Is Vengeance Getting Out Of Control?

[Esploratore]

But then in MoP I started noticing that on certain fights, mostly when AoE is involved, my tank would outdps me. That pisses me off. That should never be possible I don't care if he's in heroic raid gear and I'm wearing grey boots off Hogger. Okay, bad analogy, but you get my point. Shouldn't be #*@!ing possible under normal circumstances.

Honestly, that's quite normal, at that gear difference you actually have better dps stats with say normal TOT tank gear than 463 hc dps blues.

In any case, vengeance is becoming a very important component of dps, I often do world bosses on my blood dk, 534 item level, full dps gear. For example, on galleon, I got tired of trying as frost because (unless aoeing adds which I never tried) I could never keep up with frost mages of my same item level, now I just go blood, full dps gear, tank it, 120k vengeance, 206k dps, second dps has 150k or so. I don't even take adds, could do 250-300k with them.

Blood dks are also scaling BAD with vengeance compared to other tank classes, they are the highest dps tank spec pre-vengeance if I'm right, but with vengeance, prot paladins, guardian druids and even brewmaster monks have just more survival which allows them to pull even more dps than blood dks could. Prot warriors have some limits to this due to playing with second wind, which forces them under 35% hp, but they still scale better with vengeance.

I know old content is old, but prot paladins are soloing warlord zon'ozz eating all the stacks of focused anger from start to end doing over 200k dps which a blood dk can't even do by bouncing the ball and increasing the damage taken by the boss, guardian druids are pulling all yor'sahj trash and aoeing the trash + boss down with 845k dps without even dying.

So for some tank classes, not only the damage becomes INSANE when standing in fire\pulling all, but they also have special abilities to soak them and even IMPROVE their survival.

A prot paladin soloed galleon, which even if intended for 463 item level players or so it's still a 40-man boss and hits 220-320k on a tank who isn't using cds, they have so insane vengeance from melee hits + adds that they can do the 320 millions damage in less than 15 mins while still aoeing adds.

A prot paladin soloed primordius normal in 537 item level, on asian servers, the link isn't easy to find, but this is caused once again by the vengeance which also translates in more survival.

The change coming in patch 5.4 will limit this a bit, if a tank has 800k hp, he'll have a vengeance cap of 266k in 10-man raids (was it 33% of total hp?) and 400k (was it 50% of total hp?) in 25-man, but still quite high.

Personally as a blood dk dps starts skyrocketing from 80k vengeance to higher, so this won't affect the vengeance we can reach in tanking current raids\soloing cata stuff.

[morph757]

its kinda shocking people would get upset about tanks doing good dps. it only benefits the raid. it also separates the good tank from the bad tank. as some had stated before....its hard to tell if a tank is good or not at face value cause healers and such can carry without even knowing it. but with active mitigation coming into effect, you can seperate the good from the bad for the most part if tanks are surviving and doing good dps. Honestly....nerfing vengeance would not only nerf dps but it would also nerf the tanks survival. the whole thing with active mitigation and vengeance would need to be rethought and redone if yall want it nerfed. again, why you guys want it nerfed is baffling to me. as it ONLY HELPS. it's silly to be honest. more people actually enjoy or want to tank now....that gives u more tanks on a server, that's a good thing. in cata, it would always be hard to find a tank. when I was tank, I was sought after hardcore back in cata cause nobody wanted to tank....now? people like tanking. the system is fine.

[Tenjen]

i just see this as an inherent selfishness in a situation where people feel the volume of their genitals are in question over the tanks dps comparing to theirs.

vengeance at best needs tweaking every so often JUST like all other abilities face for all other roles and classes. Adaptation to the changing environment and situations in pve. But is is essentially a good and very helpful and advantageous system for raid teams. It works better than the pure mitigation/avoidance/threat system, tanks are more participative and common (on my server atleast).

there is literally no disadvantage to dps roles other than their ego's being tarnished. They are prioritizing their own ego above the health and performance of the raid. The tank is not going to take your spot in raids, only tanks actively tanking can maintain vengeance.

[Breccia]

The problem isn't Vengeance. The problem is the ability to "game" Vengeance by doing otherwise stupid things such as standing in fire.

This is probably the best way of phrasing my opinion.

Tank damage without Vengeance doesn't scale nearly as well as DPS does. Right niow we have
-- a threat multiplier, and
-- Vengeance.

