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  1. #21
    That "flavor" stance is bull crap. It's what they say when they fail to design something effectively, for the love of god I cannot even see my pets in 25 man raids, nor ever infact due to ground effects and what not. Good post Draco, hope it gets consideration.

  2. #22
    Stampede in current state is just usuless - no argument here, it just need to be once again redisgned or just removed.
    Silencing.. well leaving it as a talent was also pointless, i guess best way is making it basic for all specs, but blizzard seems to disagree(other option is slight redisgn of Intimidation so it will interupt AND stun).
    Pets need some redisgn mostly for AI but they are also just buggy.
    Readiness - it is a nerf for already weak class (dps wise) - i don't say its bad change but hunters need some buff to compensate.
    Specs // raid utility - its tricky one, but i am personally willing to take a risk, and hope for really big redisgn of ours specs/talents.. well everything. But its to big to be done midpatch. Like many already suggested our specs are now (i'm talking about pve rotation only) ~10 exactly same skills, 2-3 skills that do same thing with different name/animation and maybe 1-2 really unique, but often insignificant, skills per spec.

    So in conclusion i'm waiting for some sort of declaration from blizzard, that we will see huge changes in hunter specs in next expansion, and that it will be something that we will trully be able to call redisgn.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by petok View Post
    "We originally designed it [Stampede] with an “empty your stables” theme primarily for flavor–we wanted you to be able to see all of your favorite pets." (Bluepost by Takralus - Jun 12, 2013)
    This is the problem. We were supposed to pull out "favorite" green cats, blue batterflies and pink birds, not to do damage. Stampede redesing is not going to happen. Who will redesing the "flavor" ability?
    If he says "originally" that means it could have adapted to fit another idea.

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  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Tehstool View Post
    If he says "originally" that means it could have adapted to fit another idea.
    "We originally designed it with an “empty your stables” theme primarily for flavor–we wanted you to be able to see all of your favorite pets. In practice, it turned into more of a “deck building” mini-game, where Hunters were managing their entire stable to bring as much crowd control, raid buffs, etc. as possible. That’s opposite of our intentions with the Mists stable redesign; we want you to be able to pull out whichever pet you feel is ideal for your current situation. If you’re instead filling your stable based on whatever’s ideal for Stampede, you lose that entirely."
    What's wrong with hunters managing their stables? What's wrong with hunters trying to get all possible buffs from the talent?
    So if you have green+orange+red+purple+pink pets - "that's how it was designed"? And if you have 5 pets with 5 different buffs - "you lose that entirely". Who do they think we are - Barbie dress collectors?

  5. #25
    Readiness nerf will put us in a better spot and easier to balance I'm sure. But you are right in the fact that a hunter without readiness will be a boring class just because readiness split the good and the bad hunters in terms of how well a player did their rotation with it. But like I said without having to balance around readiness it will possibly (if blizzard does it right) put us in a better position. It is just sad that after all the nerfs before readiness nerf wouldn't need to have happen if they just listened to the community and nerfed readiness at the get go.

    Now will they give our silencing shot back for all specs again?
    Last edited by Slot; 2013-06-26 at 03:34 PM.

  6. #26
    Agree with a lot of this, although the utility a Hunter brings to a raid decreases as the raid size increases (ie, on 10-man the ability to bring a missing buff is a lot more important than on a 25-man fight). Honestly, I'm not sure how to fix this outside of a major rework to something (see below).

    I'm also fine with Readiness just being a non-dps cooldown (I've found that I use it more for non-dps resets anyway; an extra whatever dps in the opener doesn't matter if you can't get an emergency deterrence off).

    As for Deterrence, I agree it's wonky how sometimes it stops all damage and sometimes it doesn't. But I like it as a flexible situation skill ability (last night I was around 5k* and popped it and that gave enough time to get brought back up - one of the healers even said they had given up on me because they assumed I was too far gone) and I'm concerned that if they streamlined its effect it would become a single-situation use.

