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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Sorrior View Post
    I saw a warrior 2h tanking and TBH we went fast he never died not even close....No oen bicthed or moaned was awesome..So yeah at least in low level 5 mans it CAN work and be badass.
    Saying you tanked [low level rift dungeon] with [squishy rift class] is like saying you tanked [low level wow dungeon] with [squishy wow class]. The effectiveness of a squishy tank is going to diminish quickly with level and become progressively more painful on the healer. A dead tank is probably one of the least badass things around.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Stormcall View Post
    Taunt isn't a 0 point spec, technically. To get the Taunt you have to be in Defensive/Recovery Posture, which is actually a 4 point spec. Not hard, but still, why is warlord the only "splash" soul with a taunt...and why don't other tank souls have their taunts lower in the tree? Plus General's Orders has a taunt too, and if you've spent 44 in Warlord...that's a primary soul not a splash soul.
    Sergent's Order is 0 point. The taunt part is activated on stance you are in. But the pull-in is still a 0 point ability, with recovery being very accessible. And one of the most reliable solo healing buffs, btw. Seems to be working as intended for a solo defensive/offensive soul.

    These abilities are just giving a different set of tools to mix & match. It's really just that simple.

    In the case of Warlord, it has some defensive and offensive skills. It's not a tanking soul, however.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    In the case of Warlord, it has some defensive and offensive skills. It's not a tanking soul, however.
    Also, presence of a taunt doesn't indicate that a spec of a class should be tanking. As you already outlined, taunting has benefits beyond tanking, not the least of which is temporary aggro displacement for utility purposes. While these abilities clearly don't have a optimal and efficient use in challenging content, they normally have some context in open world scenarios.

    Hunters in WoW have a taunt, which is used to peel and ping pong mobs with other players. I actually 2 manned a rather significant elite mob with a warlock. We alternated pet taunts and our own aggro generating/dropping abilities to make sure the mob pretty much never hit anything and spent the whole time chasing after us.

    None of this means that we should queue up with our pets and tank dungeons.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    Also, presence of a taunt doesn't indicate that a spec of a class should be tanking. As you already outlined, taunting has benefits beyond tanking, not the least of which is temporary aggro displacement for utility purposes. While these abilities clearly don't have a optimal and efficient use in challenging content, they normally have some context in open world scenarios.

    Hunters in WoW have a taunt, which is used to peel and ping pong mobs with other players. I actually 2 manned a rather significant elite mob with a warlock. We alternated pet taunts and our own aggro generating/dropping abilities to make sure the mob pretty much never hit anything and spent the whole time chasing after us.

    None of this means that we should queue up with our pets and tank dungeons.
    I was fond of a Korean MMO which had class mixing much like Rift in that one could combine any 3 classes. One of which was an Archer/Sniper class [no pet] that also had a long range taunt fairly low in skill point investment.

    It served the same ends as Orders in Rift too. It gave you a long range tool that could be used to force an enemy on you or move them out of position. When the Sniper class was combined with say the melee berserker class [in Rift that would be Champion, approx] or the knight class [rift's void knight]- the utility was almost exactly like Warlord's Orders in Rift.

    The sniper/archer class wasn't a tanking class either. It just had a few utility moves such as a taunt, snare, silence, etc. If you did want the full suite of tanking options, there was 2 other classes specifically that emphasized those aspects in total. Rift's classes work somewhat differently, but the idea of utility in a class not built specifically for the task of tanking seems fine to me.

    The other thing to note is Warlords have overlapping surges at high level and their powerful reactive skills. General's Order can still be useful to a 44 or 61 point Warlord as an offensive tool too. 44 WL still allows for some varied builds that are not "tanks".

