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  • I don't like hybrid burst damage > their utility

    43 38.05%
  • I don't feel this is the problem with Hybrids right now

    70 61.95%
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  1. #41
    I am Murloc! Balduvian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lulbalance View Post
    a decurse, a 6 min cd heal boost [even though op]., a 6 sec clone every 20s.. and a root... does not make you a controller of games.

    and your class' dmg is literally obscene. literally.
    Except that you missed a truckload of spells and abilities here. Seriously, Feral damage is good, but their utility is way better.

    Actually, Feral burst is lower than those of Rogues, Hunters, Mages, Spriests, Destro Locks, Ret Pala's, and hell...kind of on par with even Warriors.

    Feral's strong point lies in their great sustained damage and utility combined. The burst on command is a bonus and can be a game-breaker, but it's usually not the winning factor.

    If Feral is to be nerfed anyway, nerfs should take place regarding their utility, nothing else.

    Quote Originally Posted by stickyjam View Post
    what?? ferals damage is WAY high. OP levels.
    I merely said feral utility > feral damage. As far as I can see, that doesn't mean feral damage is shit.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Itisamuh View Post
    I just hate that hybrids can do as much damage as non hybrids and still have great healing. One or the other is fine, but not both.
    I think great healing is an overstatement.

    Not saying certian builds can't heal.... but to call it "great healing" might be exaggeration.
    Last edited by mickybrighteyes; 2013-06-25 at 08:58 PM.

  3. #43
    Mechagnome ipoststuff's Avatar
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    Any time a hybrid dps is viable they must be nerfed!! So pures can reign supreme!

    Which dps specs had it better in arena since it was introduced?
    paly,shaman,druid or rogue,mage,lock,hunter

    yeah..

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Dundebuns View Post
    That has now changed. Hybrid now means 'A class that can respec and fulfill a different role'. This means the only pures left are Rogues, Mages, Hunters and Warlocks.
    No, this is not the definition of a pvp hybrid, at least in my books. The definition of a pvp hybrid is a non-healing spec that can cast healing spells. This means rets, enh, feral are the melee hybrids, and boomkin, spriest, and ele are the caster hybrids. Self-healing and other related things do not count. I honestly don't know enough about WW monks to classify them nor do I care to look it up right now.

    I think the definition of hybrids is really the issue here. Tank specs have never been a considered a pvp hybrid. However, hybrids like spriests can heal and dps in one spec, therefore hybrid.

  5. #45
    I think one of the reasons that people disagree with the OP is because of how strong Warlocks, Hunters, and Mages currently are in PVP. As someone who plays multiple level 90 characters I can honestly say that I feel as if my Druid, Priest, Paladin, and Shaman each have multiple specs that are more viable than the entire Rogue class. While playing my Rogue that is one of the things I note; how very little I can do to increase my team mate's survival in comparison to what they can do for me. I generally feel fairly guilty after my hybrid team mate keeps me alive through things like HoP, heals, Ring of Peace etc. and when they need me to return the favor there is literally nothing I can do unless you count generic abilities every hybrid also has such as snare, or stun.

    Warriors are also in a similar state. Why should a Feral Druid have better damage, CC (roots, cyclone, stuns, faerie fire etc), stealth, and survivability than a Warrior and still get things like off heals too? This is just a generic example too. You should have seen the look on my face when I realized my windwalker monk could dispell himself and other players.

    I'm not saying that Hybrids should be gimped or worse than all pures, but that there probably does need to be an exchange. It would be silly to give pures the ability to heal other players, so either buff pures CC significantly, or decrease Hybrid CC significantly to compensate. Or just straight up nerf hybrid offhealing to the point where it is negligible. Messing with damage isn't going to happen because of PVE (which I feel has an even larger disparity than PVP, but that's a different subject).
    Last edited by achromatickang; 2013-06-25 at 10:19 PM.

  6. #46
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Spriests, Rets, Ferals, Balance, Eles, Enhs and Windwalkers generally bring more dispel-like effects (root breaks or the like) and some off-healing.

