Pretty much every raider doing 10mans would argue that its the same as 25mans at every level therefore they should be in the exact same race. Its pretty obvious why they wanted to be viewed as the same as 25man raiding so no point going into that 2 year old argument again now lol
Typical Blizzard take so fukking long to admit the forums were right, by which time its pretty much too late.
Why would anyone raid with LFR and flex raiding? I guess some people enjoy the challenge of organizing that many people together and doing a coordinated thing, but that's always been the minority of the playerbase. Blizzard knows this too well. That's why LFR has been such a smashing success that Blizzard doesn't even need to make new Heroic dungeons to keep casuals and small guilds satisfied. Flex raiding is just the final nail in the coffin of raiding elitism. Good riddance.
Guild Blog for <Debonair> EU, Zenedar.
This raises one question: From a "Most fun for most people"-angle, is propping up organized raiding as single best way to progress some more (Since i assume that's what's meant with "Radical changes to the overall raiding model") really the smart thing to do?
- - - Updated - - -
How about we look at the whole 10 vs 25 man thing from another point of view: If you were going out to a club tonight would you want to go to one with 9 other people there or 24 other people there? Sure it is easier to get 10 raiders together, but from a social aspect you likely are missing out on the richness of having a larger more diverse group of players.
Most people would rather die than think, and most people do. -Bertrand Russell
There is not a flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people. -Howard Zinn
Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them. -George Orwell
I've also been speaking with several people who would prefer to raid 25 mans but can't find a 25 man guild suiting their schedule and are only left with 10mans where the choise is much bigger.
25mans are more hassle and sometimes have more difficult encounters that aren't balanced with slightly faster gear progressiong (especially that it's RNG). The facts are that 25mans are disappearing at a rapid rate therefor they require slightly better incentive than 10mans in order to survive at all. Believe it or not many people would miss them - some might even quit the game completly if they are not able to raid 25mans anymore without fear that yet another guild they join disbands or changed into a 10man.
Haven't followed the thread but I have to flick in with my experiences to counter the "applications" argument.
Every guild I've applied to and where I was accepted was at a higher gear and experience level than I was. Why did they accept me? Most of them said that my application was well written and really seemed like I made an effort to impress.
It's the exact same reason why a lot of recruiters at real life jobs are looking at how well done a CV is, rather than solely what's on it. My current team leader worked as a recruiter for a few years and he said that he much rather hired someone with a lacking work history but a thought out CV because it shows that they put some effort into it and it is indicative that the person puts similar effort into the actual job.
TL;DR - 3 minute applications are more likely to get you denied. Put 20-30 minutes into it, make it nice and present it well.
Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler
Quick shower without soap/quick queue without having to learn the fights. Analogy is fine.
If people can't make specific raid times like 7p-11p, then find the times you can make. On my server there are guilds that raid ALL Times of the day. There's a 4p-8p guild, there's an 7-11, a 8-12, a 9-1, and there's a 3am-7am guild. "Not having time" is a poor excuse for "being too lazy to look".
I pity your narrow minded view
in response to:
What god given right do you assume you have to inflict your narrow minded view of what constitutes a right to play, that people who might actually enjoy LFR are somehow lesser beings that dont deserve access to wow?
People take enjoyment from many different aspects of the game. Its not for anyone else to judge whether its a worthy reason or not.
and as for:
Last edited by Ashardis; 2013-07-03 at 10:34 PM.
And even going back to when I applied to join the guild I now run -- I had very little raiding experience, and my gear was pretty weak. However, I did write a very earnest, thoughtful application. Years later becoming an officer I was able to go into the officer-only section of our forums and I got to see the discussion the guild had on my app (every app gets discussed by the guild, but it gets moved to an officer-only section before you join -- to encourage frank discussion).
I got accepted to trial based on one line in my app, under the question "What do you feel you will bring to (the guild)?" Part of my answer was (paraphrasing as I don't have easy access to our old forum at the moment): "an understanding that the characters on my screen belong to real people". The GM at the time had said, "I don't care if he only does 200 dps, this line right here gets him at least two weeks".
And as we are now, with most of our main raiders somewhere in the ilvl range of the 520s (some late 5-teens, some early 530s), someone would have to be damn undergeared for that to seriously impact our decision. We've been taking in folks with ilvls in the 480s and 490s as long as what gear they do have is properly maintained (gemmed/enchanted). As long as we can tell you've been putting effort in, and you're agreeable to our identity and operating procedures, we're willing to give you a shot. I wouldn't have ever made it in if I wasn't afforded the same opportunity. Some of our very best players ever, folks who I earnestly believe could be in race for world first guilds (and actually one person was, after having began raiding with us, then later returned after he retired from the super hardcore scene), started out not really having a clue about raiding but gave an honest effort at learning.
I don't expect everyone is going to be able to have the kind of experience where they find a guild that 100% hits every mark they're looking for ... honestly, I would love if my guild were a bit more progressed (we have one heroic in ToT down. I'd like to be at maybe 3 down at this point) ... everyone I've known who was in a hardcore raid guild said being well-progressed was just about the only thing they liked about it -- the atmosphere was just terrible ... I'm sure there are some hardcore raid guilds that have as good, or better, social atmosphere than even casual guilds ... who knows. Don't be afraid to look around and try to find like-minded people and start your own guild. There's bound to be a lot of people with the same progression/atmosphere goals as you, with the temperament and skill-set needed.
In Vanilla/TBC/WotLK the ONLY way to see the raid content was to raid.... and most of the time that involved raiding in a guild (although PuGs became a lot more popular in WotLK).
If you wanted to fully experience WoW, you HAD TO RAID. You had to commit time to going into a new zone with 10-40 people you found on your server... and if you truly wanted to see all the content, you had to be good. If you sucked, there was no way you would get to see the entire raid.
Now, all you have to do is hit max level and buy some BoEs, then stand in your capital city and queue. You can let 24 other people carry you through the content. Doesn't matter if you suck, you can see all the bosses. You can experience all the content. No reason to get better.
I'm sorry, and I am sure I will get flamed, but the reason RAID GUILDS are dying out is because of LFR (although having normal mode doesn't help). LFR is wonderful for WoW in the sense that it gains lots of committed subscriptions and has maintained WoW subscription level... but for raid guilds, LFR is terrible.
The reason new raiding guilds were popping up every week in TBC was because you had to raid to see the content. The reason raiding guilds are disappearing every week now is because you don't. Not saying LFR is bad, but simply answering the question of the thread.
If you can dedicate several hours of un-interrupted time on a regular basis per week. Good for you. Your life is different. Don't expect everyone to lead the same life as yours.
There are some really busy people out there who try to find time to play this game when they can. Just because you do not know any does not mean they do not exist.
The story of our times.
I used to raid in the back-end of BC and through most of Wrath in what I'd call a pretty decent progressions guild. (We got Sarth 3D 10 and 25 prior to Ulduar and pushed Ulduar hardmodes). There's a lot involved in running a raiding guild, and running it well was a whole different concept. Another factor was the reward benefit back then. 25mans had the higher item level.
"There is no honor in mediocrity."
And sometimes, those answers are both silly and sad at the same time, making this potential recruit sound like a troll - or an idiot. But hey, refusing him is clear proof guild is filled with elitist jerks. It couldn't possibly be his fault, after all.