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  1. #841
    Stop advertising ideas of yours as facts.

  2. #842
    Quote Originally Posted by Amerrol View Post
    You don't need 30 hours a week to see normal mode. You need a modicum of skill, and more importantly, the drive to see content. The majority of players don't have the skill or the drive, so they hide behind not having time to raid. Not saying you specifically don't have the skill, but you clearly don't have the drive.
    You may not need more than 8 hours a week to successfully raid, but you do need to skew your priorities. The typical 30+ year old should be able to say the following to be able to raid successfully:
    • Hi, Honey! I know you've been stuck with the baby all day long and that you've just been waiting for me to get home so that you can catch a quick nap, but I'm raiding tonight. Sorry!
    • Sorry, Kiddo! I'd love to give you a hand with your math homework, but I'm raiding tonight. Tell your teacher you'll have your assignment done a day late. Thanks!
    • I didn't realize the school play was tonight! Unfortunately I'm raiding, so maybe you can record that play for me.
    • Why do we have to visit your parents again? It seems like only three months ago that I had to endure the in-laws! I'm raiding tonight anyway. Go on without me. I'll see them next time.
    • I know I have work in six hours, but we're really close to killing this boss. I can get by on four hours of sleep, I guess.
    It's not just about quantity of time. It's about being crazy enough to skew your priorities in favor of a video game. Most 30+ year olds aren't that crazy.

  3. #843
    I raid for 4 hours on friday and I spend an hour a day doing things to better my performance on Fridays which includes an LFR a night.That's 10 hours a week.
    A lot of people complained that due to dailies that they *had* to do that Blizzard gave them too much to do to be raid ready. Not everyone can sustain a 10 hour a week schedule, I have to fight tooth and nail for that 10 hours and I have to play balls to the walls to get as far as I do.

    There are also people who are incapable of scheduling at all, they may have time but they never know when they can play and when they do play they don't want to hope for a pug group to form.

  4. #844
    - There is no real reason to do 25 man raids.
    - There is no sense of progression as you see the same cinematics as in LFR.
    - People value gear over players.
    - New player's generation want everything easily, find they are good when they abuse retarded mechanics and fail to recognize their fault when things go wrong.

  5. #845
    Quote Originally Posted by Knolan View Post
    - There is no real reason to do 25 man raids.
    Aside from the far higher loot drop rate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Knolan View Post
    - There is no sense of progression as you see the same cinematics as in LFR.
    Except you get to experience far more mechanics than are available in LFR. Have people actually ever raided for substandard cut scenes that were all posted on youtube anyway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Knolan View Post
    - People value gear over players.
    Sad but true.

    Quote Originally Posted by Knolan View Post
    - New player's generation want everything easily, find they are good when they abuse retarded mechanics and fail to recognize their fault when things go wrong.
    This is an age-old misperception. Convenience is not the same as ease. I don't think new players want anything more easily than old players did. Old players just think everything is much easier nowadays because they've had eight years to hone their skills.

  6. #846
    Quote Originally Posted by Lilija View Post
    Heroic raiding is becoming harder and more demanding with each expantion. It's good for the need of challenge of top players. But it makes bigger barrier for anyone new who wants to join. Since hardcore raiders will eventually quit due to real life or simply growing up and having less time to play, raiding guilds need new recruits which are lacking since the start of Cata. And how WoW looked at the start of Cata?
    - no LFR
    - huge difficulty of 5 mans for pugs
    - raid pugs none existant till the next content was released and people started pugging previous content with some gear boost from new valor gear
    - removal of easy raiding content (shared lockouts and bringing 10man raid closer with difficulty to 25man)

    It's the huge difficulty jumps for anyone new to the game what started decay in the "new blood". This is what lies at the bottom of current problems. NOTHING else has as much impact on lack of new recruits than this. Everything else is a domino effect.
    If I could point to a spot on the decline chart, then this is where I would go.

  7. #847
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    You may not need more than 8 hours a week to successfully raid, but you do need to skew your priorities. The typical 30+ year old should be able to say the following to be able to raid successfully:
    • Hi, Honey! I know you've been stuck with the baby all day long and that you've just been waiting for me to get home so that you can catch a quick nap, but I'm raiding tonight. Sorry!
    • Sorry, Kiddo! I'd love to give you a hand with your math homework, but I'm raiding tonight. Tell your teacher you'll have your assignment done a day late. Thanks!
    • I didn't realize the school play was tonight! Unfortunately I'm raiding, so maybe you can record that play for me.
    • Why do we have to visit your parents again? It seems like only three months ago that I had to endure the in-laws! I'm raiding tonight anyway. Go on without me. I'll see them next time.
    • I know I have work in six hours, but we're really close to killing this boss. I can get by on four hours of sleep, I guess.
    It's not just about quantity of time. It's about being crazy enough to skew your priorities in favor of a video game. Most 30+ year olds aren't that crazy.
    This assumes that the vast majority of the raiding population is 30+ years old. A lot of people use the argument that the game is almost 10 years old now and that the general population is a lot older than it was in Classic. I don't have any numbers to support this (so I may be wrong here), but I would imagine that the majority of the population has started the game recently (most likely during WoTLK) and the average age of a WoW player hasn't changed much. Just because Final Fantasy is a 25+ year old game doesn't automatically make it's player base 40 year old people.