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Decklan View Post
    Saying you tanked [low level rift dungeon] with [squishy rift class] is like saying you tanked [low level wow dungeon] with [squishy wow class]. The effectiveness of a squishy tank is going to diminish quickly with level and become progressively more painful on the healer. A dead tank is probably one of the least badass things around.
    Listen even the OP said he wasn't gonna go all end game raider with this spec it's just for kicks so let him have fun..Jeez you remind me of a guy in LFR jumping down my throat for trying a mastery build on my BrM...Lighten up.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sorrior View Post
    Listen even the OP said he wasn't gonna go all end game raider with this spec it's just for kicks so let him have fun..Jeez you remind me of a guy in LFR jumping down my throat for trying a mastery build on my BrM...Lighten up.
    Sorry, but using a group finder to automatically place you into a 'society' means you either operate by the accepted rules or you are shunned. Like it or not, this is how society works. If you want to have fun that doesn't coincide with the average public's view, you do so in private. In this situation, wanting to play a suboptimal spec in an interesting way because you can and it is fun would be best suited for a premade group of friends that know you.

    Quit demonizing people who like to adhere to rules the game establishes. Not everyone should be forced to go on some crap spec's joyride just because someone felt like queuing with it.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    Sorry, but using a group finder to automatically place you into a 'society' means you either operate by the accepted rules or you are shunned. Like it or not, this is how society works. If you want to have fun that doesn't coincide with the average public's view, you do so in private. In this situation, wanting to play a suboptimal spec in an interesting way because you can and it is fun would be best suited for a premade group of friends that know you.

    Quit demonizing people who like to adhere to rules the game establishes. Not everyone should be forced to go on some crap spec's joyride just because someone felt like queuing with it.
    Uh huh....It's a GAME there are many ways to play and in MMOs you get people doing this. Lets face it at lower levels this can be a bloody boon if the healer can keep up. Hell guy did better then our former real tank. No it's not always a hindrance sometimes it's useful...Plus it's a fun sight to see when done right.

    also for future ref the monk thing I mentioned was me testing survivability. My guild had some issues and I was working on new builds to try and improve myself for when we started raiding.

    And yeah you're in a community but a community isn't always right.

    TBH I'd probably rather play with the OP even if we wiped alot then you because we'd be able to have fun. Until you get into hardcore progression raiding it's not all serious business you can fool around have fun and be laid back.

    As I see it if the OP can indeed tank like that even simple 5 mans I say let him do it...And people wonder why mmo communities are starting to suck...Bloody obsession with perfection even in easy content. What happened to a sense of fun and experimentation...

    oh and not everyone even plays for end game some like the dimensions, some to socialize, some to be with RL buddies others enjoy raiding and maybe some just like to putz around with strange build.

    YES we're a community but ya know what that also means some people will go outside the box to have a little fun or maybe even spice up easy stuff.

    my advice to you is to not be so serious and have some fun while you can..I mean again the op OUTRIGHT said he was just doing it for fun.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Sorrior View Post
    Uh huh....It's a GAME there are many ways to play and in MMOs you get people doing this. Lets face it at lower levels this can be a bloody boon if the healer can keep up. Hell guy did better then our former real tank. No it's not always a hindrance sometimes it's useful...Plus it's a fun sight to see when done right.

    also for future ref the monk thing I mentioned was me testing survivability. My guild had some issues and I was working on new builds to try and improve myself for when we started raiding.

    And yeah you're in a community but a community isn't always right.

    TBH I'd probably rather play with the OP even if we wiped alot then you because we'd be able to have fun. Until you get into hardcore progression raiding it's not all serious business you can fool around have fun and be laid back.

    As I see it if the OP can indeed tank like that even simple 5 mans I say let him do it...And people wonder why mmo communities are starting to suck...Bloody obsession with perfection even in easy content. What happened to a sense of fun and experimentation...

    oh and not everyone even plays for end game some like the dimensions, some to socialize, some to be with RL buddies others enjoy raiding and maybe some just like to putz around with strange build.