    Mages, Locks, Rogues, and Hunters have the most control in the game.

    Warriors and DKs are some of the hardest specs in the game to control, but are susceptible to roots.


    Sustained damage is actually quite balanced across the board - burst damage however varies, but not to a huge degree: and not always in favour of hybrids, take a look:

    Rets, Ferals, Balance, Eles, Enhs, Windwalkers, Unholy DKs and Warriors all have burst windows every 2-3 minutes that are very dangerous, but rare (2-3 minutes).

    Spriests and Affliction Locks don't really have burst windows like anyone else - ours are significantly weaker, so that our damage is more like a Sine wave based on Shadow Orbs or Soul Shards. This is both good and bad, since pressure isn't all that relevant nowadays - and burst is pretty much everything.

    Mages, Rogues, Hunters, Destro and Demo Locks all burst quite hard - and they do it every 1 minute or less, not the 2-3 minute cycles that the other classes have. Shadowdance up until the Find Weakness nerf was comparable to the 2-3 minute cooldowns of the other hybrids, except it was once a minute - Beastial Wrath is just the same. Locks work a little differently, but dropping a couple Chaos Bolts or Waves on people once a minute was comparable burst to an Avatar'd warrior or an Ascended shaman (apart from the CB double-resil bug).

    Every 30 seconds a frost mage can burst at least as hard as any spriest or afflock can every 2-3 minutes (Dark Soul/Shadowfiend): and fmage burst is much harder to counter than interrupting Insanity or DS-Malefic Grasp. Every minute an Fmage can burst as hard as the 2-3 minute cooldowns of the other hybrids.

    So to say that hybrid burst damage is high is a bit of a misnomer when we don't account for the frequency of burst. Similarly, to say that hybrid utility is high - when pure control (a form of utility) is way higher than hybrid, is also pretty bizarre.

    Lastly, pures in MoP are almost never the kill targets for the enemy teams - it's only when you fight a double-pure team like MLS or Thugcleave that people want to kill a pure target: Pure survivability is notably better than many hybrids (ignoring rogues pre-5.2, because rogues didn't exist at that time).

    I would like to see a radical re-design of a number of the more popular hybrid specs though, and I've started work on such an idea for Shadow (with hints at other specs) over in the Priest forums - but I don't think it's ready yet for major public scrutiny. Briefly, I would like to push some hybrids toward non-healing support, other hybrids toward healing-support, and pures toward burst damage - with control mostly divided amongst them all evenly - but instant CCs mostly removed.

    Edit: Here's that thread if you are interested Lulbalance Still a very rough draft, but particularly the intro should help show where I think the idea could go: I basically want more specialized roles, especcially within the very broad "support" category (since that seems to include all specs nowadays).
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  7. #47
    Pandaren Monk
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cairhiin View Post
    I think it's fine if you want to reduce hybrid damage in PvP, but then all selfheals from pures need to be taken away. You can't have both.
    This is the bottom line. If Warriors, DK's, Rogues, Locks, etc want to bitch about hybrids having heals and similar damage to them, take away Recupe, Dark Regen, Conversion/Death Coil, Second Wind, etc.

    But these will not be taken out of the game. It's the way the game works. Many of these hybrid classes don't have multiple defensive cooldowns like other specs, at least not incredibly powerful ones.

  8. #48
    Brewmaster Naztrak's Avatar
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    I find it amusing that CB took so much nerfs and warlocks are getting more in 5.4, and yet we have "good" burst at best. But ele can litteraly global people without ascendance and boomy/feral put insane burst also. And no, I dont play destro.

  9. #49
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    My only issue with hybrids is their healing. Especially moonkin healing is, sorry to put it this way, fucking retarded. Shadow priest healing was pretty absurd at the start of MoP, but at least they ran out of mana. Moonkins, Rets, Enhancement shamans, ele shamans, windwalker monks all doesn't seem to run out of ressources.

