Page 4 of 16 FirstFirst ...
2
3
4
5
6
14
... LastLast
  1. #61
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Rochester, NY
    Posts
    4,183
    Quote Originally Posted by celinamuna View Post
    And that is bad how ? I'm sure i can find plenty of "6 heal" fights done with 5 healers, for the same reason you just said.
    Hell, some zerg stats go for 1 tank, 1 healer , 8 dps (on 10 man). So should we also bitch and moan that healers are healing too much (or in case of disc/mistweaver actually doing damage ?)
    This is not a new concept, it was *always* better to unload anything for something else that makes the fight go by faster (extra healers on dreamwalker / tsulong)
    Just now it's actually sort of possible to do it, without creating a shit ton of annoyance for everyone in the raid.
    Right, I know that fights have and will be underhealed and undertanked. That's exactly what I brought up. The thing is, it should create annoyance. 5 healing a 6 heal fight is generally doable but it should not be easy. You should have to avoid a lot more damage as a DPS, or use your personals a lot more, to compensate for having the 5 healers despite the fact that it's generally done with 6.

    Healers should have to pump extra heals while being extra careful with mana compared to running with the proper amount, and failing to do this should result in a very annoying wipe. That's a good thing, that's why fights are designed to have 6 healers. It would be doable in 5 undergeared, but you'd have to go through hell and back for it.

    Same goes for solo tanking a fight. When done it can make enrages a lot easier to make, but your healers and tank (and DPS) should have to play a lot more carefully than by "properly" doing it with 2 tanks, and slight mistakes should result in a wipe.

    Quote Originally Posted by celinamuna View Post
    For all we know blizzard will say that for tanks parry/dodge counts as haste and crit (and make the gear actually better for tanks
    The consequence is the same, you're still getting haste and crit no matter what the name of the stat reads on the item. I mean, I always saw Vengeance and AM as a 6.0 discussion, obviously reworking the entire system at this point would take a lot of effort and break old fights.

    If we're here to discuss 5.4, well, I could care less.
    Last edited by nightfalls; 2013-06-27 at 05:22 AM.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    Right, I know that fights have and will be underhealed and undertanked. That's exactly what I brought up. The thing is, it should create annoyance. 5 healing a 6 heal fight is generally doable but it should not be easy. You should have to avoid a lot more damage as a DPS, or use your personals a lot more, to compensate for having the 5 healers despite the fact that it's generally done with 6.

    Healers should have to pump extra heals while being extra careful with mana compared to running with the proper amount, and failing to do this should result in a very annoying wipe. That's a good thing, that's why fights are designed to have 6 healers. It would be doable in 5 undergeared, but you'd have to go through hell and back for it.

    Same goes for solo tanking a fight. When done it can make enrages a lot easier to make, but your healers and tank (and DPS) should have to play a lot more carefully than by "properly" doing it with 2 tanks, and slight mistakes should result in a wipe.
    Are you saying they're not ?
    Show me any shitty tank that can solo tank a fight in ToT (let's make it H) and i'll give you a cookie.

    The entire point of solo tanking a fight (or doing w/e other veng shenanigans) is that you don't just get it by being attacked, you get it by carefully using your CD's so you don't get gibbed.
    Otherwise healers just wouldn't be able to heal you through the damage (and even if they could, that would qualify as "through hell and back" for healers).

    The consequence is the same, you're still getting haste and crit no matter what the name of the stat reads on the item. I mean, I always saw Vengeance and AM as a 6.0 discussion, obviously reworking the entire system at this point would take a lot of effort and break old fights.

    If we're here to discuss 5.4, well, I could care less.
    We don't know how that haste and mastery will affect us in 6.0
    Hell we've had it in cata, and yet i haven't seen tanks using "dps" gear (bears excluded) so their dps can go up.

    If blizzard actually wanted to make both active and passive mitigation useful they could. Make passive give 0.x of haste/crit till it's competitive but not yet superior, bam, you get to pick more mitigation for slightly smaller dmg output.
    Now you get to pick between better mitigation + better dmg vs worse mitigation + worse dmg.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    One thing I will say out loud is that dodge/parry is what is not fun as a tank. I'm in full agreement that those stats should be scrapped and a passive amount given from strength/agility.
    I'd rather see them re-emphasise those and if anything, strip DPS stats from tank gear. I agree that their passive effect is boring, but they could be redesigned to interact with active abilities instead. Last thing I want to see is tank stats gone and tanks just stack DPS stats.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Look Batman really isn't an accurate source by any means
    Quote Originally Posted by Hooked View Post
    It is a fact, not just something I made up.

