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  1. #41
    Your point about applications is way off. Any serious hardcore raiding guild won't care about your general gear/experience, it will look at your RELEVANT experience - maybe you downed LK25 hc top20 or had good parses in a medium/high level gear or achieved something else in game - I know many Gladiator players who passed their trials and heroic bosses when they just first stepped into the instance during their trials.

    Your second point is more or less spot on. After running through LFR a potential raider is more likely to continue running only LFR and keep himself busy with other things like pet battles or some other nonsense he might enjoy, thus not promoting normal/heroic raiding. Back in the day the goal was to down heroic bosses because that was everything there was in the game, bar PvP. You either played PVE to progress(no matter normal or heroic) or you PvPd, there simply wasn't any other major activity.

  2. #42
    Pit Lord HeatherRae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paisti View Post
    You got it there. I have cleared all content this game offers on HC when tier was relevant. I still support these nerfs. People cleared DS hc because it was out long, and most importantly because it was nerfed. Nerfing content is the easiest way to let more people experience harder content. Which in my opinion is fine, but I am probably the 1% minority here, as it has been seen how much crying the nerfs will make happen. I do wonder myself why people are so selfish that its bad if others clear something on hc after you've done so, oh well =P. I am just like that, not selfish at all IRL, but most people are as I also try to be realistic.
    The people who have a problem with that are the same people who scream if "casual bads" get the same looking gear. But the thing is, "casual" does not mean "bad," and even baddies are paying $15 a month to see content. There's nothing wrong with letting less progressed guilds achieve things. I mean, come on, does it make your achievement "less important" if a guild comes along 5 months after you and manages to clear the same content?

    I don't like artificial gating, and I think it's much healthier - for servers and for the game itself - to have people clearing the actual content instead of only seeing it in LFR.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-24 at 09:48 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    Wait... Your raiding guilds is dying out to LFR?

    Then you are doing something wrong...

    ...Looking for Raid has actually brought us more people willing to raid. And it's a good starter for everyone who wishes to start. Heck, easier to find people that are willing to prepare for raiding now with LFR than before...
    Then you are very lucky. This has not been what I have been seeing, and it has not been the experience of those I have mentored.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-24 at 09:48 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Hilde View Post
    I think it might not be that easy to get into a raiding guild either, jsut my impression. The way I got in was through a friend of mine, so not everyone might get it that way. I only had done a little raiding in Cata, so I wasn't used to raiding normals in progression. Thankfully they were nice people, and it might take a while to find that too.

    Just my impression that people who want pugs want people to overgear the content, already have done all of it and not make many mistakes, and that makes it difficult to start out. Perhaps its different on lower pop servers, I'm on a "full" one.
    It's worse on lower pop servers. On lower pop servers there isn't any pugging to speak of. And yes, what you're saying is spot-on with what I've seen in the last 6 months to a year of raiding.
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  3. #43
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    I will say this, I have done some normal progression raiding in the past (since Wrath). After Cata, I took the approach to MoP as I would not do that ever again. The guilds I have raided with for the most part were lucky to clear the content before the first nerf. They were really doomed from the start, so much complaining and yelling in vent, blaming others for someone else's failings. Doing LFR these days might seem mind numbing to most normal and heroic progression hardcore raiding guild. As someone that choose to drop out of the normal raiding scene, in lieu of going insane. I feel I may the right choice for myself. I done some filling in here and there in 5.0 and ToT, but I can't stand the constant belittling some people resort to in vent, just so they can feel superior. I am not one of those that get there panties in a twist when some make suggestion on how to do something better, I am all for constructive criticism. I mean the very nasty stuff that make little boys, feel like men on the internet.

    Most people resort to the mind numbing stuff, so they do not have to deal with all the petty little crap a few like to dish out, only because they can. Normal progression raiding is very fun, but I am really happy that I have another way to enjoy that experience now without all the crap. This is what most people want that just want to play the game. I also take the same approach to level a alt. I rarely go into a low level dungeon, it is like time wasted and lost that I can never get back. quest on the 8th or 9th alt through the same content over and over again gets really boring, but better than dealing with all the individuals that want to just want to screw around.

