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  1. #21
    Just to jump in here, I'm not offering up my personal opinion since I'd like to point people to this thread to understand the debate.

    What I've seen here so far pretty well represents the varying opinions I've seen in my travels around the internet.

    On the topic of Salanis feeling misunderstood, maybe you should try to rephrase your original points so we can get a better idea what you were trying to get at.
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  2. #22
    Voidspark/Freia: This salanis guy is either a troll or has never played a paladin. Why even bother wasting your time responding? Probably some bitter monk who just sucks at the game.

    In other news, I've given up on my holydin on the ptr for the moment and am once more playing fat owl!

    Please refrain from insulting other forum users. - Malthanis
    Last edited by Malthanis; 2013-07-01 at 01:33 PM.

  3. #23
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oggyowl View Post
    Voidspark/Freia: This salanis guy is either a troll or has never played a paladin. Why even bother wasting your time responding? Probably some bitter monk who just sucks at the game.

    In other news, I've given up on my holydin on the ptr for the moment and am once more playing fat owl!
    Actually he has a paladin and only farms normal modes minus Jin'rohk heroic(he posted his paladin in the "Fix my heals"), so his views aren't really healing on at heroic raid level thus you get the statements about mastery increasing effective health of the raid being useless.

  4. #24
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    The big thing is, I feel his idea of how to actually tank heal is just plain suboptimal. Perhaps he should check Kerfax's guide, there's actually a (IMO, better) tank heal rotation given in there, and one which differs a lot from both of Salanis' two possible rotatoins given.


    If you don't even know how to optimally tank heal as a paladin, I can't take any opinion of yours regarding whether paladins are "raid or tank" healers seriously. At all.
    Last edited by nightfalls; 2013-06-30 at 08:44 AM.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    The big thing is, I feel his idea of how to actually tank heal is just plain suboptimal. Perhaps he should check Kerfax's guide, there's actually a (IMO, better) tank heal rotation given in there, and one which differs a lot from both of Salanis' two possible rotatoins given.


    If you don't even know how to optimally tank heal as a paladin, I can't take any opinion of yours regarding whether paladins are "raid or tank" healers seriously. At all.
    You can pretty much tank heal while raid healing as a paladin

  6. #26
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilthresa View Post
    You can pretty much tank heal while raid healing as a paladin
    Yep, and in Salanis's mind if you are EF blanketing, you are completely ignoring the tanks which is false.

  7. #27
    While I agree completely with Freia/Void on our current role in raids....I can't say I enjoy the current style much. Shields are nice, and they look decent on meters (impossible to currently catch a Druid, Disc or MW that really knows what they are doing but still) but I'd have to say we're really mediocre at everything...tank healing included.

    Salanis, I'm trying to understand why you think EF blanketing is poor tank healing...think on this: On a fight where heavy raid and tank damage is constant (Primordius being a great example) how is EF blanketing not the best way to contribute to your raids healing?

    EF blanking in a Primordius scenario (2-3 tanks): Get 2-3 HP up on all tanks, Beacon on the tank taking the most damage and then proceeding to 1-2 point EF the low hp members of the raid vs keeping 3 point EF just on tanks and then hard casting heals on them (which is what you're suggesting).

    Style 1 keeps a rolling hot and shield on all tanks and low raid members (or a building mastery shield on someone you think will be taking damage soon) while all those EF hots and your active healing is transferred to the tank taking the most damage via beacon. Obviously if a tank dips extremely low you switch to HS, Flash etc but all healers do that in emergencies.

    Style 2 is what you say is better. Keep 3hp EFs on the tanks, constantly hard cast on tanks with HL/FoL/DL and let the Monks/Druids/Priests/Shamans worry about the raid.

    Style 2 completely wastes our IH, which is the only saving grace of the spec right now. Your hard casted spells are going to be extremely long (most Paladins have well under 3000 haste) unless you ignore mastery and gear/gem for haste. This again wastes our mastery. Fail to utilize mastery well + stack haste and you're practically just a really weak version of a Shaman.

