Back to 10 man raiding

[Moshots]

I find it is the 10 man raiders that like to hi-jack threads like this and turn them into 10 versus 25 man difficulty threads... I wonder why that is? My guess, insecurity.

not really they do it cause OP decided to flame 10 man raiding himself by the way he posted it. 10 man during progression is a different ballgame than 10 vs 25 now. Dread the 25 man on our server had 8 ilvl's over us when we killed server first ra-den in 10 man. if your taking 25 man gear where LOL everyone has full bis after like 3 raids then yes 10 man is easier. if your a real 10 man raider who has been doing it all tier and still have people in your raid who has been farming ra-den for 4-5 weeks now and they still are 535-538 ilvl instead of 540+ like any 25 man raider in even a half decent guild 11/13hm+

[Hyve]

This thread is just oozing with "10 Man is easier then 25 Man" undertones.

The fact is, both have their difficult fights, and both have their easy fights. Transitioning from a 10 to 25 Man set up takes more then a few weeks to get used to.

[Xjev]

The fact that there are more 10 man guilds among top 20 in this tier, beating those 25 guilds with history and heavy raid schedule: http://www.wowprogress.com/ compared to last tier: http://www.wowprogress.com/rating.tier14 hints 10man might be a bit tuned easier this time around.

[Deleted]

The fact that there are more 10 man guilds among top 20 in this tier, beating those 25 guilds with history and heavy raid schedule: http://www.wowprogress.com/ compared to last tier: http://www.wowprogress.com/rating.tier14 hints 10man might be a bit tuned easier this time around.

Yes, you are right. Those 10 man guild have a 2 day raid schedule. *sigh*

[Viromand]

You cant really say one is easier than the other just by switching.

Going from 25 to 10:
-you will take the best 10 players you can get, Ill bet you the bad players in you 25m are not in one of your 10m groups or not on the harder bosses.
-beeing this far into the content with new upgrades, and 25m have alot better gear by now with the higher average ilvl.

Going from 10 to 25:
-If you change to a raid that has more heroics than you, you will find 25 much easier, if you they have less you will find 25m harder cause you are wiping on the boss youve already killed.

overall 10m is a bit easier thats true, but I some that changed to a 25m raid and said 25m is easier.
Also it depends on which bosse you are on.

And it really doenst matter I raid 10m cause I hate raiding 25m, usually 1/3 are total jerks. I usually play melee way to crowded, like to actually see my char. I find 10m to be much smoother beeing a GM and RL, if you test someone and he is a jerk or is too bad, I just say no sry we are not taking you.

If you like 25m, cause there are more people and it feels more epic that way. Go for a 25m.
If you like 10m, cause you feel more special and you find it better cause you like the people you raid with go 10.

Choosing one over the other cause its easier or harder doenst make any sense, its not like 10m is freeloot on hc nor is 25m hc.

[Applenazi]

I raid 10 man, I am fine with that, but I am not delusional enough to think that 25 is more leniant or something. I know that I have chosen the path of lesser resistance and I am fine with that. I do not see the point in trying to fool myself that I am raiding the harder size when it is fairly obvious I am not.

As a 25 man raider this doesn't seem to be the case in any way, shape, or form. Sometimes I can't help but laugh out loud at how much more leeway a 25 man raid has, the only thing more challenging about 25 man raiding is finding 25 genuinely good people. But yeah, having a major cooldown if not two for every single mechanic without even getting creative about it is... pretty serious business.

Although if I had to pick the best thing about 25 man raiding it's how people die and nobody even cares. Oh Billy is dead? Eh save the Bres, Billy didn't really matter anyways.

[Woceip]

And the same goes for 25man raiders who take their best 10 ppl and raid 10 man, have no business to claim any authority. Both sizes have their own issues. You are just talking logistically it is harder to find 25 good players then 10 good players, wich is obvious. It doesn't make the actual bosses harder though.

Done 10s. Done 25s. Something people forget is that the more people you add to the equation, the higher your odds of one of them coming up 'derp'. Even on simple fights like Jinrokh, that can put a large damper on your progression, especially cuz morale goes down.

