Garrosh Hellscream and to those who liked him

[Trassk]

I'm not making this post as a means of gloating over what we now know as Garrosh's death in the final encounter. Well anyone could argue this is PTR and so things are open to change, I think given how long his death speech was, its as clear as Nazgrims death he's doing this way.

And really, ever since blizzard announced he would be the final boss in mists, this conclusion has been the most obvious, and as mists story carried though and through, it became more increasingly obvious it was going this way, given all he was doing.

But I'm not going to go into the point obvious on his final development. What i want to more say here is, as weird as it sounds, I kind of understand why people who were fans of Garrosh felt the way they did. From the perspective of others, often when we have characters with different levels of complexity, what is found are people who only draw on a few aspects of that characters personity of actions as there way of seeing that character.

To his fans, they only saw Garrosh as the ultimate orc, he was big, aggressive, loud, he roared, he spat in peoples faces, and did some things people liked about as a leader. Heck, some of this actually comes from people only having an intrest in the old warcraft story, when it was good humans against bad orc, Garrosh heralded them back to those days of the mauarding orcs who killed without remorse.

However, this is where there is a cutoff point. Those who liked Garrosh, have only ever drawn on these few times he did something remotely competent in the story, much like how the orcs following Garrosh believed him to be a paragon of orcish rule, they didn't want to acknowledge anything else, kind of like when you read stories of american soldiers fighting in Afghanistan, how heroic they are. They want to think of there soldiers as doing good all the time.. even when you read a report on how american soldiers bombed an city there and killed innocents, or how a soldiers raped victims for fun.

And this is the cut off point I'm referring to on Garrosh. People have only ever wanted to see his character as that one who yelled how he hated to alliance (without any real reason), how he wanted orcs to rule the world (forget the rest of the horde), and how he was gaging for a fight against Varian to show his mantle and prove himself in his fathers memory.
Thats all well and good, but only drawing on these aspects of his character, and purposely ignoring every bad things Garrosh has done, only ever drawing on the points above, is why its lead to this situation of him being the final boss and his fans not understanding why (and the excuse 'blizzard made him this way' is just tiresome, they also made Illidan, Kael'thas, Deathwing and Arthas this way too).

I like to use a comparison to another literally character, that od Denethor from lord of the rings. Now I'm not sure he has a fanbase, sure not like Garrosh does, but you can argue the point across with this character. He is a douchebag in every sense, if you've read the book or seen the film, you know what I'm talking about.
However, if you were say a fan of the character, you could argue across why you like him purely based upon one aspect of his personality, the love he had for his son Boromir, and the grief he suffered because of that. You could argue that is his excuse for being the what he was because of it, but it honestly isn't the case. He hated his other son Faramir, and when the battle for gondor happened, he showed his lack of leadership and almost insanity that was his only driving reasoning for what he did. He was still a massive douchebag despite losing his favorite son.. and, hey, he chooses a favorite child, which in itself is fucking doucheness.
Yet, because of that one character trait, how he loved boromir and grieved for him, you could try and excuse everything else he does because of that one note.. it still doesn't excuse the fact the character was nasty in everything else he did.

On that, we come back to Garrosh, and the comparison with him. As his fans, you can try and argue until you lose breath that because of those couple of times Garrosh has done something actually right, or how he mourned for his dead father, that it could excuse every bad thing he's done as a character. You'd be wrong of course, it doesn't excuse anything for what he's done, and just ignoring every evil thing Garrosh has done in his story arch with the excuse of him being the kind of orc you like you see, big, dumb and aggressive', much like Denethor, you can't just pass off all the other douchebaggery he's committed as a character just because of those few small things.

I dare say some of you may still anyway, and some might even say you like the idea of a character that fucks up other characrters stories and kills without remorse, that you like this kind of character for whatever your reason. And thats your choice of course. But what you then have to accept it a character who commits acts like that will not simply get away with it, that all the bad shit that character does, despite the few small things he might have done right, will come back to get him.
And, as Garrosh is a character who does all this bad shit, and shows no remorse for it, how he kills and gets off on it, how he spits in the faces of the other faction leaders despite being so new to the horde, if you accepted this of his character, tried to convince yourselves he was going to carry on doing this without repercussions, then, just like Denethor and his conclusions, you hoped for something that wasn't ever going to happen. All that Garrosh did, if you thought he'd make in though and learn a lesson, you had more chance of pigs flying.

Maybe your learn something from this, characters that present themselves as one thing but are infact something else entirely, and who do whatever they want without repercussions, are characters that cannot run from it forever.

I'm not judging people who liked the character for his few good quantities, but I am saying, the fact you choose to ignore all the bad qualities, means you didn't really take on board the fullness of the developers lead up for this character. But hey, people don't seem to understand the depth of characters like Varian or Thrall either, so it shouldn't be any surprise you didn't understand every aspect of Garrosh, only choosing the parts you liked.

[wariofan1]

The reason I like Garrosh is exactly because of his bad qualities, and it's not that I'm a "herald of the old horde" or anything like that.