    As for Stampede and DPS/utility cooldowns, I actually think there's a combined solution available: Aspect Stampedes. Since our regular Aspects are pretty much not even worth thinking about, get rid of them and instead give us Aspects that control Stampede as well as does something else for the raid until used. This is off the top of my head now, but I'm thinking like:

    Your Aspect bar has four options: Aspect of the Turtle, Aspect of the Wolf, Aspect of the Raven, and Aspect of the Spirit Beast each with a 3 or 5 minute CD in combat (CD resets out of combat). When an Aspect is active, it provides a buff:
    Turtle: Reduces AOE dmg to all raid members by X%
    Wolf: Increases Physical Damage by all raid members by X%
    Raven: Reduces CC effects by X seconds
    Spirit Beast: Increases Healing received by all raid members by X%

    Now, Aspects can not be changed in Combat without "Stampeding" the Aspect. Hitting the Stampede button takes the Aspect off and puts it on a 3 or 5 minute CD and all other Aspects on CD while the specific Stampede is active (length of specific stampede is variable).

    Turtle Stampede: Damage to all raid members reduced by X% while Turtle Stampede is active
    Wolf Stampede: Damage to boss increased by X% while Wolf Stampede is active
    Raven Stampede: Removes all dispellable ccs from the entire raid and protects against new ccs applied while Raven Stampede is active (yes, this will be need to be adjusted/removed for PVP)
    Spirit Beast Stampede: No member of the raid can be brought below X health while active. Anyone below X health will be healed to X.

    In some ways this is essentially turning the constellations part of the Twin Consorts raid into a character ability. The Aspects by themselves provide a benefit - and there may be some fights where you set it to, say, Spirit Beast, and leave it there the entire fight. You won't be able to swap between Aspects because of the Stampede requirement in Combat (would be 'anyone in group in combat' so you couldn't try to FD/Shadowmeld swap), and the Stampede itself would have some CD to prevent stacking.

    But let's look at Iron Qon as a possibility:
    Start off with Aspect of the Turtle for the first two Quilien. When the first tornado phase hits, pop Stampede to reduce the damage you're taking. You can't go back into Aspect of the Turtle for 3 minutes, so you go to Aspect of Wolf to do damage. You stay in Aspect of the Wolf until the second Fist Smash (so you can coordinate the extra raid damage with Heroism), and then pop Stampede to coincide with the end of the Heroism. You can then go back to Aspect of the Turtle - with the plan of either Stampeding for say, the fifth Fist Smash as a CD, or just keeping it til the end of the fight - or Aspect of the Spirit Beast with its Stampede as a 1% OH CRAP HALF THE RAID IS DEAD KEEP US ALIVE!!!!!11

    ... or something like that.



    *That wasn't the most ridiculous thing to happen to my health last night: I went down to 1 HP on a fight. Sadly, I wasn't able to get saved in that situation

    EDIT: The Aspect buff wouldn't be stackable so there wouldn't be a point to having multiple hunters bring the same Aspect to a fight outside of wanting to use multiple Stampedes. And yes, I could see a situation where this would make stacking hunters on some fights desirable, but since this is the Hunter forum, I'm ok with that.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-26 at 11:32 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by petok View Post
    Who do they think we are - Barbie dress collectors?
    Some of us like to play with style!

    ... still hoping they add the ability to tame Oxen so I can have an August Celestials stampede
    Last edited by chrth; 2013-06-26 at 03:40 PM.

  7. #27
    Pandaren Monk Fullmetal89's Avatar
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    I agree with you Draco. Once again the mini-game "PvP" is leading the changes to every class. I don't think Blizz is going to address any of the issues we have until they see a huge drop in the Hunter population. Its not just the ability bloat that is bad, its the lack of raid utility and broken mechanics we have. There's still a ton of issues with pet bugs and disengage is still broken thanks to the warrior charge fix. After playing my hunter for 8 years or so, I don't expect anything from Blizzard anymore, about the only significant change we have gotten in those 8 years was the move to focus instead of mana and the removal of minimum range. Most of the other changes have been back and forth where they remove/add an ability and then take it from us later down the road because other classes complain that we are too OP.