    Active Mitigation completely killed off the need for dedicated tank healers. Time to move on; snipe as much of that Monks/Discs healing because....just because.
    Last edited by VQHavox; 2013-06-30 at 01:24 PM.

  8. #28
    The Holy Paladin role in a raid currently is to try and snipe as much healing from the Disc/Mistweaver/Druid as possible and try not to get beaten too hard. Thats pretty much all.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by VQHavox View Post
    While I agree completely with Freia/Void on our current role in raids....I can't say I enjoy the current style much. Shields are nice, and they look decent on meters (impossible to currently catch a Druid, Disc or MW that really knows what they are doing but still) but I'd have to say we're really mediocre at everything...tank healing included.

    Salanis, I'm trying to understand why you think EF blanketing is poor tank healing...think on this: On a fight where heavy raid and tank damage is constant (Primordius being a great example) how is EF blanketing not the best way to contribute to your raids healing?

    EF blanking in a Primordius scenario (2-3 tanks): Get 2-3 HP up on all tanks, Beacon on the tank taking the most damage and then proceeding to 1-2 point EF the low hp members of the raid vs keeping 3 point EF just on tanks and then hard casting heals on them (which is what you're suggesting).

    Style 1 keeps a rolling hot and shield on all tanks and low raid members (or a building mastery shield on someone you think will be taking damage soon) while all those EF hots and your active healing is transferred to the tank taking the most damage via beacon. Obviously if a tank dips extremely low you switch to HS, Flash etc but all healers do that in emergencies.

    Style 2 is what you say is better. Keep 3hp EFs on the tanks, constantly hard cast on tanks with HL/FoL/DL and let the Monks/Druids/Priests/Shamans worry about the raid.

    Style 2 completely wastes our IH, which is the only saving grace of the spec right now. Your hard casted spells are going to be extremely long (most Paladins have well under 3000 haste) unless you ignore mastery and gear/gem for haste. This again wastes our mastery. Fail to utilize mastery well + stack haste and you're practically just a really weak version of a Shaman.

    Active Mitigation completely killed off the need for dedicated tank healers. Time to move on; snipe as much of that Monks/Discs healing because....just because.
    I really like the idea of blanketing EF's on the raid as filler for when the tanks don't need healed (which is alot of the time) in order to do your part of the raid healing, its something I have juggled around a lot and even done quite a few times myself. The reason I havn't adopted it into my own playstyle fully is because as previously stated I raid 10m casually myself, and my group is more likely to need healing from stepping in bad for a second than taking large consistent aoe damage. I've found myself pulling higher numbers when ef blanketing on the side like that but in my own group things seem to feel smoother when I play more spot healer for mistakes people are making with bigger EF's or beacon swapped FoLs. (using LoD to make up for the kind of "consistent" raid damage we would take in normals.) But I don't personally raid much heroic so I don't heal like heroics myselfs (which is what people focused on when I gave an example of my own healing to explain my point, not give a guide on how to heal,) but I have studied the class enough to know how to do it and was trying to talk to that point of view.

    No I actually condone healing much closer to your style 1 than style 2, I think its a very solid healing style. In fact the healing style I was claiming poor is that of straight EF blanketing the raid, playing as a predominant raid healer and letting other classes pick up the tanks(healing like a monk.) I've found this to be a very common style and I have talked to paladins in 9/13H 11/13H and a 7/13H guild who do it, and when looking at their logs the tanks are usually only 5th or 6th on their most healed! (coming in at around 4m healing from beacon average, changing on the fight obviously.) This style will almost always pull top heals for the paladin because like most classes Aoe healing will (and should) pull higher heals for mana than single target healing. The issue being that our single target healing provides higher heals for mana than many other healing classes, so I feel it would be better for paladins to be doing a higher % of that single target healing than those other classes because paladins can do it more efficiently. (If that makes sense)
    Last edited by Salanis; 2013-06-30 at 05:01 PM.