He's a bad leader, he's a tyrant, he's despicable, there's definitely nothing redeeming about him, I certainly wouldn't enjoy sharing a cup of coffee with him, he deserves to be the big bad of this expansion, and he even deserves to die.

Why in the wide world do I like him then? Why do I like a character I can't and don't want to relate to? Because he's a moving force in the story, he made the story more hectic, more frantic, and thus more interesting than it has ever been before. It's not that I've ever liked his personality or his ideals, it's just that those things are entertaining to observe. I feel that way because I'm just an observer, if I tried to live myself into the world of Azeroth sure I'd hate him, but as of now I'm just observing the unraveling of a great story, and I like how he has spiced up the story, I like that he's a total ass who has no respect, because it makes interesting stuff happen. It's pretty much a fact that the human mind loves to observe conflict and chaos, when Thrall was a Warchief sure it was better for the Horde, but since I don't find myself having much pride in a fictional faction I found it extremely boring because he stopped conflict from happening. With Garrosh on the throne the Horde began to rot, and it causes so much havoc that the whole faction is turning itself inside out, I'm excited to follow the story for once, it's moving forward in a frantic way that's just thrilling. Because of that I love Garrosh as a character, he makes things happen.

With that said and done, I do however think it's time for Garrosh to get hit by the backlash and get dethroned. A story can only last so long, and I think they're ending it at the right time. Even if Garrosh is the last character alive that I'm actually invested in following it might finally be time for him to lay off.

I realize your message wasn't directed at me as much as the people who actually try to back up around Garrosh's actions, I personally think that there's no denying that he's a bad guy, but I think this point of view probably has some relevance to the discussion.

[Deleted]

I personally think the guys who don't like Garrosh need to shut up. I don't like some characters aswell, and Garrosh is pretty annoying sometimes, but people seem to forget it's a CHARACTER. It should be said Blizzard did a good job by working towards this damn awesome climax with Garrosh as final boss in an Orgrimmar raid. Stop whining and start enjoying

[Deleted]

I like to use a comparison to another literally character, that od Denethor from lord of the rings.

I should have stopped reading there, because I should have known someone comparing "The Lord of the Rings" with shitty Blizzard writing has no clue.

Instead I stopped reading here:

it still doesn't excuse the fact the character was nasty in everything else he did.

What a load of bull. Either you only saw the movies or you didn't read the books very well if this is your final verdict.

[yetgdhfgh]

I still love him cause of his i love the orcs and fuck the rest attitude

and besides who gives a shit about the others Azeroth belongs to the orcs we all know it.

The True horde never needed the Selfish belfs, The money grubbing goblins, The Lich Queen, The hippy tauren or the wacked out trolls

They were and always had been canon fodder to us

Oh well next time gadget next time

The true horde will rise again when our lord and master sargeras comes back to rape you all

but seriously who gives a fuck about a badly written character who had to do a heel turn just to please the carebears who never took to him in the beginning and never gave him a chance

[Deleted]

Garrosh is a pretty cool character. He is different and thats why I like him

[wariofan1]

Oh well next time gadget next time

I thought this was a Garrosh and not a Lich King thread?

[Trassk]

I should have stopped reading there, because I should have known someone comparing "The Lord of the Rings" with shitty Blizzard writing has no clue.

Instead I stopped reading here:



What a load of bull. Either you only saw the movies or you didn't read the books very well if this is your final verdict.

Dear, I read lord of the rings though, and seen the movies countless of times. I know something of comparison when it comes to this. Just because you don't want to acknowledge such character traits is you gripe, not mine.

[Kuntantee]

This is my first exception for asking a TLR in my entire Interwebz career. Can you put a TLR version please?

[Deleted]

Garrosh is a pretty cool guy. He batship crazy and doesn't afraid of anything.

[Tekkommo]

This is my first exception for asking a TLR in my entire Interwebz career. Can you put a TLR version please?

TLDR 'Garrosh is a Douchebag'

I like Garrosh because he is more like how the Orcs should be, I don't like the flower picking Orcs under Thrall.

[Valerean]

Christ on a bike OP, it's a video game. Stop trying to psychoanalyze people over fantasy pixels.

[Deleted]

He is a douche, he dies, he made for a cool endboss, he's something different from the other ones.

[Deleted]

What the hell do you do in your spare time mate?
Besides writing essays about fictional characters ofcourse.

[Spray]

Christ on a bike OP, it's a video game. Stop trying to psychoanalyze people over fantasy pixels.

It's not only fantasy pixels, it's an RPG, built on a story, a compelling one. Characters depicted in this and every other fantasy universe need to be as close to real as possible, because that's what distinguishes RPG genre from the other ones. Why is the psychoanalysis bad then?

What the hell do you do in your spare time mate?
Besides writing essays about fictional characters ofcourse.

Geez, same here, why do you care? For some people it's not just a game, but a passion. If you can make judgments on real people, why not on virtual, if they possess the same traits?

[Wildberry]

What the hell do you do in your spare time mate?
Besides writing essays about fictional characters ofcourse.