  8. #28
    Couldn't agree more with the Stampede complaint you made. People see 5 pets running at them and soil them selves, thinking that it's 5 pets doing 5x 100% damage. If anything Stampede was a Utility spell for PvP situations were you can mix and match pets in your stables to grant temporary buffs.

    Furthermore, the PvE situation of Hunters looks dire. We are back to being just a 'dps' class (not implying that we were somewhat use full prior). Possessing no raid cooldowns like Tranq, Vampiric Embrace, Devotion Aura, Smoke Bomb, Health Stones/Portals and many more, why even bother brining us when you can get a more usefull range class.

    From 4.3 onwards, Hunters were only bought along just to whore the possible mail drops as giving it to a useless raider Is better than DE'ing even though we scaled shockingly with gear.
    Lastly, If they're going to nerf something because It's too strong or to bursty In the case of stampede, why not just compensate the loss of burst with a reduced CD to atleast 2 minutes? I mean, letting pets only Auto attack, seriously blizz? It should have a 2 min CD and be off the GCD since it's lost more than half It's damage output.
    Last edited by Lurkerqt; 2013-06-26 at 03:42 PM.

  9. #29
    While I'm not sure about the Aspect related buffing that chrth talked about, I do think that adding something to make Stampede a useful raid CD might be the way to go. As it is right now, it's a very depressing ability.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by NomadKing View Post
    While I'm not sure about the Aspect related buffing that chrth talked about, I do think that adding something to make Stampede a useful raid CD might be the way to go. As it is right now, it's a very depressing ability.
    If the abilities as written are overly complicated, they could always have the ability to use existing buffs/debuffs (in the latter case, your pet would automatically apply it). The issue with that is the same issue Hunter have now in 25-man: diminished value the more people are in the raid.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-26 at 12:00 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Daetur View Post
    I cross-posted that onto the US forums, I hope you don't mind (http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/9377147954).
    Daetur, could you move it to the PTR discussion forum? My understanding is that the Class forums are already largely ignored by Blizzard (they usually say "Go post in the Role forum") and it may be more successful when next to Warlock whining instead of Hunter whining.

  11. #31
    Over 9000! Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Am I the only one who's okay with readiness being a non dps cooldown? I mean it lets you use it for twice the defensive purpose. Either to detterence something twice and mitigate damage or disengage away and get to xyz spot faster or dodge some goo on the ground better.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by chrth View Post
    If the abilities as written are overly complicated, they could always have the ability to use existing buffs/debuffs (in the latter case, your pet would automatically apply it). The issue with that is the same issue Hunter have now in 25-man: diminished value the more people are in the raid.
    Don't get me I wrong, I do think it's an interesting idea and can see you've put some thought into it, it's just that historically with hunters the more versatile the ability can be, the more water down blizzard make it (ever scared about suddenly making hunters OP...). If we're getting raid utility, I'd prefer it was something worth pressing (Tranq, Skull Banner, Stormlash) with a strong purpose, than something so versatile and have all the effects feel a bit "meh" for balancing sake.

    The idea about linking it to the pets buff/debuffs is also another good one - but as you already pointed out, it may be hard to make that still feel useful in a 25m situation.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by NomadKing View Post
    The idea about linking it to the pets buff/debuffs is also another good one - but as you already pointed out, it may be hard to make that still feel useful in a 25m situation.
    Yeah, and maybe the Aspects themselves only apply to the Hunter and his or her pet and it's just the Stampedes that are useful. My concern with that architecture, though, is that the raid will only consider the Stampede effect in the analysis (e.g. may want Hunter to do a Turtle Stampede on the fourth grouping for Megara, necessitating the Hunter use an Aspect that isn't as beneficial for the Hunter).