  4. #64
    Bloodsail Admiral soulcrusher's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    A Black Land of Sorcery and Nameless Horror
    Posts
    1,131
    you want to nerf tank damage? remove some of the fun from the role? isnt there already a shortage of people willing to tank?

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    Right, I know that fights have and will be underhealed and undertanked. That's exactly what I brought up. The thing is, it should create annoyance. 5 healing a 6 heal fight is generally doable but it should not be easy. You should have to avoid a lot more damage as a DPS, or use your personals a lot more, to compensate for having the 5 healers despite the fact that it's generally done with 6.

    Healers should have to pump extra heals while being extra careful with mana compared to running with the proper amount, and failing to do this should result in a very annoying wipe. That's a good thing, that's why fights are designed to have 6 healers. It would be doable in 5 undergeared, but you'd have to go through hell and back for it.

    Same goes for solo tanking a fight. When done it can make enrages a lot easier to make, but your healers and tank (and DPS) should have to play a lot more carefully than by "properly" doing it with 2 tanks, and slight mistakes should result in a wipe.
    I used to solo heal ultraxion and deathwing back in cataclysm on my holy paladin (holy radiance was OP). Anything outside of perfection was a wipe and bad RNG was a wipe. It was incredibly challenging for me to do but I could pull it off so we did to finish the fights faster. If I didn't have hand of sac on the tank and be able to bubble within what seemed like a single GCD it was a wipe. But for those times when it worked it felt rewarding and the rest of the fight was smooth. Do you really think that people can just get away with using less of something without demanding more from those that remain?

    Used to solo heal Sindragosa too back when that was current content on my holy paladin. Again, bad RNG was a wipe and anything less than perfection was a wipe too. It was frustratingly fun. Had to bubble before I was supposed to in order to clear stacks? Wipe it.
    Last edited by Ragashii; 2013-06-27 at 05:31 AM.

  6. #66
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Rochester, NY
    Posts
    4,183
    Quote Originally Posted by celinamuna View Post
    Now the funny part is, that unless blizzard changed it, you don't get Veng from stuff you parried/dodged
    As far as I know you don't get anything direct, but your current stack is refreshed to full duration and you don't lose anything either.

  7. #67
    Scarab Lord ViridianWRA's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Rainbow Road
    Posts
    4,134
    Absolutely. Would like to see it capped and coefficients buffed to compensate.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by RoKPaNda View Post
    I just really don't understand why DPS care if on a few fights one tank is higher than the DPS, or higher than some of the DPS. You know that they're there because of a tank mechanic, they know it, and it's just one tank. That's the important part, it's not like you can bring 4 tanks to your raid and suddenly all 4 of them are at or near the top of the meter. It just doesn't work that.
    It bothers me when I play my tank. It bothers me when I play DPS. It even bothers me when I play my healers. It's just a nonsensical design - tanks focus on mitigation, DPS focus on damage - but the tank does as much or more (depending on context). It also flies in the face of how WoW was designed for years - tanks way down the bottom.

    It encourages tanks to use DPS gear, or maximise their vengeance. They contribute such a significant proportion of the raid's DPS that optimising the tank's damage output actually becomes a meaningful concern in a raid group. Which leads to tanks deliberately taking more damage in order to do more DPS, which is completely ass-backwards.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Look Batman really isn't an accurate source by any means
    Quote Originally Posted by Hooked View Post
    It is a fact, not just something I made up.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    As far as I know you don't get anything direct, but your current stack is refreshed to full duration and you don't lose anything either.
    If you parry/dodge for 20 seconds your dmg intake will be 0 --> poop veng.
    Unless ofcourse they changed it, which i doubt it, which means that "not getting veng" == "losing veng" (It won't go negative, but you are missing out on it)

  10. #70
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Rochester, NY
    Posts
    4,183
    Quote Originally Posted by Ragashii View Post
    I used to solo heal ultraxion and deathwing back in cataclysm on my holy paladin (holy radiance was OP). Anything outside of perfection was a wipe and bad RNG was a wipe. It was incredibly challenging for me to do but I could pull it off so we did to finish the fights faster. If I didn't have hand of sac on the tank and be able to bubble within what seemed like a single GCD it was a wipe. But for those times when it worked it felt rewarding and the rest of the fight was smooth. Do you really think that people can just get away with using less of something without demanding more from those that remain?
    So, what's your problem with adding in a cap in 6.0 again?

