1. #1
    Field Marshal Madcloud's Avatar
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    Is this the real problem with LFG systems?

    I know, another thread bashing on the LFG/LFR systems amirite? No, please hear me out... I do not really have a problem personally with any of these systems. But I have noticed most of the community has been in an uproar about somethings like "i can go afk and get gear" or "i can take most dmg/do least dmg and still be rewarded". I think there is a problem a lot of people overlook, and here it is:


    The Vote to Kick System.
    That's right, I believe fault lies within this system. You see, if someone is underpreforming in a LFG/LFR group... No one has the intention to try and help them or give them advice or teach them. You simply initiate the vote to kick them and be done with it. Is this really the way the game should be? I understand that there are AFK players that need to be kicked sometime, ever thought about implementing a "Flag as AFK" system similar to PvP? I just feel like maybe, LFG/LFR would be a slightly better place to be if we took the time to help under-preforming players in there. We have all been there! I will give you some scenarios:


    Example:
    A person new to tanking, not necessarily the game, queue's up for a section of ToT LFR. He is obviously nervous about going in because he has never tanked it before.
    He enter's the instance by saying "Hey guys, this is my first time tanking this fight, can you please give me some tips?"
    Immediate responses look something like "Omfg noobtank lets votekick him" "Why would you queue up if you don't know what to do?" "Let's kick him and get someone who knows the fight"
    He gets kicked and :
    A. Has not learned anything about the fight from a tank perspective.
    B. Feels like it is a waste of time to queue up as a tank because he will just get kicked for asking a simple question.
    C. The game has lost a potential tank to queue for LFG/LFR.

    Now, maybe not every LFR will be like this. But I'm willing to bet that more than 50% of them would turn out like this. Is it so wrong that this guy is asking for advice? Should he really deserve a kick because he didn't look up things before hand? IMO, no he does not deserve a kick for that. Some people don't know about third-party sites with guides and PoVs, it isn't their fault. What makes everyone so special that they have to treat this guy like crap, and not be helpful? Because they know the fight? Stupid reason if you ask me. Scenarios like this are the reason the Vote to Kick system needs to be changed. It promotes toxic behavior and does not help people new to fights or raiding learn, it simply gives the people who know everything the ability to get rid of them easily, while mocking them. Is that how the game is supposed to be?


    There needs to be a new way of kicking implemented. I believe the biggest problem with LFG/LFR is the Vote to Kick system. Why? Because it is abused. If a particular group thinks someone is not doing good enough, they don't try to help them, they just vote to kick them. Shouldn't the people who have been playing WoW for a long time be the teachers? Shouldn't we try to help people to make the game a better place for everyone? But why do that when its so much easier just to kick them? I dunno man, maybe I am crazy and maybe I am too nice for my own good. It's pretty clear that the Vote to Kick system promotes toxic behavior and unhealthy gameplay habits, and unfortunately I don't have a solution.


    I am not trying to start shit on this thread. I am not trying to talk negatively or be "the bad guy". I use LFG/LFR regularly, and when I come across someone who needs help, I help them. It's simple. And after thinking about ways to make LFG/LFR a better place to be, I came to this conclusion. Make it so if you are AFK in a LFR for more than 5 minutes, you are kicked. If you are going to be doing one, there is no reason you should be going AFK other than an emergency, in which case you shouldn't be upset that you got kicked. If you think that is harsh... think about it, why would you enter a raid with 24 other people and make them wait? I don't really have a solution to getting rid of people who go in and just auto attack stuff, or who aren't being helpful. But for people who try, and just are doing things a tad bit wrong, they don't deserve to be kicked.

    This is just my opinion, and I don't know how to solve everything. But I do think some kind of change needs to be made to this system. Too many times have I seen toxic behavior spawn from it. The game is supposed to be fun for everyone, not just people who already know what they are doing. After all, I'm sure no one ever loaded up WoW for the first time and knew everything there is to know. People should not be punished for asking questions or not knowing the correct way to do things. I hope some of you understand where I am coming from, and don't view this as a "I'm QQing" thread. Just trying to make the game a better place. Thank you for listening.

  2. #2
    The Insane det's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Madcloud View Post
    But I have noticed most of the community has been in an uproar about somethings like "i can go afk and get gear" or "i can take most dmg/do least dmg and still be rewarded".
    Not to belittle your efforts, but people raging on a forum are not "most of the community". Not even if 2000 posts are in a thread of which not even all posters are in agreement. Not even if we have 20 or 100 LFR threads, because it is the same people popping in and the same people throwing posts and answers back and forth.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    One cause is a cognitive bias called projection bias. Essentially living inside your own head your entire life makes it exceedingly difficult to understand how others do not also live your same life, think your same thoughts, and hold your same beliefs. In many cases it's quite frustrating to try to empathize and understand why you yourself may not be the center of the universe, which generally results in one 'acting out' in various ways.
    So, in short: the internet.

