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  1. #161
    The Lightbringer Kuja's Avatar
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    I think the nerf will do it alone, but imo tanks should be doing about half of the damage they do now. If it would cause them to lose aggro, then buff the threat modifier of all attacks. It's just unreal to see tanks topping dps during every fight, especially aoe :P

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  2. #162
    They have already implemented with the new heroic scenarios which were released a change in the way enemy ground aoe/dmg abilities affect vengeance, and to put it simply, they don't add to vengeance. I'm sure they will do the same with siege of orgrimmar boss fights as well. The only way possible to reach those levels of vengeance anyway is to be standing in shit and chaining cds.

    and to chaozu, who doesn't seem to know what he's talking about, as a tank, the more damage you take, the more you are capable of preventing and healing. You really need to comprehend how attack power affects a tanks heals and absorbs and not just say the same old nonsense such as this gem "A tanks responsibility should be more than to just not die, their job is to protect the group, thus their responsibility is to keep them alive..."

    You completely miss the entire point of raiding in this expansion. The highest responsibility for staying alive as the tank is yours alone. No longer are we COMPLETELY reliant on a healer to survive. A combined effort of the entire healing team provides somewhere between 40%-60% of the tank healing where the tank him/herself provides the other 60%-40%, numbers of course are entirely dependent on which boss fight it is and levels of vengeance.

    So, no, you can't fucking do away with vengeance without completely reworking the entire balance of healing in the game. Every tank class was changed to active mitigation with MoP, and every tank was handed the responsibility to survive on their own with this new design. Vengeance is the only thing that makes this development model possible.

    The game is better for it, it's really as simple as that, if you don't like seeing a tank ahead of you in damage, play more optimally. Maybe even line up your cooldowns and potions with bloodlust once in a while, you may see a performance increase.

  3. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by dasmiez View Post
    Considering the MASSIVE tank shortage it's really stupid to ask for them being nerfed. Really, really stupid.
    I just don't understand when it became OK for something to be unbalanced just because there aren't many of them. The solution to the tank shortage is not to have tanks do more DPS, but to make tanking more fun. Doing more DPS is fun, sure, but it erodes away the barrier between tanks and DPS. Equally geared tanks in normal modes right now, even on two tank fights that don't have a stupid amount of tank damage, is still right at or just below a decent DPS. That's too high, in my opinion, especially since during the first six years of the game it was normal to do half.

    I'm not saying to take it back to Vanilla or BC. I am saying that it can "feel" weird to have someone who specializes in getting hit and taking low damage beat someone who specializes in dealing damage, except for on a select few gimmick fights. If they tone down tank damage in the next expansion, bosses will be balanced around that. Mitigation will be balanced around that. People need to stop acting like we're demanding vengeance disappear in 5.4 - absolutely not. It would be detrimental to the balance of the game. But, 6.0 would be a perfect opportunity to change it.

    Yes, high tank damage makes bosses die quicker - I get that - but keeping having them do absurd damage simply to make it more "fun" and to entice more people into playing a tank doesn't fix the issue. You're treating the symptoms of having few tanks, not the actual problem. If they were to make tanking more fun and engaging without doing silly amounts of damage, I have no doubt that we could get more people into rolling tanks.

    Balancing classes based around fun, which is a purely subjective thing, seems silly. It doing high DPS while doing your job is "fun," are we then to expect Resto druids, Resto Shaman, and Holy Priests to gain some form of DPS healing? Tons of people find Eminence and Atonement healing fun, so why not have all healers heal through dealing damage, just for funsies. I realize that that is an extreme example, but the base thought remains the same.

    Again, I'm not trying to whine because DPS are getting beat by tanks. I'm trying to point out that it's "weird" for tanks to do so much damage when they already have the most important job in a raid or group. Why should tanks be even more of a "special snowflake" than they already are, when the group's success already depends on them to know the basic mechanics of boss fight, when to taunt swap, when adds show up, where to tank boss, when to use cooldowns, which cooldown to use (Savage Defense vs. Frenzied Regen for example), and to minimize damage taken. They have a lot on the plate in terms of knowing how to play and playing well, and I agree that there should be a reward for doing your job well. Out DPSing 3/4 of your raid though, shouldn't be that reward. Being able to keep aggro on multiple mobs, require less heals than other tanks, having great avoidance / mitigation - wouldn't those work as a reward for being the cornerstone of a group or raid?

  4. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by djtravitrav View Post
    ...
    Maybe even line up your cooldowns and potions with bloodlust once in a while, you may see a performance increase.
    yes lol, the people in this raid should just play better, and then they can do more dps than the tank. we're so silly for not thinking of that guys.


    the people that are worrying about bosses being balanced around this ridiculous tank damage are narrow minded and short sighted. i'm not asking for tanks to just recieve a flat nerf to the current damage. i'm asking for tanks to have their damage nerfed in proportion to what dps classes are capable of. the tank's damage should be a nonfactor in enrage timers. I'm okay with a tank doing 75% of a skilled dps player's damage, or even 95% but not 2-5 times as much damage.


