View Poll Results: generally, a poll to waste time at work.

Voters
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  • I don't like hybrid burst damage > their utility

    43 38.05%
  • I don't feel this is the problem with Hybrids right now

    70 61.95%
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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Helltrixz View Post
    I think you might need to rework your strategies if you're not hitting the ret.
    When did I say anything remotely close to that? I am talking about ability. Ret/Enhance/Feral/Ele/Boomkin/Spriest are what I consider the hybrids. The thing that sets them apart is their ability to assist in keeping another player alive. Be it through healing, defensive cooldowns that are usable on other players, good peeling abilities like clone or just raw damage output to force a retreat. You saying that ret cannot use their tools because they are being trained is missing the point on what makes a hybrid a hybrid and at the same time making it sound like the best strategy in 3v3 games is to endlessly tunnel a single player regardless of what is going on in the match. Have fun never getting past 2100 with that kind of strategy.

  2. #62
    The reason why support classes have such high burst is because in pvp if all we cared about was doing damage we would be playing our class incorrectly. All hybrids have mediocore dmg outside of CDs and that's because if you play it right your comp should be focused on lining up cc for proper kills or off healing and mitigating dmg while controling the opponents dps. And then after 1 minute burst again.

  3. #63
    @OP:

    There is some truth to your analysis. However, there is no longer any defined border between 'hybrids' (and most ppl seem to define these as "any class with both a dps and a healing spec") and 'pure' dps. The 'pure' dps can do insane amounts of self-healing, compared to earlier patches. And so 'hybrids' (shaman, druid, monk, paladin, priest) can also do a lot of damage. There is no longer any 'hybrid tax'.

    This is good for the game - as long as Blizzard is able to differentiate between the specs. In fact, the self-healing part insures that 'pure' dps has survivability. I often see locks able to heal close to a dedicated healer - but only self-healing.

    Regarding the other part of your argument: Last I checked, mages and rogues didn't lack burst. And neither did destro locks. So of all the 'pure' classes (locks, mages, rogues, hunters) it seems that affliction locks are the ones with least burst. It seems like your argument is rather "'pure' should do more burst than 'hybrid'". But dont trivialize your huge damage contribution, even though it's not bursty enough for you. It gives your opponents a lot of problems and develops high pressure, leading to a win. It's just not big numbers on your screen.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrean View Post
    When did I say anything remotely close to that? I am talking about ability. Ret/Enhance/Feral/Ele/Boomkin/Spriest are what I consider the hybrids. The thing that sets them apart is their ability to assist in keeping another player alive. Be it through healing, defensive cooldowns that are usable on other players, good peeling abilities like clone or just raw damage output to force a retreat. You saying that ret cannot use their tools because they are being trained is missing the point on what makes a hybrid a hybrid and at the same time making it sound like the best strategy in 3v3 games is to endlessly tunnel a single player regardless of what is going on in the match. Have fun never getting past 2100 with that kind of strategy.
    2100 please, that's not even duelist. You can easily tunnel one target beyond that if you play with a hunt, the game is just this shit.

    So you're saying ret has better utility than a lock? I don't think so at all. Imo dispel, gateway and spammable fear > ret utility. The only reason I'd still call rets hybrids is because they can stand and cast heals, but definitely not for utility anymore. Cleanse, stun dispel on freedom and healing being unique to a few classes are long gone.

  5. #65
    Just wanted to add that the specs with the passive 15% damage reduction deserved no compensation for the nerf. Balance druids firing off instant starsurges for 90k+ crits with no cds popped shouldn't getting crit by csmashed slams with all cds popped for less than 50k.