    After spending 10 minutes losing to a aff lock/moonkin comp in 2s at a mere 1900 mmr while trying to cap points you start to face reality.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Funkthepunk View Post
    My only issue with hybrids is their healing. Especially moonkin healing is, sorry to put it this way, fucking retarded. Shadow priest healing was pretty absurd at the start of MoP, but at least they ran out of mana. Moonkins, Rets, Enhancement shamans, ele shamans, windwalker monks all doesn't seem to run out of ressources.

    After spending 10 minutes losing to a aff lock/moonkin comp in 2s at a mere 1900 mmr while trying to cap points you start to face reality.
    Windwalker monks; To heal requires dumping lots of energy into healing spheres for roughly 25-30k healing a piece. they cost 40 energy. They can dump all their burst into healing though through healing elixirs with tiger's eye brew. If you actually see a monk doing that in arena though it should be an easy win.

    Ele shams; If you force the sham into doing this kind of absurd healing your thinking of it should be an easy win since the sham won't be able to put out any pressure.

    Enh sham: 2 Hard casted heals and they are oom. Until recently they would oom from just not having 100% uptime on their target. Similar to rets they sacrifice damagae and control (hex has a 45sec cd though) in order to do instant healing surges through maelstrom weapon.

    Ret paladins: To do absurd healing requires dumping all their holy power into Word of Glory so you don't even have to worry about those 70k templar verdicts.

    A boomkins healing is a 6min cd that lasts for 45 seconds. Not too hard to just kite and play defensively for that period of time.

    Yes, while the current state of pvp hybrids don't tend to run out of resources anymore they instead have a negative side effect when putting out "absurd" healing.

  11. #51
    The Lightbringer
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coraulten View Post
    Windwalker monks; To heal requires dumping lots of energy into healing spheres for roughly 25-30k healing a piece. they cost 40 energy. They can dump all their burst into healing though through healing elixirs with tiger's eye brew. If you actually see a monk doing that in arena though it should be an easy win.

    Ele shams; If you force the sham into doing this kind of absurd healing your thinking of it should be an easy win since the sham won't be able to put out any pressure.

    Enh sham: 2 Hard casted heals and they are oom. Until recently they would oom from just not having 100% uptime on their target. Similar to rets they sacrifice damagae and control (hex has a 45sec cd though) in order to do instant healing surges through maelstrom weapon.

    Ret paladins: To do absurd healing requires dumping all their holy power into Word of Glory so you don't even have to worry about those 70k templar verdicts.

    A boomkins healing is a 6min cd that lasts for 45 seconds. Not too hard to just kite and play defensively for that period of time.

    Yes, while the current state of pvp hybrids don't tend to run out of resources anymore they instead have a negative side effect when putting out "absurd" healing.
    It's not the fact that they are less capable of dealing damage during their 'healing period', but it's the fact that that they are perfectly capable of keeping themselves or their partner alive forever while waiting for DRs, instant CCs and CDs. If you use CDs to out pressure their healing they just counteract with their own defensive CDs.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Funkthepunk View Post
    It's not the fact that they are less capable of dealing damage during their 'healing period', but it's the fact that that they are perfectly capable of keeping themselves or their partner alive forever while waiting for DRs, instant CCs and CDs. If you use CDs to out pressure their healing they just counteract with their own defensive CDs.
    Thats completely your fault if you let a hybrid keep their partner up forever. Your either not CCing Correctly, or not putting enough pressure out. Sure they can keep themselves and maybe a partner up for a decent amount of time but not forever.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Yvaelle View Post
    Spriests, Rets, Ferals, Balance, Eles, Enhs and Windwalkers generally bring more dispel-like effects (root breaks or the like) and some off-healing.

    Mages, Locks, Rogues, and Hunters have the most control in the game.

    Warriors and DKs are some of the hardest specs in the game to control, but are susceptible to roots.


    Sustained damage is actually quite balanced across the board - burst damage however varies, but not to a huge degree: and not always in favour of hybrids, take a look:

    Rets, Ferals, Balance, Eles, Enhs, Windwalkers, Unholy DKs and Warriors all have burst windows every 2-3 minutes that are very dangerous, but rare (2-3 minutes).