    That is my 2 cent worth, I will leave it to others to determine why they think raiding is in some ways dying. Too me, wiping on a boss a 100 or so time, is not a bad thing. just as long as you learned something from the other 99 wipes.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geminiwolf View Post
    I get the feeling that the whole "raid guilds dying" topic is becoming another "LFR QQ" thing. Anyway about the applications that some guilds require you to fill out, I think they're pretty ridiculous. Why should I have to waste time filling out some form like if I was signing up for a job. If a guild tells me to fill out an application I don't join because if a guild is going to be that stuck up I could only imagine how it would be to be in the guild with them and raid with them.
    The application process itself is designed to weed out people like yourself before ever even having to read your application. If you aren't even willing to fill out an application, then you aren't worth the time. It isn't a job, but like a job, they need to know that the people they are inviting are going to show up on time every time, and put in the effort.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by BatteredSausage View Post
    No but its an obvious anti-lfr thread.
    Nope. How is it anti-LFR? I don't see anyone in the thread asking for LFR to be removed. If anything the OP mentioned how LFR was the saviour of raidcontent as it exists...
    "Anarchism is famously opposed to the State, while at the same time advocating planned administration of things in the interest of the community."
    Today, anarchists dedicated to these goals often support state power to protect people, society and the earth itself from the ravages of concentrated private capital. That's no contradiction. People live and suffer and endure in the existing society.

  6. #46
    Pit Lord HeatherRae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchor View Post
    Nope. How is it anti-LFR? I don't see anyone in the thread asking for LFR to be removed. If anything the OP mentioned how LFR was the saviour of raidcontent as it exists...
    I'm not "anti-LFR," per se, but I think LFR has been used as an excuse by Blizzard to up the difficulty of Normal content. Which is great, really. Except that it's shut out a lot of guilds, and caused even more to fall apart.
    Tiriel <Demise> of US-Kel'Thuzad

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  7. #47
    We use Applications to make sure people are serious and know what there talking about... bring the player, kit is upgradable.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by HeatherRae View Post
    The majority? No. But the majority were part of small, casual guilds that trained up the minority which more progressed guilds picked up as "prospects." Now those feeder guilds are a thing of the past, because it is too easy to do LFR and too damn hard to get through normal.
    Another thing to consider here: It really, really sucks to run a "trainer guild". You put in the effort to find people to join your guild, train them up to the point where you can finally start progressing, and then they leave. You have to start again, while those you trained get to progress. This breaks smaller guilds.

    Top raiding guilds have been pillaging lesser guilds for years, and now they are suffering because they have basically killed the golden goose. If top guilds had put effort into training up new people, instead of cutting the legs out from under the smaller guilds, I think we'd have a lot more raiders today...

  9. #49
    Pit Lord HeatherRae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    Another thing to consider here: It really, really sucks to run a "trainer guild". You put in the effort to find people to join your guild, train them up to the point where you can finally start progressing, and then they leave. You have to start again, while those you trained get to progress. This breaks smaller guilds.

    Top raiding guilds have been pillaging lesser guilds for years, and now they are suffering because they have basically killed the golden goose. If top guilds had put effort into training up new people, instead of cutting the legs out from under the smaller guilds, I think we'd have a lot more raiders today...
    Quite honestly, we don't have the time to train brand new people. Nor do we have the inclination to do so. We're here for a specific part of the end game, but like any sensible raiders, we do value the guilds that provide us with new recruits.

    We didn't kill the goose that laid the golden egg, though. Blizzard did. Because the goose that laid the golden egg currently finds it so damn difficult to run normal content - NORMAL content - that it's just given up trying.
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  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchor View Post
    If anything the OP mentioned how LFR was the saviour of raidcontent as it exists...
    It was one of only two reasons that raiding guilds are dying out. How you could not read that as a criticism that LFR is bad and directly causing the decline of raiding is refusing to see what is in front of you. Then you merely have to look at the echoing sentiments of 'yeah, LFR killed my guild...LFR killed being able to recruit people...LFR killed raiding' in order to see how it's an anti LFR thread.

    I called it on the first page. Nothing new to see here.
    ----------------------
    In regards to the application notion being discussed, not having an application process would be irresponsible. Despite what people try to pass off, raiding is closer to a second job than people realize. It asks that you be somewhere on a schedule, have people depend on you, have you put in effort, in order to accomplish a goal.

    As a raid/guild leader, you can't just take that stuff on good faith or chance. Like someone else stated, simply having the application process removes a large percent of the worthless people who cba to spend 5 minutes in order to raid.
    BAD WOLF

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by HeatherRae View Post
    Quite honestly, we don't have the time to train brand new people. Nor do we have the inclination to do so. We're here for a specific part of the end game, but like any sensible raiders, we do value the guilds that provide us with new recruits.

    We didn't kill the goose that laid the golden egg, though. Blizzard did. Because the goose that laid the golden egg currently finds it so damn difficult to run normal content - NORMAL content - that it's just given up trying.
    Unfortunately, now it is your prerogative to do so. You'll have to make time; adapt or die.

