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  1. #221
    The Lightbringer Zell the Stormbreaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    Right, I think Blizzard is balancing this in 5.4 (and has done some adjustments), but even in 25m there's many reasons warriors are just plain behind. DPS, raid healing. Tank mitigation is relatively more balanced in 25m, but in 10m other tank specs pretty much do not need a dedicated healer and some even serve as a raid healer themselves.

    Overall though, I do think it's not completely bad. At the very least, for a role as important as it is, all tanks are capable of tanking all of the end-tier heroic content in guilds that clear at a fairly reasonable rate.
    No, I don't mean to be implying that I disagree (in fact, I find myself nodding to most of your posts); and I think that, in general, all tanks are tanking the content. There are, however, a terrible dearth of warriors in 10-man progression, and there really has to be a reason for that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saiyoran View Post
    Damage is something that provides a challenge and differentiates a good tank from a bad tank.
    See, I dislike generalisations like this because they don't really do the subject justice. I know you're only really saying that equally geared tanks doing roughly the same thing will see the skilled player doing more damage, but this expansion has seen an awful lot of bad behaviour going on; tanks taunting off needlessly for more damage, scumbagging, and different roles in an encounter (or the way a group deals with it) can all contribute.

    I, for example, am ranked multiple times despite being very defence-centric and I never scumbag. Ever. I don't even /sit. I'm pretty good is what I'm trying to say. Yet, my Tortos parses all look dreadful because of the way my guild did it - namely, I took the bats but we stop killing them after two thirds of the fight while I just kite them around.

    Again, I know you're not saying "good tanks do good damage rofl", I just want to make it clear that you cannot always apply that rationale.

  2. #222
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saishan View Post
    I'd disagree that the AM part of tanking is trivial.
    On Horridon, Tortos, Jikun, Durumu and RaDen it's pretty damn important you get it right at least as a prot pally, not saying it's massively hard just reasonably challenging while doing everything else that's needed.

    I definitely agree that tanks doing competitive dps is fun and important though, because if we only needed to worry about our AM our rotations would become much less engaging.
    The fights that give tanks the highest DPS reward (read: high vengeance) are also the hardest when it comes to active mitigation and staggering tank CD's. (Minus the /sit and void zones which are being removed in 5.4 anyway).

    For the most part, I'd say this isn't bad in principle. Nor is vengeance the absolute worst thing in principle, though I still think there should be a reachable cap with Stamina becoming a DPS stat. But when it comes to actual numbers, I don't think Blizzard thought the mechanic through.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-28 at 10:45 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    tanks taunting off needlessly for more damage, scumbagging...
    I understand that it's engaging to have tanks do more DPS while actually tanking, but that's another point that I think we often forget. When you have fights that are meant to be 2 tanked in stuff like LFR, it just encourages a more geared, better, or even just more impatient tank to pull and tank everything and do lots of DPS.

    Meanwhile the other tank has 0 vengeance, can't actually be able to hold anything (because even after taunting, with a 200% threat modifier, that avenger's shield is going to instantaneously yank the mob right back from that poor no-DPS-stat warrior). Then you have tanks that chain-taunt on purpose to have more adds for more vengeance.

    Obviously this is good for the group, but as for the other tank... well, when one tank is having fun, usually no one else is.

    Overscaled vengeance, in all honesty, encourages pretty bad behavior in pug/LFR groups. I can say I wouldn't be so eager to disregard my group if I wasn't basically doing more than double the damage of the DPS and if pulling more mobs than intended resulted in un-healable (for average LFR-geared healers, anyway) damage.
    Last edited by nightfalls; 2013-06-28 at 10:46 AM.

  3. #223
    Prot Pala winning Healing meters on Tortos HC by huge amount, ye I think its getting out of control
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  4. #224
    Herald of the Titans RicardoZ's Avatar
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    I don't think Vengeance is really necessary. It's easier than ever to hold threat now so it's not like that mage or rogue or hunter is going to pull your mobs off at max level very much anymore.

    Seems to me it was meant to help people level in Defensive stance instead of just turning it on when they get into dungeons without really knowing what they're doing. Now they can stay in it all the time really get a good grip on how to tank.

  5. #225
    Mechagnome Lethora's Avatar
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    So many clueless dps posting here.
    Vengeance is fun for us tanks.
    It has a purpose.
    It doesn't work in pvp.
    You are not competing with tanks on dps.