    YES we're a community but ya know what that also means some people will go outside the box to have a little fun or maybe even spice up easy stuff.

    my advice to you is to not be so serious and have some fun while you can..I mean again the op OUTRIGHT said he was just doing it for fun.
    You make many valid points. He should definitely go and enjoy the game the way he wants to, without forcing at least 4 others to play in a way they don't want to.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Vespian View Post
    You make many valid points. He should definitely go and enjoy the game the way he wants to, without forcing at least 4 others to play in a way they don't want to.
    Yeah, pretty much this. I have no problems with people trying out new things in groups, as long as they're functional. But if you (royal you) want to try out your awesome Harbinger healing build and you're wiping us constantly, that's when we kick you from the group. You're now impacting our ability to have fun. Play with it with your friends or by yourself all you want, but remember that when you're grouped with strangers, that you can be negatively impacting their ability to enjoy themselves as well.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vespian View Post
    You make many valid points. He should definitely go and enjoy the game the way he wants to, without forcing at least 4 others to play in a way they don't want to.
    And i'm just saying at LOW LEVELS itca n even make instances faster/easier..Thats' all i was saying to begin with..

    Hell i once got to to "Just leave group already so we can geta real tank" while on my monk.. I had JUST zoned in the previous tank had left before pulling anything...We then went on to clear it..Was Shado Pan Monastary...Thing is that healer left because 3/5 of the group were NEW PLAYERS who had NEVER been there... I stayed i helped them and yes wiped..Some couldn't get the fight other had crap dps...

    Eventually after he left we downed em..hell he even bitched about how we had to kill all the adds before the last boss..

    Now i bring up this story to point out that you never know what someone can do just from looks before even letting them try..Also to show that if all you care about is performance from the get go then new players will suffer as well..I was thanked for my time and i helped several new players on their first toons learn the instance and some basic fight mechanics.

    The OP is looking to have some fun in easy content and if he CAN do it then i say let him..However if he starts mass dying/wiping THEN it's bad. A few LESS minutes for novelty isn;t so bad..Remember he will be doing more then normal DPS for a tank o it actually will make it faster if he does this right..I have see it done before.

    It really is a win win just that some people are so stuck in the ONE way to play mentality that it bites em in the arse.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-27 at 10:13 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by edgecrusher View Post
    Yeah, pretty much this. I have no problems with people trying out new things in groups, as long as they're functional. But if you (royal you) want to try out your awesome Harbinger healing build and you're wiping us constantly, that's when we kick you from the group. You're now impacting our ability to have fun. Play with it with your friends or by yourself all you want, but remember that when you're grouped with strangers, that you can be negatively impacting their ability to enjoy themselves as well.
    I agree but i HAVE seen a 2h warrior tank and it CAN work very well..This WAS at low level but even the OP admits he never planned to try and do this in hard content...

    I think that might be the issue is we're talking low level/easy content vs high level/hard content.

    Also don;t forget that sometimes trying something new is also part of learning the ins and outs of your class..You can complain now when someone is doing that or later when new players leave the game or never learn they're roles because no one even bothers to help them and instead says "stop wasting our time"..Again i have seen it..

    We need to HELP each other out not just bash or diss others and give guys like the OP a chance instead of insta kicking...

    I really think this is related to why MMO communities have started to suck..Perfection is expected at ALL levels from ALL players in ALL roles new OR old...ALOT of people have forgotten how to have fun or go "Meh we wiped anyone need to know the fight" instead accusations kick in or hatred and bitterness...

    I actually LOVE harder content being normal BECAUSE it helps force even the supposedly best players to have to basically work with others...I think i miss community and helpfulness and this OP is NOT hurting anyone and even if i recall right admits that he will go sword and board if he dies too much...Again this is really no skin off anyone's back except for perfectionists and elitists.
    Last edited by Sorrior; 2013-06-27 at 10:13 PM.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sorrior View Post
    I really think this is related to why MMO communities have started to suck..Perfection is expected at ALL levels from ALL players in ALL roles new OR old...ALOT of people have forgotten how to have fun
    This is the most self centered thinking ever. I'm trying to be nice to you, but you are worse than the problem the OP mentions. You do not define what is acceptable fun for anyone. Most people like playing by the game's rules because it is a better experience for them. They have certain times they can play, I'd expect that they want to play it the way they want (and the game reinforces) without having to deal with egotistical people forcing their fun on random strangers because it is convenient.

