
    I often feel like a kindergarten teacher trying to tell them all that they're amazing little butterflies who always improve. But my boot is ready to go up their asses on the nights we wipe on Durumu (farm content) for an hour because some dumbshit got the red beam and left before the fog was killed.

    In short, LFR killed my apps, Cata Killed my apps, and even Ruby Sanctum killed my apps. Fortunately I still have quality raiders from TBC who all have come back for full raiding in MoP and can half carry a raid.

    Elapsed <Downfall> on Gorgonnash

  3. #743
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    Quote Originally Posted by rym View Post
    You forgot the time scale.
    The timescale graph on my screen doesnt even show the first 4 bosses of FL, it starts at Altrazor.

  4. #744
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    He got it wrong, but you did too.
    No, i didnt. As i also added nonlinear progression and the nerf to firelands to the calculation.

    As i already said, it's a comparison between apples and oranges.

  5. #745
    Quote Originally Posted by rym View Post
    No, i didnt.
    You said that by this point in T12, 30K guilds had downed the first boss. This is completely wrong. At this point, 30K guilds had downed Ragnaros.

    As i also added nonlinear progression and the nerf to firelands to the calculation.
    Wait... instead of using the actual numbers, you were using fantasy numbers you just made up? That's a convenient way to make a case for something in the real world.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  6. #746
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Wait... instead of using the actual numbers, you were using fantasy numbers you just made up? That's a convenient way to make a case for something in the real world.
    I just made the same as you did.

    You compared numbers with numbers which hadnt the same prerequisites.

    At the same timescale we got:

    Mists of Pandaria:
    - has LFR, no massive nerfs to raiding content
    - has Linear Progression
    - has 8.3 million players

    And

    Cataclysm
    - has no LFR, massive nerfs to raiding content to adress all kinds of players
    - has nonelinear progression (allowing instant catchup)
    - has 10 million players

    You forgot this differences completely, and as i already wrote, i think it is infact you who is comparing apples to oranges.

    Ghostcrawler wrote, that most of the raiding people arent equipped enough to play ToT yet. Thats a consequence of linear progression. Still there are as much organized raiders as blizzard did expect.
    Last edited by rym; 2013-06-30 at 01:24 AM.

  7. #747
    Quote Originally Posted by rym View Post
    I just made the same as you did.
    No, I pulled the numbers directly from the wowprogress.com website.

    You compared numbers with numbers which hadnt the same prerequisites.
    We are trying to answer the question "is raiding declining", as in are fewer people doing it?

    The numbers I gave tell you that. You can scale them for game population if you like. The decline (particularly Rag vs. LS) is so great that the decline in game population cannot account for it.

    Ghosrtcrawler wrote, that most of the raiding people arent equipped enough to play ToT yet. Thats a consequence of linear progression. Still there are as much organized raiders as blizzard did expect.
    I'm sorry, but Mr. Street is full of crap there. Anyone who had been grinding VP and ToT LFR will be above ilvl 510 now. If they have not been doing that, it's because they've given up progressing. They are not suddenly going to jump back in as normal mode raiders. They have already raised the white flag.

    I think Street is looking at people who are demoralized and puttering, and imagining that gear is all that's holding them back. At this point, their low ilvl is a symptom, not a cause.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  8. #748
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    No, I pulled the numbers directly from the wowprogress.com website.
    You are comparing numbers from a nonelinear, nerfed normal raid tier with a linear not nerfed normal raid tier.

    And you dont even see your fallacy.

    We are trying to answer the question "is raiding declining", as in are fewer people doing it?
    And how do you know fewer people do it? By talking about a guild statistic which lists no pugging players, no players which dont play the actual content as their endgame?

    Where is the fallacy here?

    The numbers I gave tell you that. You can scale them for game population if you like. The decline (particularly Rag vs. LS) is so great that the decline in game population cannot account for it.
    The numbers dont tell anything, as you dont compare the same prerequisites. I wonder you dont understand that.

    I'm sorry, but Mr. Street is full of crap there. Anyone who had been grinding VP and ToT LFR will be above ilvl 510 now. If they have not been doing that, it's because they've given up progressing. They are not suddenly going to jump back in as normal mode raiders. They have already raised the white flag.
    Most of the people who play LFR are not interested in organized raiding. Quote ghostcrawler.

    I think Street is looking at people who are demoralized and puttering, and imagining that gear is all that's holding them back. At this point, their low ilvl is a symptom, not a cause.
    It's the effect of the linear progression system we got in MoP.

  9. #749
    Quote Originally Posted by rym View Post
    You are comparing numbers from a nonelinear, nerfed normal raid tier with a linear not nerfed normal raid tier.

    And you dont even see your fallacy.
    It's not a fallacy. We're asking if raid participation is declining, not if raid participation is declining normalized for raid difficulty. If harder raid content has led to the collapse of raiding, that doesn't mean we should say it actually hasn't collapsed because we didn't normalize for difficulty. It just explains the collapse.

