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  1. #1
    Scarab Lord Grubjuice's Avatar
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    Why is it necessary for Flame Shock and Earth Shock to share a cooldown?

    It seems like the shared cooldown between ES and FS, while perhaps serving to separate the true cooldown masters from everyone else, doesn't really serve any useful purpose, and is left over from earlier iterations of the game when perhaps it made sense.

    I feel like Flame Shock should have no cooldown and VERY VERY tiny direct damage, just like Glyphed Riptide (or 'Water Shock', as it ought to be called), where as Earth Shock can retain it's short cooldown.

    Perhaps someone can explain why the two spells sharing a cooldown is useful or important?

  2. #2
    Field Marshal Ismaire's Avatar
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    Earth, Frost and Flame Shock share a cooldown.

    If i recall correctly, this kind of discussion ends in mentioning some pvp issues in most cases.

    For Elemental it is not a big deal since addons like TellMeWhen, PowerAuras, WeakAuras or whatever can tell you when there will be problem or you learn watching your stuff.

    Don't know if it is a problem for Enhancement...
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  3. #3
    people will say it's about managing shocks is a core part of the spec and rotation and shows a skill level in doing so.

    i don't really agree it's an annoyance that generally involves wasting a ton of lightning shield stacks everytime you need to refresh flame shock, it's also hell in pvp since we need to cast the most we're easily locked down, and choosing between earth fire and frost shock is really annoying when you really need those slows(frozen power) to survive you can't use ls stacks or flame shock for instant lava burst.

  4. #4
    Scarab Lord Grubjuice's Avatar
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    i know earth shock, back in the day, was an interrupt (until Windshear was created to pull that function out as separate ability) and so it made sense that frost shock and earthshock shared a cooldown for PvP purposes.

    even now it's reasonable that frost and earth shock share a cooldown, but not flame shock. That could be used as a multi-dot ability like so many other casters get (Sun/moonfire, SW:Pain, immolate/corruption/doom/agony/unstable-affliction).

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Grubjuice View Post

    even now it's reasonable that frost and earth shock share a cooldown, but not flame shock. That could be used as a multi-dot ability like so many other casters get (Sun/moonfire, SW:Pain, immolate/corruption/doom/agony/unstable-affliction).
    i'd rather it didn't thats mean we'd take a heavy nerf on single target damage because blizzard would have to greatly lower the proc chance of lava surge, imagine council 4 mobs, start the fight usual pull, ascendance cds etc, then flame shock all 4 bosses....now you're basically spamming lava burst the whole fight......yeh that's not going to be allowed so lava surge would drop to like 8%, now single target fights like lei shen( no adds are alive long enough to flame shock) our single target plummets because we're dependant on having 3-4 flame shocks up.

  6. #6
    Scarab Lord Grubjuice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Socialhealer View Post
    i'd rather it didn't thats mean we'd take a heavy nerf on single target damage because blizzard would have to greatly lower the proc chance of lava surge, imagine council 4 mobs, start the fight usual pull, ascendance cds etc, then flame shock all 4 bosses....now you're basically spamming lava burst the whole fight......yeh that's not going to be allowed so lava surge would drop to like 8%, now single target fights like lei shen( no adds are alive long enough to flame shock) our single target plummets because we're dependant on having 3-4 flame shocks up.
    how would it be different from Affliction procs of nightfall off multiple Corruptions? or Balance procs of Starsurge off multiple Sun/Moonfires?

    it's not as if that mechanic CAN'T be balanced so that Multi-dot and single target are both still viable,

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Grubjuice View Post
    how would it be different from Affliction procs of nightfall off multiple Corruptions? or Balance procs of Starsurge off multiple Sun/Moonfires?

    it's not as if that mechanic CAN'T be balanced so that Multi-dot and single target are both still viable,
    Because their damage is balanced with that level of multidot in mind, and shaman's aren't.
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  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Grubjuice View Post
    how would it be different from Affliction procs of nightfall off multiple Corruptions? or Balance procs of Starsurge off multiple Sun/Moonfires?

    it's not as if that mechanic CAN'T be balanced so that Multi-dot and single target are both still viable,
    balance isn't so great at single target and movement, elemental is so much better, but if you start adding adds into the fight with some hp balance can overtake elemental, so i fear elemental would go the same way, probably get much better when there's adds but single target....shit, and we already have godmode lightning the strongest 4-7 mob cleave ingame, if you love multidotting elemental just isn't for you never has been.