    (By the way, regarding 5.4 cap: That's another patchwork fix, and to be honest I'm not sure if it can or even should go through. I'm looking at much more reasonable levels of scaling with stamina, and tanks to be reworked of sorts so that their effective vengeance caps end up similar. This is not accomplished by the 5.4 cap, which I don't honestly feel is a good thing.).

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-27 at 05:33 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by celinamuna View Post
    If you parry/dodge for 20 seconds your dmg intake will be 0 --> poop veng.
    If you never got any vengeance I believe sure, but if you have a 150k stack and you parry/dodge for 20 seconds, as far as I know you will have 20 remaining seconds of 150k veng.

    I'm not sure about this, I can go verify exactly what happens now, will edit when I figure it out.

    ... annnnnnnnnnd edit. We were both wrong.

    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Avoidance will now grant Vengeance based on the average damage of the avoided NPC auto-attack, instead of just refreshing existing Vengeance.
    You will never "lose" or have "zero" veng from avoiding attacks.
    Last edited by nightfalls; 2013-06-27 at 05:34 AM.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    So, what's your problem with adding in a cap in 6.0 again?

    (By the way, regarding 5.4 cap: That's another patchwork fix, and to be honest I'm not sure if it can or even should go through. I'm looking at much more reasonable levels of scaling with stamina, and tanks to be reworked of sorts so that their effective vengeance caps end up similar. This is not accomplished by the 5.4 cap, which I don't honestly feel is a good thing.).

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-27 at 05:33 AM ----------



    If you never got any vengeance I believe sure, but if you have a 150k stack and you parry/dodge for 20 seconds, as far as I know you will have 20 remaining seconds of 150k veng.

    I'm not sure about this, I can go verify exactly what happens now, will edit when I figure it out.
    Again, i highly doubt it, but ok.

    And it's the same thing, you can't really half ass solo tank stuff, because then literally everyone would half ass solo tank and it wouldn't have been considered a 2 tank fight in the first place.

    Edit : problem being that when i'm tanking and have say 110k veng (average of most fights), i'd say that only +- 30-40k come from auto attacks (excluding dark animus little adds / horridon enrage).
    Now i'm not sure how many specials you can dodge, but it all becomes convoluted that even with ripost i wouldn't say that 100% avoidance would give more dps than the same toon with 0% avoidance.

  12. #72
    Pandaren Monk Radio's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Straya Karnt
    Posts
    1,944
    Quote Originally Posted by celinamuna View Post
    If you parry/dodge for 20 seconds your dmg intake will be 0 --> poop veng.
    Unless ofcourse they changed it, which i doubt it, which means that "not getting veng" == "losing veng" (It won't go negative, but you are missing out on it)
    Vengeance is a proportion of damage taken before all avoidance and mitigation is taken into account, if it didn't take dodges and parries into account you'd find monks and druids wayyyy further down the DPS charts.

    I've dodged/parried all boss attacks for over 20 seconds and still gained a high vengeance stack.

    The design is intended that vengeance scales with the content, and assuming that two different tank classes tank the same boss and are exposed to the same avoidable/non-avoidable damage, they will have the exact same vengeance intake.

  13. #73
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Rochester, NY
    Posts
    4,183
    Ok, so I guess back on topic, since the solo tanking was sort of a side-track. In what way does my proposed cap make solo tanking "overly punitive" compared to just "punitive" and should there be such a thing as "overly punitive" when it comes to using less than an intended number of tanks (or healers at that).

    problem being that when i'm tanking and have say 110k veng (average of most fights), i'd say that only +- 30-40k come from auto attacks (excluding dark animus little adds / horridon enrage).
    I just confirmed that avoidance doesn't equal "zero vengeance" but I'm not sure how specials work into the calculation. I do know that some tank theorycrafters have formulas/results for this though. If your'e curious, perhaps we can look for a druid tank specialist, they probably will know how vengeance works with avoidance best.
    Last edited by nightfalls; 2013-06-27 at 05:44 AM. Reason: italics "probably" read easier than bold

  14. #74
    High Overlord
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    The Bluegrass State
    Posts
    132
    What would some of you who are vehemently defending think of this idea for the next expansion?

