Leveling up, tank damage can feel a little weird, but honestly that has more to do with tank specs getting access to AoEs earlier than most DPS specs and the baseline scaling on their abilities. Vengeance gain at low levels is negligible and has nothing to do with your tank out-DPSing you.
At endgame, Vengeance is a much-needed mechanic and helps make LFD/LFR queues go more easily. It's a self-correcting mechanism. If the DPS is weak, whether due to lack of gear or lack of skill, tank damage runs higher. With a group of good DPS, tank damage falls.
If the tanks are consistently out-DPSing you in LFD/LFR and are in equivalent gear, then barring a few specific fights or a situation where one tank is cutting the other out and ignoring swaps, then you need to do some research and sharpen your game, because it's not Vengeance that's overshadowing you.
out of control no...but if they do nerf it they need to completely rehaul active mitgation since it works around us having insane vengeance to heal and defend ourselves the way we do without it most tanks would be lost and would be going back to getting crushed with nothing to do to stop it.
Here is a follow up question to your own: Why does it MATTER that they do that much damage?
Vengeance does not activate in PvP at all.
i wrote in other similar thread easy ways to deal with Vengeance's problem - removing it altogether and making Stamina->AP conversion (less than when being at max Vengeance ofc, but so you wouldn't feel gimped in questing). Dodge/Parry->Hit/Exp conversion could also be done to make tanking stats more important. Voila! Vengeance problems and exploits are solved!
Last edited by Ferocity; 2013-07-05 at 02:14 AM.
Yes, it is. I long for the days of simplistic tanking where you didn't have to care about DPS and just do your rotation to keep threat going and know when to use cooldowns. I think the game went in the wrong direction in regards to tanks.
Is it nice being the only person that matters when you're tanking a PUG run (where you'd expect that others members of the group have little to no skill)? Sure. I won't deny it, it definitely is a good thing for me (and the rest of the group I'm in, mind you, at least for most groups I get) if I matter more to the run than the other 4 members combined? Is it good for the game overall? Probably not, all players need at least some incentive to improve even at the low end.
2) Between this and atonement healing is a-whole-nother topic, which I have no desire to get into here.
The original purpose of vengeance was so that tank dps scaled evenly with dps dps. At the end of Wrath, tanks were still usually doing no more than 3k dps with dps doing several times more, and because threat modifiers were nowhere near what they are today, it meant that the dps could easily generate far more threat than the tank. This problem didn't really exist at the start of the expansion because the difference between damage done by dps and tanks wasn't so huge. Vengeance was introduced so that tank damage would scale similarly - the tank would get attack power based on their health, which would scale at the same rate as a dps's damage, solving the problem.
The thing is, tanks now have 500% threat modifiers. They don't need vengeance to maintain threat at all. There's a very real case to be made for just scrapping it altogether, perhaps increasing tanks' base damage a little to compensate.
The game has been balanced around the expected vengeance levels to be gained while tanking an encounter. The amount of vengeance directly corresponds to the amount of the tank's self heals and absorbs. Simply removing this, without having an entire re-working of the balance of heals in the game would lead to an impossible raiding scenario.
Everyone is crying about the damage done by tanks with vengeance, what none of you really consider is the defensive value of vengeance and how important it really is to the balance of world of warcraft.
Just imagine, blizzard listens to retards complaining about tanks doing too much damage, so they remove vengeance, but oops, now we have to re-balance every single healer in the game.
"Fuck, now we have to re-balance them all again for PvP, because the arena kids are complaining. FUCK!!! Now we completely ruined the entire raiding environment for a full tier of content, maybe we should have thought a little bit more about it before we removed a mechanic we specifically designed to aid in class balance!"
Grow up, deal with it. And for the idiots linking ra-den logs, seriously, fuck yourselves. It's the worst example possible for the need to remove vengeance. Blame the developers for not putting more effort into designing their fucking encounters to require more than 1 tank, not the way classes are balanced.
Also, a couple comments ago you said that a tank that knows how to utilise vengeance will do more damage than the average DPS; I find this argument also to be unneeded, since we need to base our findings on the assumptions that the DPSers in question ARE of the same skill / gear level as the tank.
Imagine lets say Treckie or Slootbag against their DPSers if they didn't cheese vengeance. The only fight that their tanks would be top DPS would be cheering an encounter (letting only tanks on lei shen hc balls or sitting in void zones or just plain old sitting. They won't ever be higher than their dpsers.
Now, don't get me wrong, I still think that sitting or purposefully damaging yourself should reward you with 0 extra vengeance, but so far all your pointers to why Ve geanve is 'out of control' are not factual enough.
Also, this is off-topic, but it's surprisingly funny and sad at the same time; both times that you've replied to me you just took an opening sentence and went on ignoring everything else in the post. Well played.
Here's some "extreme bias" for you: The only fights I see on 25H where tanks are more or less nowhere near in sight are Jin'rokh and Primordius. Tell me that those are "fair fights" on behalf of the tank, with no massive DPS-boosting mechanics.
Here's some "surprisingly funny and sad" for you: I've given some arguments, objectively, as to why tanks being overly important is a bad thing. I've seen no responses nor refutations, and the only counterarguments I've seen are a mix of: "boss dies faster," "DPS need to stop crying," and "tanks should be double DPS damage because I like to feel important."
Pretty pathetic, if you ask me.
Last edited by nightfalls; 2013-07-05 at 04:37 PM.
Last edited by dryankem; 2013-07-05 at 04:45 PM.
I acknowledge that on it's face, tanks doing as much damage as they are doing may make some people feel as though they are under-perfoming, or have no way based in reality to compete with these numbers (which is true in some cases,) but really, what is the problem with it?
I have given you a direct reason why you're viewpoint is invalid, as is tradition on the internet, when someone is shown to be wrong, that person is now entitled to make a personal attack at the person who pointed out their retardation, so, flame on sir.
Also, to be fair, I have topped meters on both H Jin-rok and H Primordius, if that makes you feel worse about yourself, I apologize.
Last edited by djtravitrav; 2013-07-05 at 05:25 PM.
So yet again, I've seen no arguments. Obviously in 6.0, if they nerfed vengeance contribution to DPS they would adjust self-healing accordingly.