  9. #9
    Scarab Lord Grubjuice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Socialhealer View Post
    balance isn't so great at single target and movement, elemental is so much better, but if you start adding adds into the fight with some hp balance can overtake elemental, so i fear elemental would go the same way, probably get much better when there's adds but single target....shit, and we already have godmode lightning the strongest 4-7 mob cleave ingame, if you love multidotting elemental just isn't for you never has been.
    that's a fair assessment.

  10. #10
    Imho managing shocks is only relevant for those small time windows when FS lasts for only 6 seconds and you reach full stacks of LS. All the other time, it is absolutely irrelevant in PvE.

    I do not favor a total removal of any CD of the shocks or the removal of the shared shock idea. That still has a certain purpose in PvP so that you are not spamming shocks like crazy. However, may be adjusting the system to, lets say: used shock gets full CD duration (could even be a bit higher than now!) while all other Shocks only share half of the CD - a semi-shared CD. That idea is not even knew afaik!

    Well, who knows what might come! I also never expected "Darth Shamans" to rise from the depths of the PTR!Tt
    Last edited by Xentres; 2013-06-25 at 03:56 PM.

  11. #11
    Shocks shared a cooldown since vanilla, where shamans would've been op being able to spam shocks.
    Weak as they are now though, it wouldn't be profitable to spam them in any case.

    Flame Shock not having a cooldown (or a lower one) for me makes sense from a pvp pov foremost, because enh uses it to cement ST's target, and ele has both instant lvb's and higher lvb damage riding on it. With FS being dispellable, ele is rather easy to burst counter.

    Frost Shock having a separate cooldown would be very much needed esp for ele pvp, as ele is in need of every little kiting utility they can get their hands on.

    FS getting lower upfront damage, Frs having its damage reduced and ES as a gap filler for enh/fulm unleash for ele, I see nothing op behind it.
    Exception as always could be resto, which, for w/e reason, could gain an advantage out of it, becoming op.
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  12. #12
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    It forces a choice. If you use Earth Shock just before Flame Shock runs out, that will cost you DPS, because you made the wrong choice. Similarly, purging off the LS charges via ES as often as possible is similarly a skill factor.

    That doesn't mean these are hugely complicated and skillful requirements. Nothing about WoW DPS rotations is "hard", regardless of the spec. Each factor involved is a ball; anyone can toss a boll and catch it, over and over. The trick comes from tossing 5-6 balls simultaneously and keeping them all in the air.

    Just because it's easy to toss a ball doesn't mean it's easy to juggle. That's what takes "skill". That's why we use the term "skill factor"; it's not the sole repository of skill in the rotation, it's another ball you have to keep in the air to perform well.

    If you're complaining because it interferes with refreshing Flame Shock or you're losing Lightning Shield charges, that's good. That means the system is working as it's meant to. If the game was intended to let you perform optimally with minimal input and choice on behalf of the player, they'd just let the class do the rotation for you while you sit and watch.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Grubjuice View Post
    how would it be different from Affliction procs of nightfall off multiple Corruptions? or Balance procs of Starsurge off multiple Sun/Moonfires?

    it's not as if that mechanic CAN'T be balanced so that Multi-dot and single target are both still viable,
    Well night falls proc Chance is only 5%, boomies proc is based on crit of their dot even tho they hav 2 dots

  14. #14
    Legendary! Tommo's Avatar
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    I dont really play a Shaman, but ive always been under the impression that your supposed to be making a choice about what shock you want to use. Do you sacrifice a slow for damage, ect.

  15. #15
    @Endus

    I agree with the overall idea behind your post, but as I already stated, I am not quite sure about the impact of the current shock management on actual dps.

    As I said, for shock management, only the last 6 remaining seconds of FS are important in my opinion. During the whole other time, you can use your shock CD for whatever you want. If there is no point in multidotting during a fight, shock management is not important for the rest of the fight because you simply use your ES with 7 stacks and FS is simply ticking on the target until it hits those "important" 6 remaining seconds.