    • Set all active mitigation cooldowns that scale with AP to instead scale with Stam or Str. (Encounters would of course be balanced around NOT having an enormous Word of Glory to throw on yourself all the time)
    • Change attack scaling to give tanks, on average, DPS equal to 1/2 - 3/4 of an average, equally geared DPS spec. (DPS does 200k, equally geared / skilled tank does 100k - 150k)
    • Dramatically lower or remove the 500% passive threat boost that trivializes keeping aggro.
    • Change Vengeance to, when you take damage, increase your threat for 10 seconds by one half of the percent of damage you took. It would stack with itself. (Example - you have 100k health and get hit for 30k. You gain a stacking 15% threat boost for 10 seconds. You get some good avoidance and get hit 6 seconds later for 10k. You gain an additional 5% threat, 20% total bonus threat, for next 4 seconds until the 15% fades, leaving you with 5% bonus threat for an additional 6 seconds, or until you take another hit. It sounds a little confusing when I write it out like that, but it makes sense in my head...)
    • Make threat matter again. With the lower damage, losing aggro to a DPS may actually happen. *gasp horror gasp* Separate the good tanks from the bad with threat. Good tanks know when to use their best threat abilities while having a high vengeance percent. Bad tanks struggle to keep aggro against competitive DPS.
    • Make active mitigation matter more. With the removal of AP from Vengeance, tanks would have no real reason to want to get hit, giving active mitigation a more important role.
    • Lastly, throw in some more engaging tanking mechanics other than "Drag boss here at such and such time," or "Tank swap at four stack of X debuff."

    These are just some ideas I came up with on the fly (the vengeance / threat is iffy), but what do the staunch defenders of Tanks doing DPS level DPS think of this? It seems most of the Vengeance supporters like doing good damage. They think that the fun part of being a tank is doing good damage. What if the fun part was actually about keeping threat and staying alive, you know...the things a tank is supposed to do?

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Radio View Post
    Vengeance is a proportion of damage taken before all avoidance and mitigation is taken into account, if it didn't take dodges and parries into account you'd find monks and druids wayyyy further down the DPS charts.

    I've dodged/parried all boss attacks for over 20 seconds and still gained a high vengeance stack.

    The design is intended that vengeance scales with the content, and assuming that two different tank classes tank the same boss and are exposed to the same avoidable/non-avoidable damage, they will have the exact same vengeance intake.
    It was already clarified on the top, last i've remembered it didn't i guess i missed that change (due to not playing monk/druid), however unless it also accounts for specials (ie ji-kun's talon rake) it's still < veng than if you would've gotten hit by it.

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    So, what's your problem with adding in a cap in 6.0 again?

    (By the way, regarding 5.4 cap: That's another patchwork fix, and to be honest I'm not sure if it can or even should go through. I'm looking at much more reasonable levels of scaling with stamina, and tanks to be reworked of sorts so that their effective vengeance caps end up similar. This is not accomplished by the 5.4 cap, which I don't honestly feel is a good thing.)
    My problem with that cap is that tanks will still do whatever they can to reach the cap. It's silly to put a cap on it because then people feel the NEED to always be at that cap. It's like with valor points, people feel like they have to cap every week when they really don't have to. The entire reason they added vengence was so that tanks could keep up with the DPS in the raid threat-wise. But then they took out threat management all together. A tank shouldn't put out big numbers, everything they do should be about taking the least amount of damage possible. Vengeance just contradicts everything it means to be a tank the way it currently is, and will still do so after it is hard capped. Even if you get 90% of your max vengeance just from tanking the boss people will still feel the need to get that last 10%.

    Basically I think a tank should be about taking as little damage as possible and not about trying to min/max DPS. That is the entire reason DPS specs exist in the first place.

  17. #77
    The biggest problem I see with vengence atm is how much you get awarded for standing in "bad stuff" due to it. I personally think its alot of fun compeating with the other dpsers (yes I play monk tank and concider myself as a dpser) but when it comes to the point of it being beneficial for the raid with having the tank standing in stuff that is intended to avoid then obviously there is something wrong.