    Spriests and Affliction Locks don't really have burst windows like anyone else - ours are significantly weaker, so that our damage is more like a Sine wave based on Shadow Orbs or Soul Shards. This is both good and bad, since pressure isn't all that relevant nowadays - and burst is pretty much everything.

    Mages, Rogues, Hunters, Destro and Demo Locks all burst quite hard - and they do it every 1 minute or less, not the 2-3 minute cycles that the other classes have. Shadowdance up until the Find Weakness nerf was comparable to the 2-3 minute cooldowns of the other hybrids, except it was once a minute - Beastial Wrath is just the same. Locks work a little differently, but dropping a couple Chaos Bolts or Waves on people once a minute was comparable burst to an Avatar'd warrior or an Ascended shaman (apart from the CB double-resil bug).

    Every 30 seconds a frost mage can burst at least as hard as any spriest or afflock can every 2-3 minutes (Dark Soul/Shadowfiend): and fmage burst is much harder to counter than interrupting Insanity or DS-Malefic Grasp. Every minute an Fmage can burst as hard as the 2-3 minute cooldowns of the other hybrids.

    So to say that hybrid burst damage is high is a bit of a misnomer when we don't account for the frequency of burst. Similarly, to say that hybrid utility is high - when pure control (a form of utility) is way higher than hybrid, is also pretty bizarre.

    Lastly, pures in MoP are almost never the kill targets for the enemy teams - it's only when you fight a double-pure team like MLS or Thugcleave that people want to kill a pure target: Pure survivability is notably better than many hybrids (ignoring rogues pre-5.2, because rogues didn't exist at that time).

    I would like to see a radical re-design of a number of the more popular hybrid specs though, and I've started work on such an idea for Shadow (with hints at other specs) over in the Priest forums - but I don't think it's ready yet for major public scrutiny. Briefly, I would like to push some hybrids toward non-healing support, other hybrids toward healing-support, and pures toward burst damage - with control mostly divided amongst them all evenly - but instant CCs mostly removed.

    Edit: Here's that thread if you are interested Lulbalance Still a very rough draft, but particularly the intro should help show where I think the idea could go: I basically want more specialized roles, especcially within the very broad "support" category (since that seems to include all specs nowadays).
    2 glaring things i take issue with in here but mostly some good points imo.

    1 - ferals [its late so i'm only gonna write a little] - best sustained pressure of any melee class, so i take issue with the claim that they're only scary every 2-3 minutes because they arent - they're dangerous every TF and trink proc. literally can kill you with just those + a non-retarded dps teamate. that ties in with what i was saying about their damage out-weighing their util, you can play jungle to 2200+ using about 8 buttons..sure they're with hunters.. but that still disgusts me.

    anyways

    2 - pures are never trained.. you know better. lol.

    pures are actually better kill targets most of the time in hybrid / pure comps. esp if you a run a comp capable of cross cc, which is every decent comp in mop]. [probably too absolute to say what i said next there since i only play wizard comps..but the general point is - pures are not hard to kill if you're afraid of getting through the defensives.]

    imo you can do that and generally have more success then trying to kill [take your pick of the hybrid doing the carry]. obv its not exclusive and you dont close your eyes and run after them.. but they're kill targets, we've been doing it all season and we're doing alright. it's disingenuous to use that a claim for anything to do with hybrid balance atm.

    3 - ill check out the link mang, thanks!

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-27 at 07:23 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUntsAhts View Post
    But these will not be taken out of the game. It's the way the game works. Many of these hybrid classes don't have multiple defensive cooldowns like other specs, at least not incredibly powerful ones.

    i hope that's a fkn joke.

    i'd take spammable heals over over just about and defensive on any pure i play no matter how badly 4-5 flash heals [or equivalent] strained my mana, man wtf? dark regen doesn't work on my partners.
    Last edited by Lulbalance; 2013-06-27 at 07:30 AM.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shahada View Post
    The devs aren't stupid.

  14. #54
    I thought all the "Make others have less fun then me!" threadcreators went on to "remove lfr!" topics. Very refreshing to read one of those again!