That probably took Trassk like 10-15 minutes to type up, so it's not this super time consuming thing as you've assumed. Plus does it matter if he enjoys it? I enjoy raiding, is it a waste of time? Yes, monumentally. I enjoy reading Warcraft stuff, again, is it a waste of time, absolutely. My point being, is that there are plenty of ways to spend your time in an unproductive manner, but since it's your leisure time, it honestly shouldn't matter.

[Deleted]

That probably took Trassk like 10-15 minutes to type up, so it's not this super time consuming thing as you've assumed. Plus does it matter if he enjoys it? I enjoy raiding, is it a waste of time? Yes, monumentally. I enjoy reading Warcraft stuff, again, is it a waste of time, absolutely. My point being, is that there are plenty of ways to spend your time in an unproductive manner, but since it's your leisure time, it honestly shouldn't matter.

Not saying it matters, just curious.
Think he's in too deep.

[Trassk]

Not saying it matters, just curious.
Think he's in too deep.

no its really as wildberry said it, you act like this is an all consuming thing with me, but I'm discussing lore of warcraft on a warcraft thread, thats all I'm doing. What would be out of place here is me discussing something completely unrelated to wow on a wow thread.
And i'm not in deep, I'm just read and watched all this shit go down and base the analysis of the story from that.

thats like saying 'your in way to deep man!' when you write a page summing up the entire story of harry potter. I liked the books but that doesn't mean I'm all consuming of it -_-

[Redlokyldoreifanggore]

Ah still sticking to the whole, "if you like this guy in-game then you're the epitome of everything wrong with the world" argument I see. Honestly Trassk, I'm thinking you're just a one-trick pony at this point, but I digress...

Garrosh is a despicable, hypocritical, bloodthirsty, unmerciful, fiendish, savage, psychotic, genocidal, racist piece of trash who was able to rile up the horde and alliance conflict story-wise. Honestly, with Thrall being as peace-loving as he is, do you think the "war" could have actually been something if neither faction made any drastic moves?

Thanks to Garry:
1) We brought the worgen in
2) We had something other than sha, mogu, and mantid to kill off in pandaria
3) We saw that a large portion of orcs aren't any better off than they were several decades ago when they stepped through the dark portal
4) We saw that even the blood elves don't know who they like and how they themselves don't trust most of the horde
5) We got to see Thrall actually develop into more than just an all-powerful guy sitting on his throne
6) We made an actual war between the horde and alliance for a time before the inevitable "truce" between the rebels and alliance
7) We got to see interesting character development in Jaina, Lor'Themar, Sylvanas, Vol'Jin, Anduin
8) The tremendous loss of life on both sides, including several characters between Cata and Mists
9) The horde actually have a great degree of success and a reason to even be in Northrend
10) Further developed the story of the Old Gods


Now does this mean I like Garry? As a character I've wanted him dead since I first entered WoW and saw him instigate the fight with Varian in the Violet Citadel, but as a lorehound I'm glad he came along so some story could develop. Did I like finding out that Theramore was becoming an in-game Hiroshima? No. Did I like finding out that Jaina's peace-of-mind was finally broken? No. Did I like that Anduin got physically obliterated? No. Did I like that Vol'Jin was nearly killed off? No. Did I like that he barked about honor in Stonetalon after a peaceful school got nuked and then turned around to nuke an entire city full of innocent men, women, and children? No. Did I like that your sacred idol Thrall was so short-sighted? No. The point to a good story is what steps it takes to get the participant involved. To take you on an emotional roller coaster. Good people die. Bad people die. Black-and-white ideals are grayed out. People make drastic choices in times of desperation. That is what a story is. People you hate may actually succeed. It fuels your inner rage and gets you immersed in the story.

So Trassk, please do not take offense when I say this, but please quit yammering about Garrosh' fan base. You've already made your points over and over and over and over and over and over and over again. We get it. People "defended" Garrosh, the same way you've defended Thrall and his horde (though perhaps not to the same intensity and depth as you).


tl;dr Garrosh is a bad guy. Garrosh's fans know this. They are willing to defend the good scraps of character, including his ability to screw things up for the sake of interesting plot. Quit saying anybody who supports him is the same as him.

[Deleted]

I enjoyed Garrosh over the last few expansions because of his My way or the Highway attitude. He made the war between the Alliance and Horde much more exciting since the factions were slowly becoming friendlier with each other and well Warcraft to me has always been about fighting one another.

I'm actually going to be sad when he's out the game for good due to his unpredictable personality. Some say it is predictable like he is so going to kill that dude over there. But he goes a step beyond and throws someone off a cliff. Pretty bad ass in my books. But with the sound files is sounds like Varian is injured/killed. I'd like to see if that was Garrosh who went in for the kill perhaps like Varian storms off into Orgrimmar and goes to take him one on one. Being an Alliance player that could effect the storyline even more with Auduin becoming King. He may be a kid but he has got a good head on his shoulders which inevitably could end the faction war completely. Bringing a whole new storyline probably revolving around the burning legion. Garrosh has bought so much to the game and when hes dead he will continue to do so through his echo. Yes he is a dick but its great for the progression of a game.