    As you said, at the end of FS uptime, you have to choose. But in my opinion, this is again quite straight forward if there are no special circumstances. If you have still 6 seconds and 6-7 LS charges -> use ES. If you do not yet have enough LS charges or are below 6 remaining seconds of FS-> refresh FS before discharging your LS charges. Many times this decision will be quite easy, because you just shocked before the 6 remaining seconds of FS and simply do not have enough LS charges. Imho this is not really such an important "skill factor". Afaik you even stated in your guide that you could even use ES with less than 6-7 stacks to avoid wasting charges while refreshing FS, resulting in only minor DPS influences ("Early Shocks" in your guide).

    What I sometimes stumble over during fights is the question: How to react to trinket procs?
    Reaching 10 Stacks of Wush -> Cast ES with 6-7 LS charges and delay refresh FS by 1-2 seconds or cast LB (maybe LvB) instead and refresh FS as usual? There is even the possibibilty that you have 7 LS charges and reach 10 Stacks of Wush exactly when you might refresh FS -> which one is to choose?
    Unerring Vision -> Cast ES with 6-7 stacks or refresh FS with 100% crit?
    Same applies with imho minor impact to Breath of Hydra and Chaye trinket.

    This might depend more or less on "real" skill rather than somehow bad/good luck with LS procs.

    If you can actually multidot, the whole shock management topic rises to a different level of course.

  16. #16
    Dreadlord Srg56's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grubjuice View Post
    It seems like the shared cooldown between ES and FS, while perhaps serving to separate the true cooldown masters from everyone else, doesn't really serve any useful purpose, and is left over from earlier iterations of the game when perhaps it made sense.

    I feel like Flame Shock should have no cooldown and VERY VERY tiny direct damage, just like Glyphed Riptide (or 'Water Shock', as it ought to be called), where as Earth Shock can retain it's short cooldown.

    Perhaps someone can explain why the two spells sharing a cooldown is useful or important?
    It's a vanilla design. It was obviously intended to prevent shamans from being able to do damage, slow and interrupt at the same time. Combat back then was much slower and spells weren't used off cooldown like today in pvp.
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  17. #17
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xentres View Post
    @Endus

    I agree with the overall idea behind your post, but as I already stated, I am not quite sure about the impact of the current shock management on actual dps.

    As I said, for shock management, only the last 6 remaining seconds of FS are important in my opinion. During the whole other time, you can use your shock CD for whatever you want. If there is no point in multidotting during a fight, shock management is not important for the rest of the fight because you simply use your ES with 7 stacks and FS is simply ticking on the target until it hits those "important" 6 remaining seconds.
    For some of the duration, sure, but there's a wider window than you think; determining whether you can fit in another ES or not every 30s without hosing FS is a constant recurring factor. If you could have, and don't; you lose DPS. If you couldn't, and do; you lose DPS. It rewards making that proper choice, every time.

    And again; that's a really easy choice, when you ignore everything else. Like tossing a ball up, and catching it; easy. The complication part comes from juggling 6-7 balls at once. That isn't easy, though any single ball absolutely is.

    It isn't about how straightforward it is; it's about having to devote part of your brain to tracking and managing that relatively straightforward choice, along with all the other straightforward choices you have. No other DPS spec is any different; they are all working priority/rotation systems where they have really simple choices, they're just having to manage 3-6 different things at once to maximize performance.

  18. #18
    The Patient Trollfat's Avatar
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    A druid moonfire spammed me to death yesterday. I would have loved to earth shock spam him back.

    Imo, casting a shock spell should put the other two on cd, but not the one you casted. That would be good
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  19. #19
    I don't mind that flame shock and earth shock share a cd, but flame shock and frost shock do and that is lame. lol. Understandable for PvP, but not PvE.

  20. #20
    Mentioning the shocks cd management as the "hard" part of the elemental shaman rotation shows how easy is the rotation. Shock shared cd belongs to another era and must be removed. We need some serious mecchanics in order to make elemental rotation less easy and boring. IMO.

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