    Also: No. There are no hybrids or pures anymore. Just damage dealer. And they are all allowed to have fun.
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    A sure sign of someone who wears his underpants on his head."

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by schwank05 View Post
    I feel that the Pure DPS specs should always without question be the top DPS. A Hybrid in a perfect setting should never beat a Pure, otherwise what incentives are there to play a pure DPS? If they aren't top than there is really no reason for them to even exist.
    That is incompatible with Blizzard's bring-the-player design. If hybrids did less DPS than pures then min-maxing guilds wouldn't take any hybrid DPS to a raid. Similar disincentive to take them in PVP teams.

    The hybrid thing is not an intrinsic advantage because you can only fill one role at a time. Either you're a Resto shammy or an Ele shammy, you don't get the benefits of both in one spec. So it's immaterial.
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  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by owbu View Post
    I thought all the "Make others have less fun then me!" threadcreators went on to "remove lfr!" topics. Very refreshing to read one of those again!

    Also: No. There are no hybrids or pures anymore. Just damage dealer. And they are all allowed to have fun.
    uhm..pretty intelligent critique of an OP in which i said i play both hybrid and pure classes. kudos on that.

    Also: i'm pretty sure that last line was wtf i was talking about.. maybe you should read the post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shahada View Post
    The devs aren't stupid.

  17. #57
    The Lightbringer
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coraulten View Post
    Thats completely your fault if you let a hybrid keep their partner up forever. Your either not CCing Correctly, or not putting enough pressure out. Sure they can keep themselves and maybe a partner up for a decent amount of time but not forever.
    It depends strictly on the setup and map you're playing. I know 'forever' is hardly realistic for most setups, yet surviving in intervals of 20-40 seconds while waiting for instant CC and DRs is usually enough. In the case of the moonkin druid/aff lock example, you're hardly ever going to kill any of them if they decide they want to survive (depending on your setup). Now put in a z-axis and it's a hundred times worse.

  18. #58
    Herald of the Titans Syridian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by schwank05 View Post
    I feel that the Pure DPS specs should always without question be the top DPS. A Hybrid in a perfect setting should never beat a Pure, otherwise what incentives are there to play a pure DPS? If they aren't top than there is really no reason for them to even exist.
    Tbh, when a ''hybrid'' class goes with their DPS spec, they are a DPS. What determines the difference between say, a ret paladin and a destro warlock? Healing? Both classes can do that. Utility? Both classes can do that. Powerful burst or CDs? Both got that too. I'd say there was definitely a difference between hybrids and pure DPS back in say, TBC. Now though? Semantics at best.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Syridian View Post
    Tbh, when a ''hybrid'' class goes with their DPS spec, they are a DPS. What determines the difference between say, a ret paladin and a destro warlock? Healing? Both classes can do that. Utility? Both classes can do that. Powerful burst or CDs? Both got that too. I'd say there was definitely a difference between hybrids and pure DPS back in say, TBC. Now though? Semantics at best.
    Um, no. You are missing the point. A ret can help his teammates a warlock cannot outside of fear. Playing a DK the best thing I can do to help my team is grip every 25 seconds which is useless most of the time, perhaps a stun every 30 seconds if I am specced into that, but mainly damage. I have to peel with raw damage. Let me tell you in todays game of tunnel down before you get tunneled down that don't work. Warlocks can fear to peel and silence and maybe stun if they are specced for it. Rets can heal, stun, blind, bop, freedom, sac, snare and do damage to peel. Which class is the hybrid?

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrean View Post
    Um, no. You are missing the point. A ret can help his teammates a warlock cannot outside of fear. Playing a DK the best thing I can do to help my team is grip every 25 seconds which is useless most of the time, perhaps a stun every 30 seconds if I am specced into that, but mainly damage. I have to peel with raw damage. Let me tell you in todays game of tunnel down before you get tunneled down that don't work. Warlocks can fear to peel and silence and maybe stun if they are specced for it. Rets can heal, stun, blind, bop, freedom, sac, snare and do damage to peel. Which class is the hybrid?
    I think you might need to rework your strategies if you're not hitting the ret.

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