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-26 at 12:14 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Am I the only one who's okay with readiness being a non dps cooldown? I mean it lets you use it for twice the defensive purpose. Either to detterence something twice and mitigate damage or disengage away and get to xyz spot faster or dodge some goo on the ground better.
    No, I'm cool with it, and I actually remember the community being cool with it earlier this xpac because of the balancing/button bloat concerns. Not sure what shifted there; probably because of our place on the meters currently.

  14. #34
    Great post, Draco. I echo a lot of your thoughts and share the same concerns. I hope that some of these concerns (which some are more important than others) get looked at by the development team for patch 5.4 but I'm afraid a lot of this won't take place until patch 6.0

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by chrth View Post
    Daetur, could you move it to the PTR discussion forum? My understanding is that the Class forums are already largely ignored by Blizzard (they usually say "Go post in the Role forum") and it may be more successful when next to Warlock whining instead of Hunter whining.
    That's a great idea, I didn't think of it. http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/9377367946#1

  16. #36
    The Lightbringer Tehterokkar's Avatar
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    I don't even see the point to having different pets for looks from Stampede, they will all be stacked up so tightly that you think it's a chimera or something.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by chrth View Post

    Your Aspect bar has four options: Aspect of the Turtle, Aspect of the Wolf, Aspect of the Raven, and Aspect of the Spirit Beast each with a 3 or 5 minute CD in combat (CD resets out of combat). When an Aspect is active, it provides a buff:
    Turtle: Reduces AOE dmg to all raid members by X%
    Wolf: Increases Physical Damage by all raid members by X%
    Raven: Reduces CC effects by X seconds
    Spirit Beast: Increases Healing received by all raid members by X%

    That sounds pretty cool. I like it.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by petok View Post
    "We originally designed it with an “empty your stables” theme primarily for flavor–we wanted you to be able to see all of your favorite pets. In practice, it turned into more of a “deck building” mini-game, where Hunters were managing their entire stable to bring as much crowd control, raid buffs, etc. as possible. That’s opposite of our intentions with the Mists stable redesign; we want you to be able to pull out whichever pet you feel is ideal for your current situation. If you’re instead filling your stable based on whatever’s ideal for Stampede, you lose that entirely."
    What's wrong with hunters managing their stables? What's wrong with hunters trying to get all possible buffs from the talent?
    So if you have green+orange+red+purple+pink pets - "that's how it was designed"? And if you have 5 pets with 5 different buffs - "you lose that entirely". Who do they think we are - Barbie dress collectors?

    Read the entire of your post and its well organized with good suggestions, I hope it reaches the ear of the master designers.

    We seriously have to question the lack of forethought and judgement on the part of the game designers, did they really think hunters would not see the huge, powerful benefit of stacking our stable with 5 uniquley specialized beasts, did they think we wouldnt stack our stables to benefit stampede raid utility?!!? That 'deck building' is what was so cool about stampede and any good hunter was bringing stable variety to raids pre stampede release anyway. Lack of planning on their part should not result in a poorly desguised excuse of "its not what we intended", they had months to test its implications and if they are that out of touch with hunter playstyle they shouldnt be developing hunter talents. The only solution to this constant nerf buff nerf wheel is to develop seperate pve/pvp specs and trees. Intial development and fine tuning would be painful but the long term gain of keeping both communities content and playing should outweigh the initial cost.

  19. #39
    Very well written draco.That post is addressing a lot of hunter problems that needed to be heard.
    I pretty much agree with everything you've written though i will have to agree with Tehstool about compensation
    we gotta hang on and be a little patient PVE adjustment is quite far atm and Ghostcrawler made a twitt about readiness
    and said that hunters will be compensated.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by bendak View Post
    It's not that the devs hate hunters, it's just that they have no idea how to solve our problems without making us absurdly powerful in PVP.

    I can solve this right now. Load different rulesets in instanced PVP than in PVE instances or the world at large. Problem solved - you can adjust spells however you want in Arenas, BGs, RBGs and it wouldn't affect PVE in the slightest. That they'd rather screw classes over than do this speaks volumes

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