    That said, everyone has priorities outside of this game. Some can work around them (ex. raid on certain days, raid during certain hours) and some cannot/should not (ex. the examples you gave above). I don't think this has ever changed and raiding in general seems to be a much less time-consuming activity than it was previously.

  8. #848
    Dreadlord Arian21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    At this point in T12, about 30,000 guilds had killed Ragnaros (normal mode).

    Currently, 11.4K guilds have downed Lei Shen normal mode.[COLOR="red"]
    See ... that's the whole point of this conversation ... fewer and fewer guilds clear the wholesome of normal content .
    I can say that from the number of guilds in my server . It used to be over 200 guilds clearing normal in time and now we're left with about 15 I think .

    Seriously why is WoW going down so much ?

  9. #849
    Quote Originally Posted by paulleedot View Post
    This assumes that the vast majority of the raiding population is 30+ years old.
    My comment was not about the current raiding population. It was about the declining one, and it was in response to a quote that was in turn a response to this one:
    Quote Originally Posted by Atrea View Post
    OP, it's not as if the NES generation is dying out - it's just that we're getting older now (most of us are in our 30s), and our lives are moving beyond the time constraints that a hardcore raiding guild requires. At some point or another, I just realized that I can't spend 30+ hours a week playing a video game and have the life I wanted.

  10. #850
    Quote Originally Posted by john duo View Post
    why should i do that?
    why would i want to work for another player/s ?
    so they could rank me low and reap the fruits of my hard labor of mopping the raids floor waiting for the day they will promote me to member and i could win epics?

    its not right that players within the game can enjoy and abuse a form of power over other players, we all pay the same .
    you have a warped view of raid culture.

  11. #851
    Quote Originally Posted by Brodeo View Post
    you have a warped view of raid culture.
    I would argue that his view may of been warped by a few bad eggs ruining it for the majority of good guilds out there much like a few bad eggs doing nothing in LFR runing it for the majority of players.

  12. #852
    The Lightbringer
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arian21 View Post
    Seriously why is WoW going down so much ?
    Normal raiding is going down, for the reasons people mentioning. And normal raiding does not encompass all of wow.

    BC/LK raider ('07-'10)

  13. #853
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    You may not need more than 8 hours a week to successfully raid, but you do need to skew your priorities. The typical 30+ year old should be able to say the following to be able to raid successfully:
    • Hi, Honey! I know you've been stuck with the baby all day long and that you've just been waiting for me to get home so that you can catch a quick nap, but I'm raiding tonight. Sorry!
    • Sorry, Kiddo! I'd love to give you a hand with your math homework, but I'm raiding tonight. Tell your teacher you'll have your assignment done a day late. Thanks!
    • I didn't realize the school play was tonight! Unfortunately I'm raiding, so maybe you can record that play for me.
    • Why do we have to visit your parents again? It seems like only three months ago that I had to endure the in-laws! I'm raiding tonight anyway. Go on without me. I'll see them next time.
    • I know I have work in six hours, but we're really close to killing this boss. I can get by on four hours of sleep, I guess.
    It's not just about quantity of time. It's about being crazy enough to skew your priorities in favor of a video game. Most 30+ year olds aren't that crazy.
    This is so much true, even for younger people. I'd add:
    • I really don't feel like raiding tonight. Oh without me the raid can't start? Damn.
    • I have a last minute invitation from friends? Sorry, I'm raiding tonight.
    • I don't know if and when I'm going on vacation this year because of my work. Guess what, progression team doesn't like that.
    Organized raiding is just too demanding. At some point in your life it the flexibility allowed by LFR is just better than every other reward from Normal/Heroic.

  14. #854
    Quote Originally Posted by Stannis View Post
    This is so much true, even for younger people. I'd add:
    • I really don't feel like raiding tonight. Oh without me the raid can't start? Damn.
    • I have a last minute invitation from friends? Sorry, I'm raiding tonight.
    • I don't know if and when I'm going on vacation this year because of my work. Guess what, progression team doesn't like that.
    Organized raiding is just too demanding. At some point in your life it the flexibility allowed by LFR is just better than every other reward from Normal/Heroic.
    Borrowing from my previous post, nothing about organized raiding has changed. All of those examples you listed above could be applied to WoTLK raids - which a lot of people herald as the golden age of raiding (or any other raids/expansions).