    Things change, they've changed for the better and now people get to see more content than ever. In the process, Blizzard has basically created a built in trainer guild for you in terms of LFR. It can be a tool to help if you use it as such.
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  12. #52
    WoW is just getting old and tired. raids are being done to death, dungeons are boring, grinding valor is boring, dailies are boring, the endless gear grind is boring. there's nothing in the game you do where you utilize the gear you just spent months farming for, except obtaining new gear. blizzard needs to change the status quo. raiding shouldn't be the pinnacle of WoW end-game. it should most definitely be a part of it, but not the main.

    the game should be about having fun. grinding gear isn't fun. it's what you do with the gear afterwards that's fun. that said, i want to see more interesting games in WoW, like tower defense, dota, some kind of RTS game, etc.

    if i had it my way, an expansion would only have two raids: one at the beginning and one at the end. the starting raid gears you for the expansion, and the final raid gears you for the leveling in the next. if blizzard didn't spend so much time making raids, they could come up with some really fun new ideas imo.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by HeatherRae View Post
    Is it really a "choice" when there are no other real options for extremely casual and new players at this point?
    plenty of options - pvp, dungeons, challenge mode, scenario, dailies

  14. #54
    Titan Kelimbror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by orioxez View Post
    plenty of options - pvp, dungeons, challenge mode, scenario, dailies
    -PvP isn't PvE progression, which is what the point was.
    -Dungeons don't exist in this expansion...an admitted mistake by the devs.
    -Challenge modes are not for casual players, as they require a group and higher skill level and also don't progress your character.

    -Scenarios and Dailies are the only valid things you list and they are limited in scope and plateau.
    BAD WOLF

  15. #55
    I don't think it has to do with not enough new players, and only indirectly to do with LFR. People like to say it's because LFR ruined the game somehow, but the truth of the matter is it saved the raiding scene. It was never big, and it was only getting smaller. LFR simply gives people a way to raid without the headaches of traditional raiding. The guilds are dying out because frankly, with options like LFR around, people are realizing it's not worthwhile to treat the game like a job and be entirely dependent on a too serious guild to have any sort of fun. It's not fun to have a schedule, and it's not fun to be told what to do. For those who prefer the old way, the option's still there to do it. If it's that hard to find other players who share your tastes, perhaps you should evaluate why people don't want to instead of blaming LFR for giving them what they do want.

  16. #56
    Strict applicant rules are needed, otherwise these raiding guilds would fall apart due to Billy McCareless always wiping the guild on a difficult boss fight.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Inside View Post
    Do you get off on creating anti-wow threads or something?
    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchor View Post
    This is an anti-WoW thread? How?
    Posting here is a bit like posting on a board during the Soviet era. There are the members of the NKVD, there is the Political Commissar, and then there are the "communist party card carrying members" who tend to be more communist than the heads of the party themselves.

    Lenin help you if you dare to make a post even slightly critical to Pandas, Pokemon or the game itself just like publicly criticizing the Soviet regime was a big no-no during the Soviet era.

    Such level of freedom of speech cannot be tolerated, and offenders are put in their place by various ways. It is unthinkable that one may imply that MoP isn't the best thing that has happened to humanity after the discovery of penicillin, and it is of course hybris and profanity of the highest magnitude to imply that Comrade Stalin and the Politburo errrr I meant -GC and the Devs- might blunder.

  18. #58
    Raid guilds are dying out simply because the content is no longer exciting by the time you do it with your guild.

    I mean honestly Blizzard has been making some pretty lackluster raids with recolored boss models and generic storylines since Wotlk.
    Now the playerbase can pop into Lfr and unravel the entire storyline in under an hour so the only incentive's left for real raiders is the challenge and the gear.

    I mean their was a time in the past when raid gear was beneficial outside the raid (mainly pvp) but thats not the case anymore so why would I bother progressing when the only reward it offers is something that is only beneficial because it helps you finish the raid slightly quicker the next time you do it, even though the raid itself offers no incentive to do it.

    So yeah /lfr = complete story arc then unsub and wait for more content.
    At least back in the day you were forced to consistently progress your gear and farm bosses in order to overcome bosses you hadn't killed yet in order to reveal slightly more of the story arc.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Nekovivie View Post
    Strict applicant rules are needed, otherwise these raiding guilds would fall apart due to Billy McCareless always wiping the guild on a difficult boss fight.
    Application filling = Raiding Skill

    No wonder raiding guilds are dying.
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  20. #60
    Pit Lord HeatherRae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karosene View Post
    Unfortunately, now it is your prerogative to do so. You'll have to make time; adapt or die.
    It isn't going to happen. Where are we going to find the time to train new raiders? We already raid 20+ hours a week. You're delusional if you think that hardcore guilds will be able to do what you're talking about.

    Things change, they've changed for the better and now people get to see more content than ever. In the process, Blizzard has basically created a built in trainer guild for you in terms of LFR. It can be a tool to help if you use it as such.
    Every person I know - hardcore, casual, new - detests LFR. They run it because they feel obligated and because, for more casual and new players, they feel it is their only option.
    Tiriel <Demise> of US-Kel'Thuzad

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