Let's not forget that because the expectation is that you have more people, and therefore more healing available, mechanics are more punishing on 25. This results in the joyous occasion where if something goes wrong with a cooldown, such as when one of our stronger healer's tranq was interrupted during overload on heroic iron quon, people get murdered somethin' fierce.

Similar for tank damage. As a brewmaster, I simply don't have enough health to tank the bats on heroic tortos without retooling my gear severely. Kiting's my only option. I'm pretty damn confident that if I was to tank that fight on 10, I could have a field day spinning to win on some bats, and padding the shit out of the meters.

The only situations that I see 25 come out ahead are where you're able to throw more interrupts or dispels or cooldowns at a single problem, or similarly, an extra tank. At least when it isn't a tuning problem, such as heroic empress.

[Durandro]

You had 2 months worth of 25 man loot, inflating your item level by a massive amount. You then picked the 10 most geared and capable players from your 25 man... and you're trying to argue that 10 man is a joke?

I can do Mogushan Vaults in my Heroic T15 gear, and argue that T14 was too easy too.

Exactly! The same argument was being made during Wrath of the Lich King, where guilds would farm bosses on 25 man for the superior loot and then faceroll through 10 man and declare it as 'easy'. Of course its easy when you're using gear half a tier higher then what even the end boss drops!

Balance is pretty damn close between 10 and 25 man now, with some bosses on either side being more difficult. Certain classes are almost manditory for 10 man, which is a problem that needs to be addressed (namely Paladins - they shouldn't be able to negate tank-swap mechanics the way they do) - and of course the same thing can be said of 25 man in certain situations but they tend to not need to abuse the same mechanics (they abuse different ones to help spreading and soaking AoE damage).

Game still has a way to go balance wise, but its slowly getting better.

[Deleted]

Done 10s. Done 25s. Something people forget is that the more people you add to the equation, the higher your odds of one of them coming up 'derp'. Even on simple fights like Jinrokh, that can put a large damper on your progression, especially cuz morale goes down.

Let's not forget that because the expectation is that you have more people, and therefore more healing available, mechanics are more punishing on 25. This results in the joyous occasion where if something goes wrong with a cooldown, such as when one of our stronger healer's tranq was interrupted during overload on heroic iron quon, people get murdered somethin' fierce.

Similar for tank damage. As a brewmaster, I simply don't have enough health to tank the bats on heroic tortos without retooling my gear severely. Kiting's my only option. I'm pretty damn confident that if I was to tank that fight on 10, I could have a field day spinning to win on some bats, and padding the shit out of the meters.

The only situations that I see 25 come out ahead are where you're able to throw more interrupts or dispels or cooldowns at a single problem, or similarly, an extra tank. At least when it isn't a tuning problem, such as heroic empress.

First of all, it is impossible to go through the progress path on both sizes the same tier. Once you have done it once, you are not progressing anymore so it will make a huge difference. So no you haven't done both, you have done 1 of the 2 for real and the other one for giggles.

Imagine if the tank dmg was exactly the same. Heroic tortos 10man is done with 2 healers, ive seen plenty of 25man doing it with 6. That is 3 times the cd's not even mentioning the hybrids you will be stuffed with in 25man. You could cd through every single bat spawn, and it will feel easier then 10man tanking.

Biased = biased.

[Puri]

Oh look, it's that discussion again. I think Blizzard did balance out 10/25 difficulty quite fine in ToT.

But yes, of course there still are differences, and until you have full homogenization among classes you cannot prevent them.
First of all, it is a lot harder to manage and to have enough players for 25 raids. And it is even a lot harder to manage and to have enough good players for 25 raids.

The personal responsibility is less in 25 raids, but that doesn't mean you can slack if you want to progress. A famous example would be ultraxion, where 10 player mode had significantly less dps requirements per person than 25 player.

On the other hand, raid composition plays a major role in 10 player raids. If you have no one who can dispell diseases you are going to have a hard time at Horridon. But if you have two warlocks in 10 player mode for Iron Qon, you trivialize a phase that otherwise requires some learing or at least practicing.

Then we have class imbalances, right now a prot paladin can heal on hard hitting fights almost as much as a full healer in 10 player modes and making fights easier this way, or you can single tank a fight which of course has a higher impact on 10 player raids than on 25 player raids. Or brewmaster monks or guardian druids that offer (on single target fights) about 70-90% dps of a dps class. What if you are "stuck" with a DK and a warrior tank? Again this might happen also in 25 player raids, but the impact is less and also the odds that you cannot replace them.