I'm a warrior tank, one of the lowest (if not THE lowest) tank damage dealers these days. Let's grab a ToT boss at random, say, Iron Qon 25N. According to Raidbots, the average warrior tank does 63k damage and the average Assassin does 130k. Between Vengeance and the current threat multiplier, we don't have an issue. I'm also doing less damage than any class/spec in the game, although admittedly (Iron Qon at least) more than half of most of them.

Now remove Vengeance. What would my damage be? My unbuffed AP is about 30k, and 10% of my max health is 65k. So, maybe half damage? Less? Now the Assassin is doing over four times the warrior tank's damage, and flirting with five times as much. Guess what happens when the Assassin does over five times the tank's damage? He pulls aggro and Iron Qon one-shots his butt.

Now look at the threat multiplier given to tanks over time.
1.3x
1.45x
3.00x
5.00x
The disparity between DPS and tanks without Vengeance was growing pretty significantly. Again, without Vengeance, a good DPS will pull threat from an average tank, even with the existing 500% threat multiplier. So should the treat multiple expand to 10x? 20x? Should threat just vanish forever? I don't think these are the answer.

Vengeance needs to be at a point where raid members aren't sitting either a high-powered dps or an average tank because the two can't be in the same raid. Assuming you believe Blizz's "bring the player, not the class" line (I said assuming!) then you need to make sure that tank threat, either from damage or from the multiplier, is good enough to handle the fights with capable damage-dealers.

Right now it is. But if you lower/remove Vengeance, one of three things will happen:
-- tank damage will get buffed without Vengeance to remain at the threat lead, which kind of defeats the purpose of removing Vengeance, or
-- the threat multiple will get buffed for each expansion that's ever existed, or
-- good players will lose raids due to inequities, get frustrated and make good players sit for no fault of their own.

Me? I like leaving Vengeance the way it is. I like feeling that I'm contributing, I like being able to take on rare elites without spending 15 minutes slowly whittling down one monster, and I like that Shield Barrier stacks with Attack Power to make it useful against raid bosses when I got my Vengeance on (because Shield Block still doesn't stop magic).

[bals]

Let's grab a ToT boss at random, say, Iron Qon 25N.

normal modes don't give you any amount of significant vengeance.

[Breccia]

normal modes don't give you any amount of significant vengeance.

Normal modes are great examples of illustrating the idea of Vengeance in the first place. Vengeance was never made for the elite tanks. Quite the opposite: it was made so an average tank could keep threat over a good DPS. Most players don't do heroic raids. Vengeance was not made purely for the elite players. Taking that feature away from most players is not going to solve any of the above-listed problems.

As I quoted, "The problem is the ability to "game" Vengeance by doing otherwise stupid things such as standing in fire." I am 100% ok with that feature being bashed down with a giant nerf-hammer. I think taking extra damage on purpose is pretty stupid, and should not be rewarded. As pointed out before, there are some ridiculously high tank damages. I don't think we should change the game based on the top 10 players on worldoflogs at the cost of everyone else. That's not fair. I completely wholeheartedly back anything that stops tanks from even considering standing in the fire to be a good idea. That's not what we're supposed to do. But leave the gains you see in 5-mans and normal modes from tanks who are "doing it right".

[MagicBanana]

Relating to leveling up in dungeons with tanks... Have you leveled a rogue yet? Definitely the most painful class to level considering you dont get any AoEs till late 70s (at least in experience when I leveled my rogue starting in wotlk and finally hitting max lv in cata and FoK being the first). It definitely makes you feel pretty useless if youre doing any dungeons :/

(Not really counting bladeflurry since its more of a cleave and not really a full on AoE ability you can just spam like arcane explosion or chain lightning)

[nightfalls]

Relating to leveling up in dungeons with tanks... Have you leveled a rogue yet? Definitely the most painful class to level considering you dont get any AoEs till late 70s (at least in experience when I leveled my rogue starting in wotlk and finally hitting max lv in cata and FoK being the first). It definitely makes you feel pretty useless if youre doing any dungeons :/

Believe me I wholeheartedly agree (as a player who has leveled every class to 80+) that the leveling experience is completely horridly fucking unequal between classes that it's pathetic, but that is another topic, and has nothing to do with this one.