    Very few % of tanks actually do stupid /sit and stand in the fire stuff. It will get fixed in 5.4 anyway.
    Why do you still complain?
    Lethora, 100 Protection Paladin, Shadowsong-EU
    Amberglow, 92 Assassination Rogue, Shadowsong-EU

  6. #226
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lethora View Post
    Very few % of tanks actually do stupid /sit and stand in the fire stuff.
    You could argue the ones who don't do that are the stupid ones.

  7. #227
    Mechagnome Lethora's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    You could argue the ones who don't do that are the stupid ones.
    You can call me stupid but I refuse to play the game this way.
    Solo-tanking is fine and fun just because I am skilled enough to do it. Staying in the shit and /sitting to get crit is just wrong. That's not how you play tank.

    Edit: and the thing is, my playstyle won't change in 5.4 at all. The ones who abused the mechanics will have to adapt.
    Lethora, 100 Protection Paladin, Shadowsong-EU
    Amberglow, 92 Assassination Rogue, Shadowsong-EU

  8. #228
    Just look at which tanks do the ridiculous amounts of damage and then look at how some of the 2ndary stats weigh for them. Specially haste.

    With more haste ...
    - Brewmasters are able to use more abilities, generate more chi and thus do more damage and have higher uptime on shuffle and other defensive abilities.
    - Paladins lower their GCD which makes it possible to cram in more ShotR and WoG between regular attacks and simply improves HP gain.
    - Druids get more Rage and thus can increase their survivability (slightly) and get more TaC procs which increases their dmg (haste weighs significantly lower for druids however than for palas and BMs)
    - DKs get increased rune regeneration, which can slightly improve survivability due to more bloodshield and slightly improve overall DPs (again no Blood DKs really do or should aim for haste)
    - Warriors get faster melee swings, which provide no rage generation or anything else that is beneficial.

    Now combine the benefits of lets say the Brewmaster which I would consider to be the best Tank currently in my own opinion, to the Warrior tank which could be arguably the worst at the moment.

    I do believe that an Agi based class which naturally already has a high amount of crit paired with an energy bar benefiting from haste, a lot of semi-passive avoidance (shuffle and elusive brew) and it's abilities greatly benefiting from AP (all dmg abilities ofc, chi wave, guard),
    compared to a str class and thus gets a bit of parry who has no real possibility to increase his damage other than with crit (which gives no defensive benefit), really has much better cards in becoming extremly powerful with vengeance.

    In conclusion let me ask you this.

    Name 1 reason to bring a bear druid over a brewmaster at the moment and i can possibly stop arguing about the imbalance in tank classes atm.

    Oh and Vengeance is out of control for that exact reason, classes that increase their dmg in order to increase their survivability as well, will go berserk with more AP.

  9. #229
    Quote Originally Posted by Lethora View Post
    So many clueless dps posting here.
    Vengeance is fun for us tanks.
    It has a purpose.
    How is it fun? You aren't doing anything different, same playstyle, you just happen to now have bigger numbers. If you turned off your damage meter, you wouldn't even notice a gameplay difference.

  10. #230
    Quote Originally Posted by godded View Post
    Just look at which tanks do the ridiculous amounts of damage and then look at how some of the 2ndary stats weigh for them. Specially haste.

    With more haste ...
    - Brewmasters are able to use more abilities, generate more chi and thus do more damage and have higher uptime on shuffle and other defensive abilities.
    - Paladins lower their GCD which makes it possible to cram in more ShotR and WoG between regular attacks and simply improves HP gain.
    - Druids get more Rage and thus can increase their survivability (slightly) and get more TaC procs which increases their dmg (haste weighs significantly lower for druids however than for palas and BMs)
    - DKs get increased rune regeneration, which can slightly improve survivability due to more bloodshield and slightly improve overall DPs (again no Blood DKs really do or should aim for haste)
    - Warriors get faster melee swings, which provide no rage generation or anything else that is beneficial.

    Now combine the benefits of lets say the Brewmaster which I would consider to be the best Tank currently in my own opinion, to the Warrior tank which could be arguably the worst at the moment.

    I do believe that an Agi based class which naturally already has a high amount of crit paired with an energy bar benefiting from haste, a lot of semi-passive avoidance (shuffle and elusive brew) and it's abilities greatly benefiting from AP (all dmg abilities ofc, chi wave, guard),
    compared to a str class and thus gets a bit of parry who has no real possibility to increase his damage other than with crit (which gives no defensive benefit), really has much better cards in becoming extremly powerful with vengeance.

    In conclusion let me ask you this.

    Name 1 reason to bring a bear druid over a brewmaster at the moment and i can possibly stop arguing about the imbalance in tank classes atm.

    Oh and Vengeance is out of control for that exact reason, classes that increase their dmg in order to increase their survivability as well, will go berserk with more AP.
    Finally, you are one of the few making sense in this topic.