    ALL hybrids ARE over the top because they bring more utility, defensives, support, burst AND sustained than mages, warriors, death knights and rogues. Warlocks compensate by having a ridiculous defensive and control toolset and same with hunters. Spriests are an exception to all of the above. Mages actually compensate by literally 2-3 shotting people through defensives on PTR right now.
    Last edited by Flaks; 2013-06-28 at 12:48 AM.
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  6. #66
    I see this as a problem stemming from Blizzards constant attempt to please everyone. I understand that subs bring in the money so they will continue to do what the masses scream for but this is what happens. Over the years people would say "I want that, its not fair toon X can do that but mine can't" and this crap is what we get.

    Dps classes should do more damage, hybrids should do good damage and have most of the team utility, while healers have heavy heals with almost no real dps and a couple utilities. The problem is the game has become all about number with dps meters ruling the show. No longer do people just care about having fun and getting through content, its all about bringing whoever has the highest dps and is not stupid--thats it! (I'm speaking generally of course) This could easily be solved if they pulled a few things from healers and dps and made the hybrid classes have utility that is almost a must to have in raids and is fun for the player, then they would still be needed in both pve and pvp. Of course I know this will never happen cause it make too much sense and people will just cry that they don't have all the abilities as everyone else.

    A little more on topic with OP, I believe "hybrid" dps is a bit out of control considering the extent of heals coupled with the dps. I think it's a little more inflated because of the burst in the game, maybe sustaned they arent as good which is more relevant in pve, but great burst with the ability to heal yourself and partner pull makes a huge diff in this mop bursty arena fiasco.

    Disclaimer: I hate class "blancing"! The way people are screaming for, thats not balancing. Soon we will have one class.

  7. #67
    Bloodsail Admiral Lulbalance's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ozone View Post
    I see this as a problem stemming from Blizzards constant attempt to please everyone. I understand that subs bring in the money so they will continue to do what the masses scream for but this is what happens. Over the years people would say "I want that, its not fair toon X can do that but mine can't" and this crap is what we get.

    Dps classes should do more damage, hybrids should do good damage and have most of the team utility, while healers have heavy heals with almost no real dps and a couple utilities. The problem is the game has become all about number with dps meters ruling the show. No longer do people just care about having fun and getting through content, its all about bringing whoever has the highest dps and is not stupid--thats it! (I'm speaking generally of course) This could easily be solved if they pulled a few things from healers and dps and made the hybrid classes have utility that is almost a must to have in raids and is fun for the player, then they would still be needed in both pve and pvp. Of course I know this will never happen cause it make too much sense and people will just cry that they don't have all the abilities as everyone else.

    A little more on topic with OP, I believe "hybrid" dps is a bit out of control considering the extent of heals coupled with the dps. I think it's a little more inflated because of the burst in the game, maybe sustaned they arent as good which is more relevant in pve, but great burst with the ability to heal yourself and partner pull makes a huge diff in this mop bursty arena fiasco.

    Disclaimer: I hate class "blancing"! The way people are screaming for, thats not balancing. Soon we will have one class.
    pretty rare on this board that i can't argue with anything said in a lengthy post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shahada View Post
    The devs aren't stupid.

  8. #68
    The Patient Ramaloce's Avatar
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    You would think that hybrids would be more about utility then pures, but as you clearly stated and proven that's simply not the case. From my point of view the logical explanation for this is simply the bases of what both sides bring to the table:

    Hybrid: Damage,Utility, and on demand healing to any friendly target.
    Pure: Damage, Utility.

    So since the amount of dps both sides need to do has to be roughly the same (for PvE) the "Damage" portion of both sides cancel each other out. So that just leaves Utility(pure) Vs. Utility and healing (hybrid). So the only way to answer the question of "Why should I bring a pure?" is "More Utility". As it stands it's the only way it can be done right now for this current expansion. This is how I end up seeing it from my point of view.