I think the difficulty level in 10 player mode covers a broader area (from easy to hard) than 25 player mode, and depends on the factors I've described above.

[Outofmana]

You could also go and raid LFR with 25man, you will get decent progress as well!

[NeverStop]

By the way, my old realm has a 13/13 H 10 man guild that only raids 8 hours a week during progression. http://www.wowprogress.com/guild/us/.../Full+Spectrum
WoL link to prove they never add extra hours: http://worldoflogs.com/guilds/109127/

Are there any 13/13 H 25 man guilds that only raid 8 hours a week during progression? The closest I know is Nurfed and they do 12 hrs a week.

[trystero]

So recruiting, something that is done by officers and happens outside of raiding, makes it harder to raid 25man ?
Brilliant logic, you dear sir, won the interwebz today

Did you even read what I wrote? Either you just ignored it or the conversation's a little too nuanced for you...

---------- Post added 2013-06-25 at 01:43 PM ----------

And the same goes for 25man raiders who take their best 10 ppl and raid 10 man, have no business to claim any authority. Both sizes have their own issues. You are just talking logistically it is harder to find 25 good players then 10 good players, wich is obvious. It doesn't make the actual bosses harder though.

From my original post,

The problem is here we're using two definitions for the word hard/challenging: in-game mechanics, and possibility of completion. The latter, for sure, is harder in 25s; otherwise, far more guilds would be clearing 25 for the better rewards. As it is, we're literally the only 25 guild on our server, Horde and Alliance.

I didn't say the actual bosses were harder. I said that there's confusion/misinterpretation in this thread because people are interpreting the words 'hard' and 'challenging' differently. Sure, the encounters may be in theory equal difficulty - with some variability, like Qon easier on 10s and Horridon easier on 25s. But the difficulty of completing the raid is in another sense more difficult because of talent scarcity.

[Orion Antares]

By the way, my old realm has a 13/13 H 10 man guild that only raids 8 hours a week during progression. http://www.wowprogress.com/guild/us/.../Full+Spectrum
WoL link to prove they never add extra hours: http://worldoflogs.com/guilds/109127/

Are there any 13/13 H 25 man guilds that only raid 8 hours a week during progression? The closest I know is Nurfed and they do 12 hrs a week.

Yep. It is easier to assemble 10 people willing to read, research, and plan outside raid to be ready for raid than it is to assemble 25 people that will all do the same.

[Kyrstlol]

Should totally change this argument to raiding as Alliance is easier than raiding as Horde. Go.

[Deleted]

A lot of people in here seem to not have fully read the OP.
They did not equip themselves for 2 months and then formed a 10 man raid out of their best players, including a overpowered prot-paladin. They actually raided 25m for 6 weeks and then formed TWO 10 man groups, both doing extremely well, one group killing 3 new bosses and the other group killing 2 new bosses in the first week. The overpowered prot-paladin was in the "worse" group, that only managed to kill 2 new bosses.

So actually, they took at least 20 good players out of their 25 man raid (assuming everyone has a 100% raid attendance, so they only needed the best 20 players for this (lol) ) and had extremely good results. According to the OP, their 25m raid (wich could mathematically only contain a maximum of 5 bad players, according to your logic) only managed to kill 3 heroic bosses during their 6 weeks of heroic raiding and then, all of a sudden, they could take down 2-3 new bosses in one week. Sure, that must have been those 1-2 bad players in their 25m group (damn, that is incompatible to the "25m can carry a few bads"-thing, btw). Especially for a boss like council, where they could just let their bad players die und finish the boss without them due to their super inflated item-level.

I don't really care about the whole 10 vs 25 thing, but the arguments of the 'don't-insult-my-10man-elite!'-crowd in this thread are just nonsense. You didn't even read the OP and just make things up.

[Shmeh]

A lot of people in here seem to not have fully read the OP.
They did not equip themselves for 2 months and then formed a 10 man raid out of their best players, including a overpowered prot-paladin. They actually raided 25m for 6 weeks and then formed TWO 10 man groups, both doing extremely well, one group killing 3 new bosses and the other group killing 2 new bosses in the first week. The overpowered prot-paladin was in the "worse" group, that only managed to kill 2 new bosses.