    If your MT outdps you in fights where it is normally the dps'ers pulling the higher numbers either your tank is cheesing the fight or your are slacking(playing a subpar spec counts toward that as well)

    However, if your MT is forced to reroll or get benched to being a OT or going fully OS due to another tank class outdpsing him/her under the same condition by a huge margin, then that is a design issue staring at you right in the eye.

  11. #231
    Quote Originally Posted by fangless View Post
    How is it fun? You aren't doing anything different, same playstyle, you just happen to now have bigger numbers. If you turned off your damage meter, you wouldn't even notice a gameplay difference.
    You could say the exact same thing about dps.

  12. #232
    Quote Originally Posted by fangless View Post
    How is it fun? You aren't doing anything different, same playstyle, you just happen to now have bigger numbers. If you turned off your damage meter, you wouldn't even notice a gameplay difference.
    It's not.
    At some point once you have enough AP you might start shifting off some defensive away from top of priority, and it's fine.
    Does it make sense to take +5% dmg to deal +2% dmg ? No
    Does it make sense to take +5% dmg to deal + 15% dmg ? Yes

  13. #233
    Quote Originally Posted by X3non View Post
    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-3p...&e=6425#Romulo

    Let's analyze this report shall we (I picked this because he's the paladin in the top 10 of Ra-Den):

    Romeo managed to double everyone's dps, while also doing 55% of all his TOTAL HEALING. All of this while doing 98% + of his damage on Ra-Den (So we're not talking inflated DPS numbers from AoE), while also taking 99.9% damage from Ra-Den himself (Read above).

    Nope, nothing wrong with Vengeance. Move along.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-27 at 04:44 PM ----------



    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-3p...?s=6045&e=6425

    Damage taken by Ra-Den. Yup, who cares what people are doing in that silly ToT 5 man!
    I love how everyone just jumps straight to Ra-Den. You realize that is just about the only fight where you will see numbers like that? Go look at all 13 fights of ToT and see how many tanks are topping damage on.

    If you have a fight with very high damage on the tank, he will do very high dps. That is why you see quite ridiculous levels of tank dps on Ra-Den. On other fights, you really don't see this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Locruid View Post
    Vengeance is stupid. The "threat issue" isn't an issue. They can increase the threat modifier if they wanted to.

    I leveled with a friend when MOP came out. He was a Blood DK and I was a BOOMKIN. If I got more than 2 on me at 88 I was dead. I HAD to run or just soak it up and die. Him on the other hand could take 6-8 at once and come out smelling like Roses. We leveled together from 85 to 90 and his DPS was always higher than mine on top of that.

    My Fury Warrior at 50 take about 4-8 hits to kill a mob in FULL heirloom (yes even rocking Dual 2H heirlooms). MY Arms takes about the same amount of time. My Prot Spec spec takes roughly 2. Charge, Shield Slam, Revenge and it's dead. Not to mention I can also take on more mobs without worrying.

    Maybe I'm Old Scgoll but a Tank should be a Meat Shield. Like everyone tells Healers who want to do some DPS in heal spec (excluding Disc, MW) you have 2 specs, use them. Well the same should apply to Tanks. Get rid of Vengeance and "You have 2 specs use them"

    Anyways my points are moot. I quit 6 weeks ago due to gameplay changes (after playing nonstop since Beta) and I'm having a BLAST tearing up Rift now
    You are using low level stuff as an example. The game is balanced around level 90, of course you will see insane damage from even prot specs at level 50. Meanwhile, at level 90, as a prot paladin my dps is pitiful and it takes me at least twice as long to kill a mob, even more for bosses. My only advantage is that I can hold multiple mobs at once...which is kind of expected, I being a tank and all. Also, vengeance is not the reason that tanks do high damage at lower levels; the ability scaling is crap at those levels.

    It also interests me how just about everyone on these forums who quits has also been someone who played since WoW release, or even earlier with the beta as in your case. Curious.

    Quote Originally Posted by shise View Post
    The problem with tanks (Blood dk mostly) on top of the DPS metter is that... what the hell shall we play a DPS if we can just go as tank and do two jobs at the same time? And for that matter, even 3 as some heal like mad.
    Because raids still need dps. You can't take 8 tanks and 2 healers or something ridiculous. Vengeance requires incoming damage; if you start replacing dps with tanks, those extra tanks will be doing pitiful dps. As a dps, you are still needed in the raid. We need 5 or 6 of you, and only 2 tanks (1 in some cases).