    "God what losers...you want to vote kick me because I queued for tanking as a hunter? I have a turtle pet and he'll tank better than any tank evarr..worthless noobs just don't know how to have fun"

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    This is the most self centered thinking ever. I'm trying to be nice to you, but you are worse than the problem the OP mentions. You do not define what is acceptable fun for anyone. Most people like playing by the game's rules because it is a better experience for them. They have certain times they can play, I'd expect that they want to play it the way they want (and the game reinforces) without having to deal with egotistical people forcing their fun on random strangers because it is convenient.

    "God what losers...you want to vote kick me because I queued for tanking as a hunter? I have a turtle pet and he'll tank better than any tank evarr..worthless noobs just don't know how to have fun"
    No i am saying that what is fun for you is not for others. And yes i even addressed what you're saying.

    I am merely pointing out that trying new things isn't bad and if it CAN be done(which in this case the OP desires CAN be done) then yes your shouldn;t bitch..Oh and by CAN i mean is feasible to fulfill your chosen role in that way.

    Also i actually won't even que as a tank in WoW when say specc'd frost or other things. If i'm going to tank i;m going to do it right You will NEVER see my warrior/pally tanking even RFC without a shield and more often then not i'll be in my Might heirlooms with my tank cloak on.

    But not everyone finds that idea/enjoyable as such we kinda have to accept it...Also again for what the Op asks/describes i HAVE seen it and i HAVE seen it work...His idea is incredibly viable...Also pretty sure the worst case of a few extra minutes isn't so bad.

    If anything i'd say you're way of only one way is more selfish. You're basically saying that if someone has both the ability skill and in game ability to do something then they shouldn't be allowed to do it especially when it has no negative impact on others...Yeah that's kinda closed minded and pushing your take on others even more then me.

    And actuallly i HAVE seen some warlocks/hunters that tank better then the tanks...But that is NOT what i'm saying as well... While not outright i was saying that of course limits exist like things that will ensure a failure..Which ironically in modern wow that will not...But they do..However the OP example is no such case. At high er levels and end game sure it's dumb and hurts others but from what i can tell he was never talking about high level content.

    In short just let the guy have his fun and don;t go screaming about how his idea won't work because it WILL and HAS..And even makes runs go faster.

    My beef really is with how people get so stuck in the one way to play mentality.

  13. #33
    Fun for 4 people > fun for 1 person. Like Kitty said, if you want to 2-hand tank, get a group of friends/guildies to do it with. They are more than likely willing to try out your idea of fun, instead of forcing it on 4 others who have an expectation of what's gonna show up when they zone in to a dungeon. It's the same as showing up as dps with a 1h + shield, or with your tank pet out, because you prefer it's look over the others.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Pachycrocuta View Post
    Fun for 4 people > fun for 1 person. Like Kitty said, if you want to 2-hand tank, get a group of friends/guildies to do it with. They are more than likely willing to try out your idea of fun, instead of forcing it on 4 others who have an expectation of what's gonna show up when they zone in to a dungeon. It's the same as showing up as dps with a 1h + shield, or with your tank pet out, because you prefer it's look over the others.
    If it's specifically hindering the group then yes it's a problem.

    However in the context of the OP and his/her experiences of facerolling threw dungeons with it and having no plans to use it progressively then the people in his party's bitching at him are bitching for no reason.

    But the same thing can be said about "proper" specs being played horribly.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pachycrocuta View Post
    Fun for 4 people > fun for 1 person. Like Kitty said, if you want to 2-hand tank, get a group of friends/guildies to do it with. They are more than likely willing to try out your idea of fun, instead of forcing it on 4 others who have an expectation of what's gonna show up when they zone in to a dungeon. It's the same as showing up as dps with a 1h + shield, or with your tank pet out, because you prefer it's look over the others.
    And i'm saying that isn't A always viable and B it DOES work....Seriously....I also believe that i at least implied that should it NOT work then yes boot him if he refuses to do things in a way that will but gods forbid you even let a man try something...