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  5. #165
    Guess you should have played a brewmaster solo tanking ra-den with almost perfectly itemized best in slot gear and 70% crit raidbuffed if you wanted to look better on the meters or something?

    Ridiculous example, and probably the only instance this entire expansion which would ACTUALLY be affected by a 50% vengeance cap in 25m.

    But grats to that player for that rank, it is an impressive performance.

  6. #166
    Quote Originally Posted by Okacz View Post
    Okay, you can argue that it's getting out of control, but come on. It's not like Prot tanks are being seated despite the fact they are geared and take small damage, but because their damage is low... Oh wait, thats exactly what is happening.

    WoW has 3 easy to distinguish roles - tank, healer, dps. No hybrids, no "controllers", nothing like that, just 3 roles. If one role is overwhelming another, it's starting to be a problem. Some roles can perform a little as other, but just a little. Fury warrior can save the team some time by going Def Stance after a tank dies, buying time before the tank is ressed - so he performs A LITTLE as a tank. Windwalker Monk can, thanks to his talents, help out in healing - so he performs A LITTLE as a healer. BM monk does more dps than any other dps in the raid (Horridon, for example) - now you see a problem?
    That makes no sense because you can't have more then 2/3 tanks in 10/25 anyway, so your logic is flawed.

  7. #167
    Oh no, the tank is doing more damage than a DPS player.. are you competing with the tank? Nope, so who cares.

    The tank is part of your raid and you should be happy that their role is now more enjoyable.

  8. #168

  9. #169
    Herald of the Titans Grimord's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kerdoz View Post
    So basicly you think the "fun" part of playing a tank is to do alot of damage?

    Yes it needs a nerf. It is insanly strong.
    Just because tanks now break the tradition of doing shit damage doesn't mean it's broken. It's different. We press buttons same as you do, yet we carry the little extra of being hit in the face all of the time. Why can't tanks do competitive DPS in PvE?

    "Tanks just want to do DPS to boost their ego!"

    Yea, just like DPSers just want tank damage nerfed so they boost theirs...


  10. #170
    Makes sense if the tank does most damage anyway, then they're actually being targeted by the boss as the most 'dangerous' character.

    Stupid bosses hitting a meatshield doing 2k dps never made sense when you had glass cannons standing beside him who would die in one hit.

  11. #171
    Quote Originally Posted by ZenX View Post
    Just because you are a terrible dps does not deem tanks OP.
    Yup, i couldnt agree more with this. All those DPS that are in guilds doing Ra-Den are so bad! Top end guilds really need to re-think their recruitment patterns! How stupid of them to recruit people who get outdamaged by tanks!

    Care to post your armory and some WoL reports so all the people in these pseudo-prestigious guilds can learn from you?
    Last edited by X3non; 2013-06-27 at 04:18 PM.

  12. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by Vasilisa View Post
    If you've read my previous posts you'd know that I'm not against toning it down to 30/50%. I'm against nerfing it to the ground and making tank dps not matter. Thought I still believe that vengeance nerf is not the perfect way, mechanic that punished the tanks taking unnecessary dmg on purpose. Though I'm yet to think about it :P

    My comment was about this topic when this argument is avoided in most cases.

    Do I want my dps matter? Yes I do. But I don't need it to be on top. For good tank 70% of good dps would be good enough. Vengeance just need some reworking because right now nerfing vengeance would nerf survival as well.
    Aye it needs a rework, I don't want to see the tanks survival nerfed just because their damage is high. But I still dislike the idea of a tank seeking out to take more damage to deal more damage, it's illogical. If anything they could get a boost in damage for successfully avoiding damage, see it as a reward of sorts for playing well. But even then it shouldn't be more damage than the actual DPS in the group.

  13. #173
    Quote Originally Posted by X3non View Post
    Yup, i couldnt agree more with this. All those DPS that are in guilds doing Ra-Den are so bad! Top end guilds really need to re-think their recruitment patterns! How stupid of them to recruit people who get outdamaged by tanks!

    Care to post your armory and some WoL reports so all the people in these pseudo-prestigious guilds can learn from you?
    pretty much exactly 100% this.