    Quote Originally Posted by Stannis View Post
    It feels quite weird for an oldschool player like me to see tanks being top DPSers, expecially on AoE situations.
    I don't know why they didn't just buff base threat & generation for tank classes.
    Quote Originally Posted by RicardoZ View Post
    I don't think Vengeance is really necessary. It's easier than ever to hold threat now so it's not like that mage or rogue or hunter is going to pull your mobs off at max level very much anymore.
    All that needs to be said about this is: Threat is not the issue here at all. Read a few posts in this thread, or go roll a tank yourself, and you will see why.
    Last edited by FpicEail; 2013-07-03 at 01:55 AM.

  14. #234
    Vengeance seems like it was added because tanks had trouble keeping aggro when other players felt the need to burst the moment the pull started.
    When LFG was added, you started to get cocky ninja pullers and bursters who ignored CC (back when CC was needed, remember those days?) This caused content to become hard for LFGers, because they weren't playing properly. Like running into a room with guns blazing then realizing your enemy is a super ultra invisible techno ninja army. With knifes made out of pure fire.
    This, and many players didn't want to role tank due to the stress of being a tank around this time (queuing as tank, only to have a Shadow/Ret/Feral/Enhancement Healer and 3 happygolucky huntards, *shudder*)

    So what was Blizzards response? Remove the need for CC. Give tanks a damage increase to make them look nicer to players and help them keep threat. Cus you know... tanking wasn't easy enough with taunts on 8 second cooldowns, AoE taunts (whatever happened to those?) and naturally high threat generation.

    Vengeance is a problem, and it should just be flat out removed. I've seen most tanks be around 5th on the DPS meters in 25 mans. Why is a tank doing that much damage, why does he NEED to do that much damage?

  15. #235
    Herald of the Titans Mighty Blue Bear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snuzzfizzle View Post
    If they lowered tank damage back to Cata or even TBC levels I'd probably re-roll back to a DPS class.
    To me, playing a tank these days is a lot of fun. It's somewhat challenging and very rewarding.

    I wouldn't want my fun to get nerfed.
    They took away Bear form switching from my Feral Druid and yet I still play him.

    I for one would welcome the change.

  16. #236
    Herald of the Titans Sibut's Avatar
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    I just needed to read the first sentence of your first paragraph to figure out how well informed your opinion is. Thanks for letting me know at the beginning so I'd know enough to skip the rest of your wall of text.
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  17. #237
    Competitive DPS is one thing, but I saw a tank pull the AoE pack before Iron Qon the other day and they did 1.1m DPS...
    It's getting a little out of hand.

  18. #238
    Quote Originally Posted by FpicEail View Post
    I love how everyone just jumps straight to Ra-Den. You realize that is just about the only fight where you will see numbers like that? Go look at all 13 fights of ToT and see how many tanks are topping damage on.
    Maybe you should look at heroics, tanks are doing pretty good besides warlocks.

  19. #239
    Quote Originally Posted by Snuzzfizzle View Post
    That's basically what I'm saying.

    Tanking is usually very boring because tanks either don't get affected by certain debuffs or have to deal with mind-numbing debuffs themselves (your typical tank-swap debuff).

    If it wasn't for certain mechanics that allow you to increase your DPS I'd probably have switched classes some time ago. Because most of the time, tanking is (too) easy.
    This. The only people complaining about tank DPS are folks who have crappy DPS to begin with and get all aggravated the guy with the shield is hurting the boss more than them, and PVPers who get rumpbothered about tank specs actually being a threat to their health bars for the first time since the game began.

    Neither opinion is valid. Vengeance is fine, and keeps tanks from falling asleep and/or feeling like they could be replaced by a brick wall and nobody would notice.
    I find it utterly laughable that people are having ZERO issues with android monks, cyborg dwarves, and shadow-warping gunplay assassins, but they throw absolute FITS if you suggest a timejumping tomboy might be gay or that a walking artillery-platform might self-identify as female.
    Apparently, the superintelligent jetpack gorilla from the Moon makes perfect sense, but chrono-displaced lesbians and transgender automatons is just ridiculous!

  20. #240
    Quote Originally Posted by ChaosWolf View Post
    This. The only people complaining about tank DPS are folks who have crappy DPS to begin with and get all aggravated the guy with the shield is hurting the boss more than them, and PVPers who get rumpbothered about tank specs actually being a threat to their health bars for the first time since the game began.

    Neither opinion is valid. Vengeance is fine, and keeps tanks from falling asleep and/or feeling like they could be replaced by a brick wall and nobody would notice.
    1) I think it is an issue when tanks are often the top dps
    2) tanks don't get vengeance in pvp

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