So actually, they took at least 20 good players out of their 25 man raid (assuming everyone has a 100% raid attendance, so they only needed the best 20 players for this (lol) ) and had extremely good results. According to the OP, their 25m raid (wich could mathematically only contain a maximum of 5 bad players, according to your logic) only managed to kill 3 heroic bosses during their 6 weeks of heroic raiding and then, all of a sudden, they could take down 2-3 new bosses in one week. Sure, that must have been those 1-2 bad players in their 25m group. Especially for a boss like council, where they could just let their bad players die und finish the boss without them with their super inflated item-level.

I don't really care about the whole 10 vs 25 thing, but the arguments of the 'don't-insult-my-10man-elite!'-crowd in this thread are just nonsense. You didn't even read the OP and just make things up.

If they were successful in 10 and not in 25 then they likely had 5 people preventing them from being successful, and removed 5 bads from the equation in going to 10. It's not hard to grasp that.

[Deleted]

If they were successful in 10 and not in 25 then they likely had 5 people preventing them from being successful, and removed 5 bads from the equation in going to 10. It's not hard to grasp that.

So you are a member of their raid? You claim, they run both of their 10m groups with just 20 people, so they have the exact same setup everytime.
Ever thought of the possibility, that they probably took more than 20 people to form their two groups and actually let some of their members rotate? Perhaps its even EVERYBODY of their former 25m group, who is participating in one of their two new groups?

"If they were successful in 10 and not in 25 the reason is likely that 10m is way more easy than 25m, because its all the same people participating in their two 10m groups."
See what I did there? I just made things up that I don't really know, so I can support my argument. You should stop doing that, if you want your arguments to be considered valid.

[Moshots]

A lot of people in here seem to not have fully read the OP.
They did not equip themselves for 2 months and then formed a 10 man raid out of their best players, including a overpowered prot-paladin. They actually raided 25m for 6 weeks and then formed TWO 10 man groups, both doing extremely well, one group killing 3 new bosses and the other group killing 2 new bosses in the first week. The overpowered prot-paladin was in the "worse" group, that only managed to kill 2 new bosses.

So actually, they took at least 20 good players out of their 25 man raid (assuming everyone has a 100% raid attendance, so they only needed the best 20 players for this (lol) ) and had extremely good results. According to the OP, their 25m raid (wich could mathematically only contain a maximum of 5 bad players, according to your logic) only managed to kill 3 heroic bosses during their 6 weeks of heroic raiding and then, all of a sudden, they could take down 2-3 new bosses in one week. Sure, that must have been those 1-2 bad players in their 25m group (damn, that is incompatible to the "25m can carry a few bads"-thing, btw). Especially for a boss like council, where they could just let their bad players die und finish the boss without them due to their super inflated item-level.

I don't really care about the whole 10 vs 25 thing, but the arguments of the 'don't-insult-my-10man-elite!'-crowd in this thread are just nonsense. You didn't even read the OP and just make things up.

10 man is tuned around 2 pieces of loot half of which gets de'ed. there are 2 13/13hm guilds on my server us and dread We killed lei shen and ra-den first. although within hour's of them dread has a 545.20 ilvl we have a 540.20 ilvl . that might not seem like alot but think before upgrades during progression. they had a 538ish when they killed lei shen we had like a like 532 ilvl. if they would have went 10 man they would have killed it too. If we had there ilvl we would have killed it a week earlier we had a 3% wipe pre item upgrades. we killed it the Wednesday after upgrades. The point is 10 vs 25 in terms of pure numbers your right 10 is easier. But in terms of during progression 25's have 5+ilvl gear higher on average than a 10 man so a 25 going to 10 man isn't a good judge of the content. Cause 25 man gear invalidates one of the challenges of raiding 10 man. We had people still waiting for 4 set's when we killed ra-den lol. tell me 1 25 man that doesn't have full offspec 4 set's.

[Deleted]

I find it is the 10 man raiders that like to hi-jack threads like this and turn them into 10 versus 25 man difficulty threads... I wonder why that is? My guess, insecurity.

It started with the very first Post of this Thread you.. well i dont wanna get banned