    And how do you know fewer people do it? By talking about a guild statistic which lists no pugging players, no players which dont play the actual content as their endgame?

    Where is the fallacy here?
    I'm using the data we have available. If you have a data source that gives player rather than guild numbers, I'm all ears. I suspect you're just being nihilistic here and demanding data that cannot be obtained, though.

    Most of the people who play LFR are not interested in organized raiding. Quote ghostcrawler.
    But someone who really wanted to do normal mode COULD have geared up in LFR, even if most LFR players weren't interested in normal mode. If such a person has not done so by this time, they really aren't interested in normal mode. So this population Street is imagining that is still slooooowly gearing up for ToT normal, then will be ready to grind away at the normal modes, seems to be based more on his desperate hope than anything else. If they were normal mode material their mains would have been ready before now.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  10. #750
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    I'm using the data we have available. If you have a data source that gives player rather than guild numbers, I'm all ears. I suspect you're just being nihilistic here and demanding data that cannot be obtained, though.
    There would be a source, which would be the armory.

    But the number of raiding guilds mastering the current content from wowprogress.com is not really showing, how many players are playing organized raid difficulties.

    So this population Street is imagining that is still slooooowly gearing up for ToT normal, then will be ready to grind away at the normal modes, seems to be based more on his desperate hope than anything else. If they were normal mode material their mains would have been ready before now.
    I would believe Mr. Street knows the numbers better than you, sir. And he wrote, that raiding participation is where it was expected to be.

  11. #751
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    I tell you what, you go do the 1 tier late content thing for an entire expansion and let us know how that turns out for you.

    That means for now you can only do MSV, HoF, and ToES LFR. Of course you are welcome to do 5 mans, scenarios and dailies. No heroic scenario because that hands out welfare purples.

    Then when siege drops you can go do ToT LFR and heroic scenarios.

    Once the expansion ends you won't be able to queue up for siege LFR because you will be getting welfare questing greens that are better than siege LFR.

    After 6 months of 5 mans and dailies you can do the first LFR for next expansion.

    You do that and come back here and explain how enjoyable the experience was and then your ideal might not sound so asinine.

    That means no raiding, because you will be simulating your ingenious plan that you would like to inflict on the casual gamer. My hunch is you don't have the integrity to even attempt it because it would suck. Just so long as it sucks for the other guy you don't care.
    You are obviously an LFR queen to get so upset at the thought of not being able to run current content in LFR. For 4 expansions people raided without LFR and people joined guilds and did what it took to be able to get to end game content. Now they have no need to because a couple of weeks after it is released out comes LFR and people see the end and it doesn't matter.

    Enjoy your LFR's!

  12. #752
    Wait this needs a thread?
    People joined raid guilds because it used to be the only reliable way to raid.
    There is now LFR, so you no longer need to be in a raid guild.
    Simple, isn't it?

  13. #753
    Quote Originally Posted by roflmfao View Post
    You are obviously an LFR queen to get so upset at the thought of not being able to run current content in LFR. For 4 expansions people raided without LFR and people joined guilds and did what it took to be able to get to end game content. Now they have no need to because a couple of weeks after it is released out comes LFR and people see the end and it doesn't matter.

    Enjoy your LFR's!
    You really need to stop making assumptions based on your over reaching ignorance. I am a normal mode raider who happens to enjoy the benefits of LFR. Going through life ignorant and disruptive is no way to live.

  14. #754
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    Quote Originally Posted by isadorr View Post
    Don't forgot your pacifer on the way out. Why does anyone need to train you? Are you a circus monkey or a child that needs to be taught how to take a shit? You leveled to 90, there are videos,journals,massive amounts of information on the internet, but i guess it stings getting told that you are a bad and you know its true.

    It isn't the guilds but the horrendous player base that is almost impossible to recruit from. Players that think they are good raiders don't even know their own class most of the time and get mad when they are called on it. There are so many in-game programs that assist you also. Why would a guild take anyone that doesnt even know the basics of their own class at 90? What would the guild benefit from bringing bad/lazy players into the raid? State assistance for helping the disabled?
    Ah but remember we're talking about a hypothetical new WoW player here. You can level to 90 and read all the guides and watch all the videos you like, but that's no substitute for actual experience; as a presumed hardcore raider (judging by the fact you have defeated Ra-den) you should know that. Would YOU accept someone new to the game if they had full LFR gear and said that they've watched all the videos for normal and heroic bosses, but because they've only done LFR they haven't done those bosses yet on normal or heroic? Somehow I doubt it; you would tell them to go join some scrub guild and get experience and then talk to you when they're at your level.