    TBH i cannot even comprehend the way you guys are thinking right now..Basically if nobody dies and the healer can keep up while he keeps threat then WHAT IS THE PROBLEM!

    Just assuming he can't do it is REALLY damn dumb and closed minded IMO...And how is his doing something that again has NO real impact on everyone else as in they all live and make it through a bad thing..Hell when i saw someone do it i wanted to try it out and even the party was alot off un we talked and chatted and were laughing....ALL from different servers as well.

    So no his doing this should NOT affect another persons fun but WILL permit him to. It really is win win. But i also see alot of you guys are assuming it can't work as well.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-28 at 01:30 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by zito View Post
    If it's specifically hindering the group then yes it's a problem.

    However in the context of the OP and his/her experiences of facerolling threw dungeons with it and having no plans to use it progressively then the people in his party's bitching at him are bitching for no reason.

    But the same thing can be said about "proper" specs being played horribly.
    EXACTLY in fact i wonder if the OP might not even be the badass tank i had recently with a 2h.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sorrior View Post
    No i am saying that what is fun for you is not for others.
    No...no you are not saying that. Go back and look at what I quoted. You specifically said people forgot how to have fun because they don't play like you. Your statements are the opposite of open minded. You even closed this specific post off by stating what people should find fun.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sorrior View Post
    My beef really is with how people get so stuck in the one way to play mentality.
    Maybe that one way is their only way to have fun. Not your place to decide otherwise. A lot of people who play MMOs are min maxers and perfectionist. They don't call it elitist jerks for no reason. People like knowing the math behind how to be optimal and being told how to get there. Then they do it. This is fun for a large portion of people.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    No...no you are not saying that. Go back and look at what I quoted. You specifically said people forgot how to have fun because they don't play like you. Your statements are the opposite of open minded. You even closed this specific post off by stating what people should find fun.

    Maybe that one way is their only way to have fun. Not your place to decide otherwise. A lot of people who play MMOs are min maxers and perfectionist. They don't call it elitist jerks for no reason. People like knowing the math behind how to be optimal and being told how to get there. Then they do it. This is fun for a large portion of people.

    Yes and others for socializing and look above.

    And just because you can't tell that's what I was saying does not mean that is my intent.

    And now if the OP were talking about doing this in say endgame or progression or even semi serious content sure complain as long as it is a true hindrance.

    but these guys just booted him right off and that's just silly.

    again MANY types of people play mmos not just the min/maxers.
    Last edited by Sorrior; 2013-06-28 at 01:50 AM.

  18. #38
    To be honest anyone who judges a player based on their spec/kit rather than their performance needs to stick to single player games. Because its always seemed to me that the ones who think like that are the ones who generally suck and simply cant cut it with a less than flavour of the month build.

    Myself I play what I find fun, and usually do better than a lot of the ones who play flavour specs and dont enjoy them.

    But food for thought would be this(the last time I raided truely seriously was in TBC): During TBC for a large part of it Arcane Mage's were literally the undisputed masters, so everyone who played a Mage was almost forced to spec Arcane once past a certain point or they would be steamrolled by anyone that did)

    So yeah me and a couple of my guildies took my very new level 70 Ele Shammy into Heroic Mechanar as soon as I had it unlocked, cant remember what I was after to be honest was a long time ago. it was me, and a tank and healer from my guild and 2 pug players. One of them being a seriously good Arcane Mage, and a Rogue. The Mage has near 50% more damage than the Rogue who was moderately well geared. Me? I steamrolled him and beat him by about 20%.