    My idea of a fix is blizzard removing vengence gain from certain boss mechanics, that would remove the really inflated numbers. They would probably have to redo the vengence formula if they fallow the same trend in t15>t16 as t14>t15 though sence the amount of vengence just from boss auto attacks from tier 14 to 15 is not even comparable.
    Main: Monk

    Alt: Pally

  18. #78
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Rochester, NY
    Posts
    4,183
    Quote Originally Posted by ATron52 View Post
    [*]Set all active mitigation cooldowns that scale with AP to instead scale with Stam or Str. (Encounters would of course be balanced around NOT having an enormous Word of Glory to throw on yourself all the time)
    That makes no difference. AP is simply a convenient "all-inclusive" way to handle class scaling with strength and perhaps other % based modifiers. It's a simple base stat.

    Quote Originally Posted by ATron52 View Post
    Change attack scaling to give tanks, on average, DPS equal to 1/2 - 3/4 of an average, equally geared DPS spec. (DPS does 200k, equally geared / skilled tank does 100k - 150k)
    "Average" tank damage is probably lower in general than DPS damage. It's also not a very interesting number esp. with tanks. What's the high and low ends of each?

    Quote Originally Posted by ATron52 View Post
    Dramatically lower or remove the 500% passive threat boost that trivializes keeping aggro. Make threat matter again. With the lower damage, losing aggro to a DPS may actually happen. *gasp horror gasp* Separate the good tanks from the bad with threat. Good tanks know when to use their best threat abilities while having a high vengeance percent. Bad tanks struggle to keep aggro against competitive DPS.
    No, just no. There are multiple issues with this and those were why the 500% threat was added in the first place. Ironically DPS probably hate this more than tanks doing high damage in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by ATron52 View Post
    Make active mitigation matter more. With the removal of AP from Vengeance, tanks would have no real reason to want to get hit, giving active mitigation a more important role.
    Active mitigation already matters a lot, more than most things. If you can't handle active mitigation you'll be hard pressed tanking even a normal let alone heroic raid, let alone solo tanking anything as brought up by others.

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    Ok, so I guess back on topic, since the solo tanking was sort of a side-track. In what way does my proposed cap make solo tanking "overly punitive" compared to just "punitive" and should there be such a thing as "overly punitive" when it comes to using less than an intended number of tanks (or healers at that).
    That there's 0 benefit. If you bring in less healers --> less overheal --> more effective healing (by %)
    Bring in less tanks --> ??? More damage taken ???

    (Obviously both choices allow to bring an extra dps, but normally on it's own, it's not worth the hustle)


    I just confirmed that avoidance doesn't equal "zero vengeance" but I'm not sure how specials work into the calculation. I do know that some tank theorycrafters have formulas/results for this though. If your'e curious, perhaps we can look for a druid tank specialist, they probably will know how vengeance works with avoidance best.
    To be honest, if people don't lose anything from dodge/parry that's great, means it's even easier to balance out with haste/mastery (if blizzard actually wanted to)

    Quote Originally Posted by ATron52 View Post
    What would some of you who are vehemently defending think of this idea for the next expansion?

    These are just some ideas I came up with on the fly (the vengeance / threat is iffy), but what do the staunch defenders of Tanks doing DPS level DPS think of this? It seems most of the Vengeance supporters like doing good damage. They think that the fun part of being a tank is doing good damage. What if the fun part was actually about keeping threat and staying alive, you know...the things a tank is supposed to do?
    "Dead dps does 0 dps" also applies to tanks.

  20. #80
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Rochester, NY
    Posts
    4,183
    Quote Originally Posted by Ragashii View Post
    Basically I think a tank should be about taking as little damage as possible and not about trying to min/max DPS. That is the entire reason DPS specs exist in the first place.
    In principle I can agree with this, but I still think tanks should do some level of damage. Tank DPS was also a thing before uncapped vengeance also. Having a reasonable non-trivial amount does make tanking a lot more engaging. Just having 3x DPS spec damage is "not needed" and only marginalizes DPS.

    Quote Originally Posted by celinamuna View Post
    Bring in less tanks --> ??? More damage taken ???.
    Why not? Scenario 1: Tank has 16 adds. Scenario 2: Tank 1 has 8 adds, Tank 2 has 8 adds. Reasonably you'd imagine less total damage goes out from Scenario 2, not even less damage per tank. Handling 8 adds is a lot easier than handling 16.
    Last edited by nightfalls; 2013-06-27 at 05:52 AM.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •