This thread is just oozing with "10 Man is easier then 25 Man" undertones.
The fact is, both have their difficult fights, and both have their easy fights. Transitioning from a 10 to 25 Man set up takes more then a few weeks to get used to.
You cant really say one is easier than the other just by switching.
Going from 25 to 10:
-you will take the best 10 players you can get, Ill bet you the bad players in you 25m are not in one of your 10m groups or not on the harder bosses.
-beeing this far into the content with new upgrades, and 25m have alot better gear by now with the higher average ilvl.
Going from 10 to 25:
-If you change to a raid that has more heroics than you, you will find 25 much easier, if you they have less you will find 25m harder cause you are wiping on the boss youve already killed.
overall 10m is a bit easier thats true, but I some that changed to a 25m raid and said 25m is easier.
Also it depends on which bosse you are on.
And it really doenst matter I raid 10m cause I hate raiding 25m, usually 1/3 are total jerks. I usually play melee way to crowded, like to actually see my char. I find 10m to be much smoother beeing a GM and RL, if you test someone and he is a jerk or is too bad, I just say no sry we are not taking you.
If you like 25m, cause there are more people and it feels more epic that way. Go for a 25m.
If you like 10m, cause you feel more special and you find it better cause you like the people you raid with go 10.
Choosing one over the other cause its easier or harder doenst make any sense, its not like 10m is freeloot on hc nor is 25m hc.
Although if I had to pick the best thing about 25 man raiding it's how people die and nobody even cares. Oh Billy is dead? Eh save the Bres, Billy didn't really matter anyways.
Let's not forget that because the expectation is that you have more people, and therefore more healing available, mechanics are more punishing on 25. This results in the joyous occasion where if something goes wrong with a cooldown, such as when one of our stronger healer's tranq was interrupted during overload on heroic iron quon, people get murdered somethin' fierce.
Similar for tank damage. As a brewmaster, I simply don't have enough health to tank the bats on heroic tortos without retooling my gear severely. Kiting's my only option. I'm pretty damn confident that if I was to tank that fight on 10, I could have a field day spinning to win on some bats, and padding the shit out of the meters.
The only situations that I see 25 come out ahead are where you're able to throw more interrupts or dispels or cooldowns at a single problem, or similarly, an extra tank. At least when it isn't a tuning problem, such as heroic empress.
Balance is pretty damn close between 10 and 25 man now, with some bosses on either side being more difficult. Certain classes are almost manditory for 10 man, which is a problem that needs to be addressed (namely Paladins - they shouldn't be able to negate tank-swap mechanics the way they do) - and of course the same thing can be said of 25 man in certain situations but they tend to not need to abuse the same mechanics (they abuse different ones to help spreading and soaking AoE damage).
Game still has a way to go balance wise, but its slowly getting better.
Imagine if the tank dmg was exactly the same. Heroic tortos 10man is done with 2 healers, ive seen plenty of 25man doing it with 6. That is 3 times the cd's not even mentioning the hybrids you will be stuffed with in 25man. You could cd through every single bat spawn, and it will feel easier then 10man tanking.
Biased = biased.
Oh look, it's that discussion again. I think Blizzard did balance out 10/25 difficulty quite fine in ToT.
But yes, of course there still are differences, and until you have full homogenization among classes you cannot prevent them.
First of all, it is a lot harder to manage and to have enough players for 25 raids. And it is even a lot harder to manage and to have enough good players for 25 raids.
The personal responsibility is less in 25 raids, but that doesn't mean you can slack if you want to progress. A famous example would be ultraxion, where 10 player mode had significantly less dps requirements per person than 25 player.
On the other hand, raid composition plays a major role in 10 player raids. If you have no one who can dispell diseases you are going to have a hard time at Horridon. But if you have two warlocks in 10 player mode for Iron Qon, you trivialize a phase that otherwise requires some learing or at least practicing.
Then we have class imbalances, right now a prot paladin can heal on hard hitting fights almost as much as a full healer in 10 player modes and making fights easier this way, or you can single tank a fight which of course has a higher impact on 10 player raids than on 25 player raids. Or brewmaster monks or guardian druids that offer (on single target fights) about 70-90% dps of a dps class. What if you are "stuck" with a DK and a warrior tank? Again this might happen also in 25 player raids, but the impact is less and also the odds that you cannot replace them.
I think the difficulty level in 10 player mode covers a broader area (from easy to hard) than 25 player mode, and depends on the factors I've described above.
By the way, my old realm has a 13/13 H 10 man guild that only raids 8 hours a week during progression. http://www.wowprogress.com/guild/us/.../Full+Spectrum
WoL link to prove they never add extra hours: http://worldoflogs.com/guilds/109127/
Are there any 13/13 H 25 man guilds that only raid 8 hours a week during progression? The closest I know is Nurfed and they do 12 hrs a week.
---------- Post added 2013-06-25 at 01:43 PM ----------
The problem is here we're using two definitions for the word hard/challenging: in-game mechanics, and possibility of completion. The latter, for sure, is harder in 25s; otherwise, far more guilds would be clearing 25 for the better rewards. As it is, we're literally the only 25 guild on our server, Horde and Alliance.
I didn't say the actual bosses were harder. I said that there's confusion/misinterpretation in this thread because people are interpreting the words 'hard' and 'challenging' differently. Sure, the encounters may be in theory equal difficulty - with some variability, like Qon easier on 10s and Horridon easier on 25s. But the difficulty of completing the raid is in another sense more difficult because of talent scarcity.
Should totally change this argument to raiding as Alliance is easier than raiding as Horde. Go.
Shadiscoly Priest - http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...iarae/advanced
Protribution Pala - http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...ishyk/advanced
Stream of bads wiping lots - http://www.twitch.tv/kiaqt
A lot of people in here seem to not have fully read the OP.
They did not equip themselves for 2 months and then formed a 10 man raid out of their best players, including a overpowered prot-paladin. They actually raided 25m for 6 weeks and then formed TWO 10 man groups, both doing extremely well, one group killing 3 new bosses and the other group killing 2 new bosses in the first week. The overpowered prot-paladin was in the "worse" group, that only managed to kill 2 new bosses.
So actually, they took at least 20 good players out of their 25 man raid (assuming everyone has a 100% raid attendance, so they only needed the best 20 players for this (lol) ) and had extremely good results. According to the OP, their 25m raid (wich could mathematically only contain a maximum of 5 bad players, according to your logic) only managed to kill 3 heroic bosses during their 6 weeks of heroic raiding and then, all of a sudden, they could take down 2-3 new bosses in one week. Sure, that must have been those 1-2 bad players in their 25m group (damn, that is incompatible to the "25m can carry a few bads"-thing, btw). Especially for a boss like council, where they could just let their bad players die und finish the boss without them due to their super inflated item-level.
I don't really care about the whole 10 vs 25 thing, but the arguments of the 'don't-insult-my-10man-elite!'-crowd in this thread are just nonsense. You didn't even read the OP and just make things up.
Last edited by Wyand1337; 2013-06-25 at 09:56 PM.
Ever thought of the possibility, that they probably took more than 20 people to form their two groups and actually let some of their members rotate? Perhaps its even EVERYBODY of their former 25m group, who is participating in one of their two new groups?
"If they were successful in 10 and not in 25 the reason is likely that 10m is way more easy than 25m, because its all the same people participating in their two 10m groups."
See what I did there? I just made things up that I don't really know, so I can support my argument. You should stop doing that, if you want your arguments to be considered valid.
Last edited by momirmaster; 2013-06-25 at 10:08 PM.