  3. #3
    Field Marshal Madcloud's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    Not to belittle your efforts, but people raging on a forum are not "most of the community". Not even if 2000 posts are in a thread of which not even all posters are in agreement. Not even if we have 20 or 100 LFR threads, because it is the same people popping in and the same people throwing posts and answers back and forth.
    I hear you, and I am not judging this based off just forum posts. Think about the way Vote to Kick works, and tell me it doesn't promote bad player behavior? Sure, it has its uses, but I personally have seen it abused more times than I have seen it used for the proper reasons. Again, it's just an opinion, I don't expect people to share it with me. But I rarely see people pointing this out as a problem, and I thought it would be an interesting discussion to bring up here.

  4. #4
    The problem is two fold:

    First, some people aren't underperforming because they don't know how to play well, they're underperfoming because the can /follow and autoattack, the boss still dies usually and they have just as good a chance at loot as if they tried their best. I don't understand these people - if I don't want to play I don't play - but they can do this.

    Second, some percentage of people will flame you back for trying to help regardless of how civil you are. Even if that's only 20% it's still offputting and you usually will just stop trying to help rather than get chewed out.

    Unless Blizzard does something to affect the AFkers (lower/no chance at loot below some threshold, etc) you'll never get rid of those people. I don't even votekick them anymore because you have to wait for replacements and the replacements might be just as bad. Since they aren't affecting my chances at loot, I just heal or DPS well and get LFR over with.

  5. #5
    Well, you have a point, but... Tanks probably get the worst end of the stick here. LFR isn't aimed at players who watch videos and read strats. But If you're going to tank a LFR, it's really important to know what you're suppose to do. The healers can probably get away with not really knowing. DPS obviously can get away wtih not really knowing. But you go in to Tank Lei Shen and not know what to do, it's going to be rough.

    So at least for tanks in most LFRs, it's better for them to go in as DPS, see what it suppose to happen, then go back later and tank it.

    More on Topic, I don't believe the Vote kick is overly abused from what I've expereinced. If anything, people are too unwilling to vote kick people and thus bad apples are allowed to stay bad and that continues to ruin the experince for a lot of people. If going into LFR with plans of being an asshat meant you had a 99% chance of getting kicked, I think we'd see fewer asshats. If queing as a healer so you can skip to the front of the line and DPS was met with a 99% kick rate, we'd see a lot less of that. If AFKing during the fights was met with a 99% kick rate on the last boss, I think you'd see a lot less AFKing.

    But I do agree, very few groups are going to want to work with a new tank. LFR is full of the most busiest people in the world. How often do we enter and have to wave another 2-3 mins for a 2nd tank or healers and the same group of monkeys are always there going "Just pull! GOGOGO!, Hurry I don't have much time!" Too many extrememly busy important people in LFR, they'd rather run the risk of a wipe than wait that extra 2-3 mins.

    The real problem with the LFG\LFR system is the problem with almost any social system. The people!

  6. #6
    I personally haven't seen that in LFR. Kicks have happened for legitimate reasons. Walking into an LFR thinking you can do anything with no knowledge of the fights, no gems or any enchantments (especially as a tank), or any intention of communicating with your group or counterparts in the group which then leads to wipes are grounds to kick someone. That and people AFKing through the fights are the reasons I see kicks happening.

  7. #7
    The real problem? A lot more high level than the vote kicking system.

  8. #8
    Maybe there is other question you should ask-how hard is too watch 1 video and just get basics before you step in LFR?Since queues for tanks are generally shorter then healer or dps i can see why some ppl can initiate kicks for ppl wasting their time. I play as tank but i dont queue as one since i have older pc and i dont like my FPS in 25s and i belive i would slower the grp as tank or waste their time with possible late reaction-if i can do that to not waste time for 24 ppl why cant other ppl do same and put some effort to not waste other ppl or my time as well.