    The key points here is that LFR can't be "good enough" because LFR doesn't get you to the next level. Someone decked out in LFR gear who has cleared ToT in that mode still probably will not be accepted to even a well-progressed normal raid guild, to say nothing of a guild working on heroic modes. Flex won't solve that issue either, it'll just add another stepping stone:

    * Join scrub guild, do LFR, look for better guild
    * Join scrub guild, do Flex, look for better guild
    * Join scrub guild, down handful of normal bosses, look for better guild

    (The above might be the same guild depending on the actual skill the people have)

    * Join better guild, down more bosses, look for better guild
    * Join even better guild, clear normal, look for guild in early heroics
    * Join mediocre heroic guild, down 1-2heroic bosses, look for guild midway with heroics
    * Join good heroic guild, down about half heroic bosses, look for high-end guild
    * Join high-end heroic guild, down all heroic bosses except for final boss and optional boss (if there is one), look for hardcore/server first guild

    (Most people would stop around this point and be content)

    * Join hardcore guild, clear heroic modes

    That's a lot of hypothetical guild hopping (if you include all three "scrub guilds" as one guild, and discount the server-first or better level guilds, that's 6 different hypothetical guilds our hypothetical player would jump ship to in order to get better progress) since the vast majority of us can't jump right into a guild capable of heroic modes or heroic clears without already having done heroic modes and heroic clears in prior tiers and expansions.
    Last edited by Nobleshield; 2013-06-30 at 02:21 AM.
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  15. #755
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    But someone who really wanted to do normal mode COULD have geared up in LFR, even if most LFR players weren't interested in normal mode. If such a person has not done so by this time, they really aren't interested in normal mode. So this population Street is imagining that is still slooooowly gearing up for ToT normal, then will be ready to grind away at the normal modes, seems to be based more on his desperate hope than anything else. If they were normal mode material their mains would have been ready before now.
    Even if not well hey Blizzard and Ghostcrawler YOU CHANGED CATCH UP this expansion. Like no matter how you square it piss poor decision making on their part resulted in this catastrophe.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  16. #756
    Quote Originally Posted by roflmfao View Post
    You are obviously an LFR queen to get so upset at the thought of not being able to run current content in LFR. For 4 expansions people raided without LFR and people joined guilds and did what it took to be able to get to end game content. Now they have no need to because a couple of weeks after it is released out comes LFR and people see the end and it doesn't matter.

    Enjoy your LFR's!
    More of this fine elitist attitude on display. Yes, we will keep enjoying LFR. Enjoy your dwindling hardcore raiding population!

  17. #757
    Quote Originally Posted by roflmfao View Post
    You are obviously an LFR queen to get so upset at the thought of not being able to run current content in LFR. For 4 expansions people raided without LFR and people joined guilds and did what it took to be able to get to end game content. Now they have no need to because a couple of weeks after it is released out comes LFR and people see the end and it doesn't matter.

    Enjoy your LFR's!
    I think you got your facts wrong, people didn't join guilds to get to experience the end game, Raid Guilds selected 10% of the population and those privileged few got to experience the end game.

    That's the crux of the problem here, it's not what gear they get, it's not even thy they get to see the content, it's that the privileged few we're undermined by the creators of the content because the endgame was never intended to be guarded by a few players and kept from the rest.

    You have no intentions of gathering up the LFR players and inviting them into your guilds so they can experience the content. You just want to go back to the days when you could deny 90% of the player base so you could feel special inside which is pretty damned sad that a person has to define their self worth based on what content in a video game they consume.

  18. #758
    1. applications are ridicilous, wtf is up with real life job ,name, age, life motto,... you need bank access too?

    2. raiding in itself is stupid, its grinding the same content with success rates solely relying on your team, you cant fix teams mistakes, if raidmembers fail thats it, no reward for you regardless of your skill, the challenge is not the content, the challenge is aquiring enough good players.

    3. theres a steadily growing ammount of games, why play the same content for months if you can play something new every week?
    Last edited by bt4; 2013-06-30 at 03:11 AM.

  19. #759
    Quote Originally Posted by bt4 View Post
    1. applications are ridicilous, wtf is up with real life job ,name, age, life motto,... you need bank access too?

    2. raiding in itself is stupid, its grinding the same content with success rates solely relying on your team, you cant fix teams mistakes, if raidmembers fail thats it, no reward for you regardless of your skill

    3. theres a steadily growing ammount of games, why play the same content for months if you can play something new every week?
    If you don't like applications then don't do them.

    If you don't like face slamming on bosses over and over then don't do it.

    If you don't like repeating content to progress your character and progress your guilds raid characters then don't raid.

    There's more to the content then seeing it once. There's more to raiding than the gear. People play for millions of reasons and if you can't understand that your play style isn't everyone's play style then why even bother coming here to discuss the issues?

  20. #760
    The reason a lot of people in my guild are quitting is because raiding has become a complete grind. In Wotlk and Cata you could just log in at raid time and raid, and then not log in for the rest of the week as valor became useless after the first 3 weeks of a tier. This isn't the case in MoP, instead you have to grind coins and valor every week. The amount of time you have to put into raiding this expansion is ridiculous compared to the previous, especially if you also like to play alts. This was fine for the first 6 months, but now it has just become a boring repetitive chore that you have to do every single week.

    At least that is the reason 4 people have quit in the last 3 weeks in my guild.
    Last edited by makkk; 2013-06-30 at 04:13 AM.

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