  9. #69
    There are no hybrids in this game anymore. Havn't been for years. There are locked down trees and the abilities of DPS specs in game are balanced to the same degree as other pure dps classes. There is not a single DPS spec in the game that no longer has dmg reducing or healing effects that work the same way as those of hybrids. Secondly... if hybrids are healing... then its not efficient and in ALL cases they are not able to do any burst damage while healing.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-28 at 04:58 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Ozone View Post
    I see this as a problem stemming from Blizzards constant attempt to please everyone. I understand that subs bring in the money so they will continue to do what the masses scream for but this is what happens. Over the years people would say "I want that, its not fair toon X can do that but mine can't" and this crap is what we get.

    Dps classes should do more damage, hybrids should do good damage and have most of the team utility, while healers have heavy heals with almost no real dps and a couple utilities. The problem is the game has become all about number with dps meters ruling the show. No longer do people just care about having fun and getting through content, its all about bringing whoever has the highest dps and is not stupid--thats it! (I'm speaking generally of course) This could easily be solved if they pulled a few things from healers and dps and made the hybrid classes have utility that is almost a must to have in raids and is fun for the player, then they would still be needed in both pve and pvp. Of course I know this will never happen cause it make too much sense and people will just cry that they don't have all the abilities as everyone else.

    A little more on topic with OP, I believe "hybrid" dps is a bit out of control considering the extent of heals coupled with the dps. I think it's a little more inflated because of the burst in the game, maybe sustaned they arent as good which is more relevant in pve, but great burst with the ability to heal yourself and partner pull makes a huge diff in this mop bursty arena fiasco.

    Disclaimer: I hate class "blancing"! The way people are screaming for, thats not balancing. Soon we will have one class.
    So why should a dps spec pure class do more dmg than DPS spec hybrid class? How are you going to justify that in PVE ? Because they can use their "utility there"? No they can't. Because they can switch specs if they want to do other roles ? No... Thats what only Pure classes can do and that way have MORE utility in the same gear than any hybrid class in the current expansion.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Duster505 View Post
    So why should a dps spec pure class do more dmg than DPS spec hybrid class? How are you going to justify that in PVE ? Because they can use their "utility there"? No they can't. Because they can switch specs if they want to do other roles ? No... Thats what only Pure classes can do and that way have MORE utility in the same gear than any hybrid class in the current expansion.
    Honestly I would love to reply to this with a resonable response but I have no idea what you are trying to say. I can't follow this comment at all. I think you are disagreeing with me wich is fine. I'm not saying right now they can, I was saying what Blizzard should do but won't because the masses want every class to have all the same spells (different names).

    Heres an idea, make hybrid classes have one spec healer, one spec utility (like a tank or special utility nobody has) with weaker dps and light heals, and thrid spec pure dps with no healing? Pallys are close to this already, take away ret healing, give more defense "utility" and sustained higher dps. Prot healing is garbage already so leave it. Just tossing out ideas, I like reading my own posts lol

  11. #71
    Bloodsail Admiral Lulbalance's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ramaloce View Post
    You would think that hybrids would be more about utility then pures, but as you clearly stated and proven that's simply not the case. From my point of view the logical explanation for this is simply the bases of what both sides bring to the table:

    Hybrid: Damage,Utility, and on demand healing to any friendly target.
    Pure: Damage, Utility.

    So since the amount of dps both sides need to do has to be roughly the same (for PvE) the "Damage" portion of both sides cancel each other out. So that just leaves Utility(pure) Vs. Utility and healing (hybrid). So the only way to answer the question of "Why should I bring a pure?" is "More Utility". As it stands it's the only way it can be done right now for this current expansion. This is how I end up seeing it from my point of view.
    yea i would say this is a pretty good point, imo. i was basically suggesting they bring back hybrid tax from BC to skew the equation you pointed out of D/u/Hof hybrids vs D/U of pures.

    so much damage in MoP means you basically need less utility to land kills. IE - you don't need my lock to chain a couple fears together or even land a CS when we kill in 1 full fear and silence.. whats the point of spammable CC then really? [<- slight exaggeration but you catch my drift.. more util. is useless if classes can just kill in a single CC window.]

    Quote Originally Posted by Shahada View Post
    The devs aren't stupid.

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