  9. #9
    Field Marshal Madcloud's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radoznali View Post
    Maybe there is other question you should ask-how hard is too watch 1 video and just get basics before you step in LFR?Since queues for tanks are generally shorter then healer or dps i can see why some ppl can initiate kicks for ppl wasting their time. I play as tank but i dont queue as one since i have older pc and i dont like my FPS in 25s and i belive i would slower the grp as tank or waste their time with possible late reaction-if i can do that to not waste time for 24 ppl why cant other ppl do same and put some effort to not waste other ppl or my time as well.
    The problem is, WoW does not direct you to third party videos or anything outside of itself, there is no way for a new player to KNOW to go look at a video. It's easy to blame them for not watching, I guess it's hard to grasp the concept that people don't just know to go watch a video. They can read the dungeon journal, but reading/seeing/experiencing are all different things. You can read the dungeon journal and understand the abilities, but not know what they look like. You can watch a video to see them, but that won't help you experiencing them. they are all different. Also, I didn't realize LFR had become a place to just "go in get gear and get out". Does it really take a long time to tell a tank "Pull him over here, swap at X amount of stacks, pickup adds"? Sure, it's not hard to watch the video, but knowing to go watch it is not something WoW teaches you. Voting to kick someone because they didn't watch the video is ABSURD because WoW does not tell you "Before you queue for LFR, make sure you go look up the fatboss/vox video for the fight!". If there was something in game that told people about third party sites... I would 100% agree that kicking someone for not knowing the fight is a valid reason for a kick. Unfortunately, that is not the case, and you cannot expect every single WoW player to know about these sites.
    Last edited by Madcloud; 2013-06-27 at 05:51 PM.

  10. #10
    Grunt MrTyko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Madcloud View Post
    Should he really deserve a kick because he didn't look up things before hand? IMO, no he does not deserve a kick for that. Some people don't know about third-party sites with guides and PoVs, it isn't their fault.
    A point of contention; there's the Dungeon Journal, which has been in the game since Cataclysm. The default is Shift-J, I think. Looking at that would help anyone who has never even been inside the instance at least know what to expect. World of Warcraft has long since left the shores of being a game where you can jump into anything without much foreknowledge, and get along fairly well. Raids are at the very top of this list. I can't pretend to know what it's like to play a game, and not ask if I should know something before I try something. I don't know if raiding for as long as I have has taught that to me, or it's just part of my nature. "Knowing is half the battle!" etc.

    I'm willing to bet that if we could more clearly get across the message that people jumping into LFR should read the DJ before they went in to at least have a notion of their responsibilities beforehand, it would improve a great many things. This is the unavoidable reality of these fights. Patchwerk-style fights don't really exist anymore, and it's why I like Durumu so much. The maze is unforgiving. Do it right, or you lose, and the best part, or maybe the worst, is that the fight can be won even with 3/4 of the raid dead. The failures of the people that died don't keep the people that knew what they were doing, and survived because of it, from getting their loot. However, it also still lets those that failed get their bag of gold, and teaches them nothing.

    Ultimately, I have to agree with the point that not nearly enough of the people that deserve Kicks are getting them. They're not being taught that their behavior is undesirable, and that if it continues, it results in being removed from the group. With enough patience, you can teach animals this sort of thing. Bad behavior, bad reaction. Unfortunately, no one seems to care enough in LFR. No one is there to help, only to get their loot, and go about their day.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Radoznali View Post
    Maybe there is other question you should ask-how hard is too watch 1 video and just get basics before you step in LFR?Since queues for tanks are generally shorter then healer or dps i can see why some ppl can initiate kicks for ppl wasting their time. I play as tank but i dont queue as one since i have older pc and i dont like my FPS in 25s and i belive i would slower the grp as tank or waste their time with possible late reaction-if i can do that to not waste time for 24 ppl why cant other ppl do same and put some effort to not waste other ppl or my time as well.

    Watching videos and reading strats does not mean you "understand" the fight at all. It means you watched a video and read a guide, that's all.


    Sure a few people can just watch someone and pick up what to do; most people need to actually see the mechanics in motion before it all clicks. Sure you might wipe, but on the plus side you now have another tank who knows what to do. I agree that its the community that is the problem here, not the LFD or RF tool; if people spent half as much effort into constructively helping people (omfg u nub lrn 2 strat HAS NEVER BEEN NOR WILL EVER BE CONSIDERED CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM) as they do bawling them out the community would be better for it.

    However now the game seems to be populated with impatient twats who demand instant gratification and that everyone know the game inside and out (despite their knowledge level not being half as what they're demanding others be; they're just too lazy to be bothered to help others).

  12. #12
    This is really your experience? Overall imo vote to kick happens 80% for afk'ers, 10% for idiots flaming/swearing too much, and 10% rest.

    Awesome signature/avatar by Visenna!

  13. #13
    No one kicks bad players unless they're making it impossible to complete the instance (which is really griefing and not under performance; you have to try in order to hold a group back in any LFG situation). It's really easy to carry bads.