    Moral of the story? dont judge because they might well be able to pull off what you could not. (The Mage in question ended up joining my Raid Group cause he was impressed with how it worked out and couldnt believe he got creamed by a guy in greens/blues when he was in T4. Granted he royally shafted me once we were both in T5 but then I just switched to my Lock.)


    Most players are bad. Seriously bad. Really really seriously bad... So a good player can usually out perform them even with crap tbh. A seriously good player who has looked up how to play a class and actually tries.. well yeah they might do better if they went for an optimal class setup but damn let them at least try. if they suck then kick em or tell them to swap specs to something serious or gtfo.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-28 at 02:53 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Sorrior View Post
    Yes and others for socializing and look above.

    And just because you can't tell that's what I was saying does not mean that is my intent.

    And now if the OP were talking about doing this in say endgame or progression or even semi serious content sure complain as long as it is a true hindrance.

    but these guys just booted him right off and that's just silly.

    again MANY types of people play mmos not just the min/maxers.
    Not like the rules state you have to be a specific spec to queue as dps. maybe they should implement it so unless you are in the "best" spec that you cannot queue for any group content. afterall people shouldnt spoil their game...


    Personally I think Rift is well built for experimentation and when I group I do try out new stuff. but I also keep a real spec ready and explain that im trying out an alt build and that if it sucks ill swap.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morden View Post
    To be honest anyone who judges a player based on their spec/kit rather than their performance needs to stick to single player games. Because its always seemed to me that the ones who think like that are the ones who generally suck and simply cant cut it with a less than flavour of the month build.

    Myself I play what I find fun, and usually do better than a lot of the ones who play flavour specs and dont enjoy them.

    But food for thought would be this(the last time I raided truely seriously was in TBC): During TBC for a large part of it Arcane Mage's were literally the undisputed masters, so everyone who played a Mage was almost forced to spec Arcane once past a certain point or they would be steamrolled by anyone that did)

    So yeah me and a couple of my guildies took my very new level 70 Ele Shammy into Heroic Mechanar as soon as I had it unlocked, cant remember what I was after to be honest was a long time ago. it was me, and a tank and healer from my guild and 2 pug players. One of them being a seriously good Arcane Mage, and a Rogue. The Mage has near 50% more damage than the Rogue who was moderately well geared. Me? I steamrolled him and beat him by about 20%.

    Moral of the story? dont judge because they might well be able to pull off what you could not. (The Mage in question ended up joining my Raid Group cause he was impressed with how it worked out and couldnt believe he got creamed by a guy in greens/blues when he was in T4. Granted he royally shafted me once we were both in T5 but then I just switched to my Lock.)


    Most players are bad. Seriously bad. Really really seriously bad... So a good player can usually out perform them even with crap tbh. A seriously good player who has looked up how to play a class and actually tries.. well yeah they might do better if they went for an optimal class setup but damn let them at least try. if they suck then kick em or tell them to swap specs to something serious or gtfo.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-28 at 02:53 AM ----------



    Not like the rules state you have to be a specific spec to queue as dps. maybe they should implement it so unless you are in the "best" spec that you cannot queue for any group content. afterall people shouldnt spoil their game...


    Personally I think Rift is well built for experimentation and when I group I do try out new stuff. but I also keep a real spec ready and explain that im trying out an alt build and that if it sucks ill swap.
    THIS is EXACTLY what i mean..I would also add that just as a GENERAL aside offer to help others out IF they need it..Yelling and booting never has good long term results.

  20. #40
    Guys.

    It is honestly quite possible to tank dungeons with a 2h weapon effectively. Serious raid content, maybe not. Bleeding edge content, very unlikely.

    A fair point to ask someone to not deter the fun/enjoyment of others due to orthodoxy or stubbornness on their part. Yet if we take the OP at his word, he shouldn't be causing healers or any other group members stress. If one has the gear, it is totally possible to tank the dungeons in Rift using a 2h weapon with ease.

    Especially if the tank has enough HP. Warriors can only soak some magical attacks [armor has not effect/can't block magic]. In these cases the added armor and block rating mean nothing.

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