I Don't think tanks should be competing with DPS classes for damage output. If you drop their dps down lower tanks can still challenge each other for dps and can still min-max it if they want, but they shouldn't really be beating actual DPS classes IMO.
Much like when I leveld my disc priest and once I got atonement I was topping healing and damage meters while leveling - its just not right! =p
Vengeance isn't really a "fun" mechanic, you're just doing more damage because you get hit more. You aren't switching to a DPS rotation for some phase, and hitting a lot of cooldowns.
It's just a passive thing that suddenly makes you do 700k dps on trash/bosses -_-
Also part of the reason why dodge/parry are basically avoided, as tanking stats. Which is absolutely hilarious.
And the fact that it helps killing bosses quicker is totally skipped, heh.
I highly doubt Vengeance has increased the amount of tanks, the issue was never that people didn't find it fun, as a tank yourself you should know what it's like to sign up for a random dungeon alone and run with such people. The way those people treat you, if you don't already know exactly how to tank, is why lots of people who could tank choose not to, and why lots of people who try tanking give it up for a much easier role, DPS. But this wasn't the subject of the topic and I'm derailing the thread, so I'll try to get back on topic.
DPS should of course have healing CD's but they should never out heal a healer, they should never be anywhere near the top of healing. Just as a tank never should be at the top of DPS.
A tank should do half the dps of the worst damage dealer of the raid. As a tank, I truely hope they will nerf tanks dps to the ground, and work on the aggro so it isn't something that doesnt even exist.
You want to dps ? Play a damage dealer.
Considering the MASSIVE tank shortage it's really stupid to ask for them being nerfed. Really, really stupid.
I was incorrect about the 25 % change, but not far off, here's the quote from GC:
"Going to try Vengeance cap at 30% health (down from 100%) in 10s and 50% of health in 25s. This is a big change, so might be 5.4, not 5.3."
Last edited by Lora Twinblade; 2013-06-27 at 02:37 PM.
In this game in it's current state, complaining about the tank out damaging you is the last thing you should be concerned about.
a few points:
1. Dying as a tank is nearly impossible in the current raiding tier, as long as you are a skillful player. There is no reason not to gear for optimum dps. The old ideology around tanking during the vanilla-cata era is gone completely. It's a new game now, as long as you know what you're doing, you live through every boss mechanic.
2. There are no longer "dedicated tank healers" such as the holy paladin circa BC to ICC. Much of the healing a tank receives now is self supplied, paladin seal of insight, brewmaster guard/expel harm, death knight blood shield/death strike. The higher the vengeance, the more potent your self heals/absorbs are. To redesign vengeance, the developers would be required to redesign the way all of the healers heal YET AGAIN
3. There is satisfaction received when you min/max your character and know precisely which boss mechanics you can abuse to gain the most attack power to assist your raid to the fullest.
4. The proposed changes in 5.4 aren't even going to affect tanks in any real way. "Going to try Vengeance cap at 30% health (down from 100%) in 10s and 50% of health in 25s. This is a big change, so might be 5.4, not 5.3." First of all, the highest %health vengeance I have ever seen was on council, standing in sandstorm the entire encounter while tanking Sul+frost king+priest bitch, and the highest it went was 41% in 25man. Solo tanking Iron Qon heroic on 10m I got up to 28% vengeance at the highest. The 10m cap is much more realistic than the 25m cap is that they are proposing. But neither will really have an effect.
There is a massive difference between the average tank (someone who doesn't really know any better, or thinks in the old traditional way "oh, my only job here is to not die, I don't have to be responsible for anything other than that" and someone like me who has multiple world rank 1 parses as both Prot paladin and Brewmaster. People like me aren't even playing the same game as the people who do just the bare minimum to survive.
Last edited by djtravitrav; 2013-06-27 at 02:45 PM.
Of course it's out of control and it has been for a long long while. Out of all the threads concerning Vengeance that I've read, there has not been an actual legit "reason" Tanks have proposed as to why Vengeance is tuned/balanced.
You get to pull the same numbers as a DPS class for doing what exactly, standing and taking hits?...something Tanks should be doing anyway? I understand pulling big numbers is satisfying, hell I play a Hunter and alt a Rogue, but when Hybrid DPS -AND- Tanks can pull ahead of Pure DPS classes, something is wrong. And you have to be all sorts of delusional to not admit it.
What happens if Pure DPS classes get a buff like Vengeace? 2% of the damage we do gets added as AP/RAP? When the numbers DPS pulls far outshines Tank DPS would you honestly give a shit about Vengeance then?
You wouldn't, admit it. Tanks are only defending it so wholeheartedly because it IS broken and does need fixing.
2: That's fine I guess, but it doesn't mean that tanks should focus on dealing more damage rather than taking less damage. The more damage the tank manage to soak up the more healers can focus on other things, that should be the tanks priority, not to start focusing on beating the berserk timer.
3: Yeah, no... Satisfaction from abusing the mechanics to gain attack power? This is exactly what's wrong with vengeance, and even Ghostcrawler hinted on this very thing...
4: A tanks responsibility should be more than to just not die, their job is to protect the group, thus their responsibility is to keep them alive...
i don't like the "lol i jump in voids with deff cooldowns for more dmg" part
but i do like the "i'm not afk and it matters what i press for dps/heal" as a tank
they schould just remove some spells like void zones etc from the "u get vengeance" to "move out there sucker you won't get anything out of it"
good tanks do good dps, hardly a problem when i see our deffpala #1 in dps .)
My comment was about this topic when this argument is avoided in most cases.
Do I want my dps matter? Yes I do. But I don't need it to be on top. For good tank 70% of good dps would be good enough. Vengeance just need some reworking because right now nerfing vengeance would nerf survival as well.
I think the nerf will do it alone, but imo tanks should be doing about half of the damage they do now. If it would cause them to lose aggro, then buff the threat modifier of all attacks. It's just unreal to see tanks topping dps during every fight, especially aoe :P
They have already implemented with the new heroic scenarios which were released a change in the way enemy ground aoe/dmg abilities affect vengeance, and to put it simply, they don't add to vengeance. I'm sure they will do the same with siege of orgrimmar boss fights as well. The only way possible to reach those levels of vengeance anyway is to be standing in shit and chaining cds.
and to chaozu, who doesn't seem to know what he's talking about, as a tank, the more damage you take, the more you are capable of preventing and healing. You really need to comprehend how attack power affects a tanks heals and absorbs and not just say the same old nonsense such as this gem "A tanks responsibility should be more than to just not die, their job is to protect the group, thus their responsibility is to keep them alive..."
You completely miss the entire point of raiding in this expansion. The highest responsibility for staying alive as the tank is yours alone. No longer are we COMPLETELY reliant on a healer to survive. A combined effort of the entire healing team provides somewhere between 40%-60% of the tank healing where the tank him/herself provides the other 60%-40%, numbers of course are entirely dependent on which boss fight it is and levels of vengeance.
So, no, you can't fucking do away with vengeance without completely reworking the entire balance of healing in the game. Every tank class was changed to active mitigation with MoP, and every tank was handed the responsibility to survive on their own with this new design. Vengeance is the only thing that makes this development model possible.
The game is better for it, it's really as simple as that, if you don't like seeing a tank ahead of you in damage, play more optimally. Maybe even line up your cooldowns and potions with bloodlust once in a while, you may see a performance increase.