  10. #30
    It's difficult for me to comment on your specific situation then; as I raid 25man and heroic modes. In theory style 1 should be very good for you though (normal modes is where our mastery really shines; outgoing damage will let you completely snipe most healers and is the reason most other classes think we are too strong). We're actually quite weak but that's a different topic...

    1hp EF blanketing during progression is a very poor choice of healing style (farming is a completely different story though). It's nowhere near as effective without the old T14 4pc either. I've found since losing the 4 second HS and acquiring the Legendary Gem that I throw out much more 3hp EFs than ever before; maybe others have different experiences though.

    In regards to our single target heals being mana efficient you're correct. Consider that unless the tank needs urgent healing though the mana you spent on HL/DL could've gone towards a HR onto melee/ranged cluster that will do significantly more upfront healing, produce shields on all of them, activate Daybreak, give you HP and transfer almost as much health to the tank as that direct heal would have.

    Assuming tanks are doing their AM part correctly then they should only take spikes during predetermined phases/abilities; something that every healer should be ready for ahead of time anyway.

    As for your method of "spot healing" in your raid; I think that suits the class fine. Every other class handles BURST raid damage infinitely better than we do; so stick to keeping EF on tanks, HR+HR+HS on clusters and put those 2-3 EFs on low raid members so the other classes can do the burst raid healing that we can't do (just take LoD off your bars, it's just not worth it).

    Maybe others will disagree on my opinion that we're HORRIBLE for burst raid healing; but I find we're only even approaching sort of acceptable with Holy Avenger up. Outside of it? I feel helpless. When it comes to tanks taking random spikes just accept that both of you are likely going to panic and emergency spam him no matter what assignments you give yourselves; it happens.
    Last edited by VQHavox; 2013-06-30 at 06:05 PM.

  11. #31
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salanis View Post
    I've found this to be a very common style and I have talked to paladins in 9/13H 11/13H and a 7/13H guild who do it, and when looking at their logs the tanks are usually only 5th or 6th on their most healed!
    How much overhealing are they doing on tanks? And how intense is the tank damage on these logs you are looking at? Here's the distribution of some decent-ranking (hence, I raid healed) parses on a few fights of mine:

    Tank 1 5799989 12.0 %
    Tank 2 4709333 9.7 %
    Self 2602767 5.4 %
    Raid Member 2582175 5.3 %
    Raid Member 2464401 5.1 %
    Raid Member 2409029 5.0 %

    Tank 1 13092173 31.4 %
    Tank 2 4092286 9.8 %
    Raid Member 2064082 4.9 %
    Raid Member 1733587 4.2 %

    Note that in the second fight, my healing assignment was Tank 1, in the first, it was a tank swap. In both of these fights, I definitely did not use your suboptimal method of tank healing.

    ---

    But why me, maybe I'm just some scrub. Here's #2 West on Primordius:

    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-7c...?s=7547&e=7916 - top healed (16.5%, 15.1%) are the tanks.

    Here's #2 West on Durumu:

    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-fb...?s=7582&e=7897 - top healed (22.2%) was... the tank (what?!).

    #3 West on Dark Animus:

    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-g4...=11518&e=11853 - top healed (13.5%) was... their assigned tank.



    That's 3 for 3... can you actually post things that are true or just get out of here?
    Last edited by nightfalls; 2013-06-30 at 11:45 PM.

  12. #32
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salanis View Post
    I've found this to be a very common style and I have talked to paladins in 9/13H 11/13H and a 7/13H guild who do it, and when looking at their logs the tanks are usually only 5th or 6th on their most healed!
    As Void said, my top most healed are tanks. If you check the logs of most paladins that is the case. I don't really see how you are finding paladins who have few heals on the tanks. Basically either you are exaggerating, are mistaken for who the tank is in the logs, or looking at the logs of bad pallies.

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