    I also have a hard time believing the example you gave. I've never once seen that happen. On the contrary, I have seen people ask for help and get it without issue many times.

    Your other point, that it's not an individual's responsibility to be prepared and instead the group's responsibility to educate, is just wrong, and especially so as a tank. Tanking is a special role. There are 2 of them in LFR, compared to 6 healers and 17 DPS. Tanks need to stay alive and handle mechanics properly for the group to succeed. All the DPS and most the healers can die in LFR and the group can still be successful in most cases. If the tank dies, the group usually loses pretty quickly. I'm not saying DPS and healers shouldn't prepare and tanks should, just that an unprepared tank is a greater risk to the group.

    Also, it's extremely easy to learn an LFR fight. Usually it can be summed up in one sentence. For tanks, it's usually "taunt at x stacks" or "drag boss to y place" or "pop a cd for z ability". For DPS, it's "don't stand in fire" or "swap to adds". For healers, it's always "heal everything and don't stand in anything".

  14. #14
    Herald of the Titans Darkfriend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Madcloud View Post
    The problem is, WoW does not direct you to third party videos or anything outside of itself, there is no way for a new player to KNOW to go look at a video. It's easy to blame them for not watching, I guess it's hard to grasp the concept that people don't just know to go watch a video. They can read the dungeon journal, but reading/seeing/experiencing are all different things. You can read the dungeon journal and understand the abilities, but not know what they look like. You can watch a video to see them, but that won't help you experiencing them. they are all different. Also, I didn't realize LFR had become a place to just "go in get gear and get out". Does it really take a long time to tell a tank "Pull him over here, swap at X amount of stacks, pickup adds"? Sure, it's not hard to watch the video, but knowing to go watch it is not something WoW teaches you. Voting to kick someone because they didn't watch the video is ABSURD because WoW does not tell you "Before you queue for LFR, make sure you go look up the fatboss/vox video for the fight!". If there was something in game that told people about third party sites... I would 100% agree that kicking someone for not knowing the fight is a valid reason for a kick. Unfortunately, that is not the case, and you cannot expect every single WoW player to know about these sites.
    I don't want to play with bads. If bads are too lazy to google a fight, and it causes 24 other people to waste their time, I will try and get them kicked. I am not interested in teaching bads in LFR how to play. I'd rather spend my time helping warriors or learning from other DKs how to play mine better.

    When I want to help others I do. When I want to teach I do. I have no interest wasting time with the worst players in the game trying to teach them something they are too dumb, lazy, or bad to learn even the basics of a fight.

    Every aspect of raiding requires SOME measure of work from the player. Heroic requires the most, between min/maxing, BiS gearing between raid tiers, research, testing, consumables, strats, etc. Even normal requires some work. LFR requires the least, but you still need to be geared somewhat, and know what is going on.

    If you are unprepared, the fault is on YOU. And don't expect to be kept or taught on the fly. It isn't other people's fault YOU are not prepared.

  15. #15
    Can we just nuke all threads about this? Old topic old...get over it.

  16. #16
    Legendary! Sorrior's Avatar
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    I for one think we need a sort of praise system.

    Now what we can do is say make it so if someone is helpful/polite or just pleasant or fun to play with we can sort of "praise" them.

    Now the limits I would place are this.

    1 Those you que with CANNOT praise you no can those on your friends list or same guild.

    2. It cannot be given until say after a boss has bern beaten prefferably the last boss.

    3. Maybe make it an option linked to chat that way even if they leave we can right click and "praise" them.

    now I am fairly certain I have covered most if not all likely forms of abuse from getting friends/guildies to vote for you to say soneone going "I won't vote till I get all of you to "praise" me.

    Now FOR this praise lets say it acts as a sort of currency. There can be a "praise" vendor. From him you can buy valor OFF the weekly cap as well as Justice or gold and maybe some cosmetic items like old tier sets and maybe even fun patterns. Oh and a lets say "charm of absolute luck" that GURANTEES a 100% chance for a drop.

    in short your game will not be broken by it but it WILL be made easier. Now "praise" can ONLY be gained via randoms and ONLY from those you don't have an affiliation with...At least one the servers can identify...

    Now I suggest this route because it seems the classic punishment one is NOT working so I say instead give people a reason to say give the tank advice(I have been where the OP describes and if the others work with and help me I do ALOT better and even improve) or even just be nice and friendly.

    Maybe vary the amount of "praise" for what a persons being "praised" for such as helpful and offering class/role/fight advice being top to just being pleasant and social giving a small amount.

    In short reward players for good behavior instead of just punishing for bad.

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