you want to nerf tank damage? remove some of the fun from the role? isnt there already a shortage of people willing to tank?
Used to solo heal Sindragosa too back when that was current content on my holy paladin. Again, bad RNG was a wipe and anything less than perfection was a wipe too. It was frustratingly fun. Had to bubble before I was supposed to in order to clear stacks? Wipe it.
Last edited by Ragashii; 2013-06-27 at 05:31 AM.
Absolutely. Would like to see it capped and coefficients buffed to compensate.
Blackrock Foundry was probably the best part of WOD, but that's really just a blackhanded compliment.
It encourages tanks to use DPS gear, or maximise their vengeance. They contribute such a significant proportion of the raid's DPS that optimising the tank's damage output actually becomes a meaningful concern in a raid group. Which leads to tanks deliberately taking more damage in order to do more DPS, which is completely ass-backwards.
(By the way, regarding 5.4 cap: That's another patchwork fix, and to be honest I'm not sure if it can or even should go through. I'm looking at much more reasonable levels of scaling with stamina, and tanks to be reworked of sorts so that their effective vengeance caps end up similar. This is not accomplished by the 5.4 cap, which I don't honestly feel is a good thing.).
---------- Post added 2013-06-27 at 05:33 AM ----------
I'm not sure about this, I can go verify exactly what happens now, will edit when I figure it out.
... annnnnnnnnnd edit. We were both wrong.
You will never "lose" or have "zero" veng from avoiding attacks.Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
Last edited by nightfalls; 2013-06-27 at 05:34 AM.
And it's the same thing, you can't really half ass solo tank stuff, because then literally everyone would half ass solo tank and it wouldn't have been considered a 2 tank fight in the first place.
Edit : problem being that when i'm tanking and have say 110k veng (average of most fights), i'd say that only +- 30-40k come from auto attacks (excluding dark animus little adds / horridon enrage).
Now i'm not sure how many specials you can dodge, but it all becomes convoluted that even with ripost i wouldn't say that 100% avoidance would give more dps than the same toon with 0% avoidance.
I've dodged/parried all boss attacks for over 20 seconds and still gained a high vengeance stack.
The design is intended that vengeance scales with the content, and assuming that two different tank classes tank the same boss and are exposed to the same avoidable/non-avoidable damage, they will have the exact same vengeance intake.
Ok, so I guess back on topic, since the solo tanking was sort of a side-track. In what way does my proposed cap make solo tanking "overly punitive" compared to just "punitive" and should there be such a thing as "overly punitive" when it comes to using less than an intended number of tanks (or healers at that).
I just confirmed that avoidance doesn't equal "zero vengeance" but I'm not sure how specials work into the calculation. I do know that some tank theorycrafters have formulas/results for this though. If your'e curious, perhaps we can look for a druid tank specialist, they probably will know how vengeance works with avoidance best.problem being that when i'm tanking and have say 110k veng (average of most fights), i'd say that only +- 30-40k come from auto attacks (excluding dark animus little adds / horridon enrage).
Last edited by nightfalls; 2013-06-27 at 05:44 AM. Reason: italics "probably" read easier than bold
What would some of you who are vehemently defending think of this idea for the next expansion?
- Set all active mitigation cooldowns that scale with AP to instead scale with Stam or Str. (Encounters would of course be balanced around NOT having an enormous Word of Glory to throw on yourself all the time)
- Change attack scaling to give tanks, on average, DPS equal to 1/2 - 3/4 of an average, equally geared DPS spec. (DPS does 200k, equally geared / skilled tank does 100k - 150k)
- Dramatically lower or remove the 500% passive threat boost that trivializes keeping aggro.
- Change Vengeance to, when you take damage, increase your threat for 10 seconds by one half of the percent of damage you took. It would stack with itself. (Example - you have 100k health and get hit for 30k. You gain a stacking 15% threat boost for 10 seconds. You get some good avoidance and get hit 6 seconds later for 10k. You gain an additional 5% threat, 20% total bonus threat, for next 4 seconds until the 15% fades, leaving you with 5% bonus threat for an additional 6 seconds, or until you take another hit. It sounds a little confusing when I write it out like that, but it makes sense in my head...)
- Make threat matter again. With the lower damage, losing aggro to a DPS may actually happen. *gasp horror gasp* Separate the good tanks from the bad with threat. Good tanks know when to use their best threat abilities while having a high vengeance percent. Bad tanks struggle to keep aggro against competitive DPS.
- Make active mitigation matter more. With the removal of AP from Vengeance, tanks would have no real reason to want to get hit, giving active mitigation a more important role.
- Lastly, throw in some more engaging tanking mechanics other than "Drag boss here at such and such time," or "Tank swap at four stack of X debuff."
These are just some ideas I came up with on the fly (the vengeance / threat is iffy), but what do the staunch defenders of Tanks doing DPS level DPS think of this? It seems most of the Vengeance supporters like doing good damage. They think that the fun part of being a tank is doing good damage. What if the fun part was actually about keeping threat and staying alive, you know...the things a tank is supposed to do?
Basically I think a tank should be about taking as little damage as possible and not about trying to min/max DPS. That is the entire reason DPS specs exist in the first place.
The biggest problem I see with vengence atm is how much you get awarded for standing in "bad stuff" due to it. I personally think its alot of fun compeating with the other dpsers (yes I play monk tank and concider myself as a dpser) but when it comes to the point of it being beneficial for the raid with having the tank standing in stuff that is intended to avoid then obviously there is something wrong.
My idea of a fix is blizzard removing vengence gain from certain boss mechanics, that would remove the really inflated numbers. They would probably have to redo the vengence formula if they fallow the same trend in t15>t16 as t14>t15 though sence the amount of vengence just from boss auto attacks from tier 14 to 15 is not even comparable.
Bring in less tanks --> ??? More damage taken ???
(Obviously both choices allow to bring an extra dps, but normally on it's own, it's not worth the hustle)
To be honest, if people don't lose anything from dodge/parry that's great, means it's even easier to balance out with haste/mastery (if blizzard actually wanted to)I just confirmed that avoidance doesn't equal "zero vengeance" but I'm not sure how specials work into the calculation. I do know that some tank theorycrafters have formulas/results for this though. If your'e curious, perhaps we can look for a druid tank specialist, they probably will know how vengeance works with avoidance best.
Last edited by nightfalls; 2013-06-27 at 05:52 AM.
And complaining about gimmic fights (granted we had a lot more of them this tier than last) is same as complaining about dps on gimmick fight.
I mean in most fights i can see tanks doing ~ dps to an equally skilled and gear dps.
Because depending on the fight you can generally find a benefit from switching out a healer for a dps, or a dps for a healers, or a dps for a tank (dark animus comes to mind).Why not? Scenario 1: Tank has 16 adds. Scenario 2: Tank 1 has 8 adds, Tank 2 has 8 adds. Reasonably you'd imagine less total damage goes out from Scenario 2, not even less damage per tank. Handling 8 adds is a lot easier than handling 16.
But w/o the "higher than normal" veng there's going to be 0 benefit from switching out a tank (outside of slightly more dps)
I never see tanks as top dps in lfr or normal(other than AoE, which is acceptable), and as soon as a tank can beat an equally geared, equally competent dps, then it will need a nerf. For now though, it is fine how it is.