    I personally find all the complaints against normal raiding to fall into two categories: If you have a very active social life outside of WoW* that may require you to miss out on raids, organized raiding may not be for you. If your raid team gets upset that you have a social life outside of WoW and that you may miss a few days here and there because of that*, your current team may not be for you. (replace * with whatever)

    I don't think anyone is against the convenience of LFR - people seem more up in arms about how LFR's (lack of) difficulty cheapens raiding and content. You can classify that as normal/heroic raiders getting "butthurt", but I would argue that the real argument is that LFR seems to be having an adverse-effect on the PvE community. This is why I'm a huge fan of flex raiding - it's a raid designed to satisfy both parties. LFR can satisfy the players who would never raid to begin with and simply enjoy seeing content...easy or not. Flex raiding satisfies players who want to see more challenging content but cannot due to time restrictions (or whatever other reason). Flex raiding also addresses normal/heroic raiders who complain that LFR encourages poor raiding habits and therefore dilutes the pool of potential recruits and competition (we all enjoy a little competition, right?).

  15. #855
    Quote Originally Posted by paulleedot View Post
    Borrowing from my previous post, nothing about organized raiding has changed. All of those examples you listed above could be applied to WoTLK raids - which a lot of people herald as the golden age of raiding (or any other raids/expansions).
    In WotLK you could take 10 players who were on at any given time into Naxx, Ulduar, and/or ICC and expect to kill something as long as the majority were well geared and/or could follow instructions. That is not the case now. If I'm in a raiding guild and I have to take a night off I've effectively killed my guild's progression for that night. If everyone is well geared there is pretty much no reason for them to raid that night because they aren't going to get anything out of it. That's what's changed.

    Quote Originally Posted by paulleedot View Post
    This is why I'm a huge fan of flex raiding - it's a raid designed to satisfy both parties. LFR can satisfy the players who would never raid to begin with and simply enjoy seeing content...easy or not. Flex raiding satisfies players who want to see more challenging content but cannot due to time restrictions (or whatever other reason). Flex raiding also addresses normal/heroic raiders who complain that LFR encourages poor raiding habits and therefore dilutes the pool of potential recruits and competition (we all enjoy a little competition, right?).
    I agree that flex raid has the potential to solve these problems.

  16. #856
    I think what has damaged some guilds is the tuning of new raids. Back in previous expansions raiding was easier, allowing casuals to raid, now progression is harder and a lot of casual raiding guilds have been hit hard. I'm not saying the raids in mists are too hard, but coupled with a system where you faceroll lfr the standard for casuals is lower and they have a big shock when they try to do normal raids

  17. #857
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    You may not need more than 8 hours a week to successfully raid, but you do need to skew your priorities. The typical 30+ year old should be able to say the following to be able to raid successfully:
    • Hi, Honey! I know you've been stuck with the baby all day long and that you've just been waiting for me to get home so that you can catch a quick nap, but I'm raiding tonight. Sorry!
    • Sorry, Kiddo! I'd love to give you a hand with your math homework, but I'm raiding tonight. Tell your teacher you'll have your assignment done a day late. Thanks!
    • I didn't realize the school play was tonight! Unfortunately I'm raiding, so maybe you can record that play for me.
    • Why do we have to visit your parents again? It seems like only three months ago that I had to endure the in-laws! I'm raiding tonight anyway. Go on without me. I'll see them next time.
    • I know I have work in six hours, but we're really close to killing this boss. I can get by on four hours of sleep, I guess.
    It's not just about quantity of time. It's about being crazy enough to skew your priorities in favor of a video game. Most 30+ year olds aren't that crazy.
    Well maybe these people don't have time to raid then. Such is life.

  18. #858
    Quote Originally Posted by NigelGurney View Post
    Well maybe these people don't have time to raid then. Such is life.
    That pretty much sums up the point I was making. Why are raid guilds dying out? Because experienced raiders don't have time to raid any more and current raiders only want to recruit experienced raiders.

  19. #859
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    That pretty much sums up the point I was making. Why are raid guilds dying out? Because experienced raiders don't have time to raid any more and current raiders only want to recruit experienced raiders.
    More likely the recruitment pool is depleted by LFR.

  20. #860
    Quote Originally Posted by NigelGurney View Post
    More likely the recruitment pool is depleted by LFR.
    Yeah. Because people would rather waste an hour and a half with 24 random strangers, one of whom is bound to be a troll, for a chance at subpar gear instead of spending 45 minutes with nine friends to clear the same content for guaranteed superior drops. That makes perfect sense. LFR is obviously at fault.

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