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  14. #174
    Quote Originally Posted by djtravitrav View Post
    They have already implemented with the new heroic scenarios which were released a change in the way enemy ground aoe/dmg abilities affect vengeance, and to put it simply, they don't add to vengeance. I'm sure they will do the same with siege of orgrimmar boss fights as well. The only way possible to reach those levels of vengeance anyway is to be standing in shit and chaining cds.

    and to chaozu, who doesn't seem to know what he's talking about, as a tank, the more damage you take, the more you are capable of preventing and healing. You really need to comprehend how attack power affects a tanks heals and absorbs and not just say the same old nonsense such as this gem "A tanks responsibility should be more than to just not die, their job is to protect the group, thus their responsibility is to keep them alive..."

    You completely miss the entire point of raiding in this expansion. The highest responsibility for staying alive as the tank is yours alone. No longer are we COMPLETELY reliant on a healer to survive. A combined effort of the entire healing team provides somewhere between 40%-60% of the tank healing where the tank him/herself provides the other 60%-40%, numbers of course are entirely dependent on which boss fight it is and levels of vengeance.

    So, no, you can't fucking do away with vengeance without completely reworking the entire balance of healing in the game. Every tank class was changed to active mitigation with MoP, and every tank was handed the responsibility to survive on their own with this new design. Vengeance is the only thing that makes this development model possible.

    The game is better for it, it's really as simple as that, if you don't like seeing a tank ahead of you in damage, play more optimally. Maybe even line up your cooldowns and potions with bloodlust once in a while, you may see a performance increase.
    I rarely see the tanks topping the damage, I can't even think of a fight in ToT that they do, except possibly with the bats on Tortos.

    It seems to me that it's you who doesn't seem to understand what it is that I'm saying, rather than me not knowing what it is I say. I'm not talking about this expansion, or this tier, specifically as you are. I'm talking about the way tanks should be, in general, now, and as we move on into new expansions.

    I'm glad that they gave tanks more control of their own health, much like the Death Knights and Monks were built around, really I am. But the vengeance system is not the way to go.

    Also, you seem to be claiming that tanks don't need any kind of healing at all, which is completely false. If you have so much self healing that you don't ever need a single heal from your healer, then vengeance is truly broken.

  15. #175
    Epic! Ysilla's Avatar
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    Having tanks on top of damage would seem normal to me, I mean, why the hell are all enemies sticking to them (especially when other easy targets with way higher damage are at range) ? Cause tanks called them names and insulted their mothers ? In fact I'd even like it to be higher than it is now, but still in a way where only a few could pull out such damage in a fight. This seems way more understandable than the very very low DPS tanks could pull years ago, but also way harder to balance correctly.

    (And no, I'm not playing tank)

  16. #176
    I don't see the problem. Tanks do damage but they don't do anywhere close to the most damage, except maybe in 5-mans on occasion where some are capable of doing insane AoE, but who cares about what people do in 5-mans? If vengeance got nerfed into the ground, I would not have nearly as many soloing capabilities on my DK, and that would make playing it a lot less fun for me. I would probably stop playing it altogether.

  17. #177
    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-3p...&e=6425#Romulo

    Let's analyze this report shall we (I picked this because he's the paladin in the top 10 of Ra-Den):

    Romeo managed to double everyone's dps, while also doing 55% of all his TOTAL HEALING. All of this while doing 98% + of his damage on Ra-Den (So we're not talking inflated DPS numbers from AoE), while also taking 99.9% damage from Ra-Den himself (Read above).

    Nope, nothing wrong with Vengeance. Move along.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-27 at 04:44 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by wynnyelle View Post
    I don't see the problem. Tanks do damage but they don't do anywhere close to the most damage, except maybe in 5-mans on occasion where some are capable of doing insane AoE, but who cares about what people do in 5-mans? If vengeance got nerfed into the ground, I would not have nearly as many soloing capabilities on my DK, and that would make playing it a lot less fun for me. I would probably stop playing it altogether.
    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-3p...?s=6045&e=6425

    Damage taken by Ra-Den. Yup, who cares what people are doing in that silly ToT 5 man!

  18. #178
    OP got out dps'd by a tank and came here to moan. Rather than improve his own performance he would rather get everyone else nerfed.

    Quote Originally Posted by xdoom View Post
    Very much so I'm surprised they haven't nerfed it into the ground already
    They did after the whole lvl 80 soloing lvl 90 content thing. It is now capped at the players HP which seems fair, it's not every occasion it ever even gets that high.

  19. #179
    Pandaren Monk Of-the-horde's Avatar
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    It might need a nerf but I do enjoy boosting noobs in random hcs with my pro dps as tank.

  20. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by quikbunny View Post
    OP got out dps'd by a tank and came here to moan. Rather than improve his own performance he would rather get everyone else nerfed.



    They did after the whole lvl 80 soloing lvl 90 content thing. It is now capped at the players HP which seems fair, it's not every occasion it ever even gets that high.
    Please post your WoL logs so all the DPS in top end guilds can learn from your obviously superior wisdom on the art of DPS'ing.

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