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  1. #21
    The higher damage from tanks was a thing to attract more players to playing the tanking role since it was always left on the short end. However, the current way of vengeance is fine except people purposely taking extra damage to increase vengeance which increases dps and their heal. This issue is hopefully being fixed by lowering the cap in 5.4.

  2. #22
    The problem lies more with certain classes than Vengeance itself, although I agree that Vengeance's value is also simply too high.

  3. #23
    Tanks are not meant to be damage dealers. END OF STORY. My caps lock button is worn down ;(

    I think Vengeance got implemented as all our numbers increase ( items getting alot more stats on than before ) and Vengeance was the tool for the tank to keep his TPS even though the fire mage would rip Omen a new one... 5.4 adresses the issue of obtaining Vengeance but not looking at the right solution which is to look at the tps generation ONCE again and just simply put tanks above everything else... as I understand it, it is 500% aggro a tank gains on first hit but what about for the rest of the fight? I know tank specs have their own way of upping the threat too, but given 2 elements in order for the tank to gain tps, maybe the fix should be in tanks getting 100% tps in PVE content and get rid of vengeance all together? no tanks peaking as nr 1 on meters, if you wanna do that, reroll a Damage Dealer toon instead You wouldn't have a holy paladin trying to smack a boss with the mace nor would you want to see the resto druid casting Wrath all the time. We got roles, get used to them, stop crying about something that does not affect your own role in whatever you're gonna do.

  4. #24
    Its only a problem when the tank in LFR is shouting at everyone else that they are shitty dpsers because he is #1 on the charts and they should all be ashamed of themselves.

  5. #25
    I'm of the opinion tanks should focus on mitigation, rather than damage-I'd prefer to focus more on active mitigation than padding AP to do damage from a design POV. But hey thats just me.
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  6. #26
    What I hate about vengeance is that it tempts you to do the very last thing a tank should be doing like stand in fire or leaving out mitigation just to take and do more damage. If they just fixed tank damage to be around 70-80% of a pure dps role, but still wearing normal tank gear, the dps would still be respectable and fun for the tank without being a middle finger to dedicated dps specs.
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  7. #27
    As a Monk, I enjoy being able to contribute to the overall raid DPS during heroic progression. But if they do nerf it, they're nerfing survivability on moves that scale with AP. (Guard, Sacred Shield, ect)

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by ardisus View Post
    as I understand it, it is 500% aggro a tank gains on first hit but what about for the rest of the fight? I know tank specs have their own way of upping the threat too, but given 2 elements in order for the tank to gain tps, maybe the fix should be in tanks getting 100% tps in PVE content and get rid of vengeance all together?
    Tanks have 500% increased threat all the time, not just the first hit.
    A 100% TPS increase wouldn't be fun.

    The game is supposed to be fun. When threat and survivability are never an issue, what else is there to have fun as a tank?
    As others have stated, dealing damage AND using your active mitigation skills/CDs at the right moment is what separates good tanks from bad ones. Why not keep it that way?

    Quote Originally Posted by ardisus View Post
    We got roles, get used to them, stop crying about something that does not affect your own role in whatever you're gonna do.
    Also, use your own advice. A tank dealing more damage than you does not affect your own role in whatever you're gonna do.


    Furthermore, and I'm not trying to sound elitist in any way or shape, but are there any heroic raiders who have a problem with the fact that tanks are doing so much damage these days or is it just the normal mode raiders who want this changed?
    Last edited by Snuzzfizzle; 2013-06-27 at 04:45 AM.

  9. #29
    Have fun keeping people tanking w/o high veng.
    And "dps can't compete with tanks while lvling" sounds like bad dps, while leveling multiple toons (hunter,mage,shaman) never have i ran into a problem of not being able to out dps tank.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harranus View Post
    I love my Dk tank I haven't played for a little while due to some problems but when I come back I will probably switch to dps depending how big the vengeance nerf is. I understand that the tanks job is to take damage but doing damage and cool down rotation is what separates a good tank from a bad tank.
    By that logic, shouldn't we just make tanks invulnerable since more people would want to play them?
    Why would a mob attack someone doing low damage? Makes more sense that they would attack the person doing the most dps. Why not have the tank be that person? Then more people will want to be tanks.
    Why then do mobs not tunnel vision the healer? That would make more sense, since without heals the group cannot succeed. It's a game and to solve the "I'm gonna hit the guy who hits me hardest" issue they implemented aggro / threat.
    If I was a mob, the guy in glistening plate with a sword and shield who is bashing my face in every so often with his shield, while making me weaker and not giving any quarter for me to pass them by is who I focus on.
    The ferocious bear who's ripping me apart with it's claws and growling protectively over their friends, gets my attention.
    The undead knight who's seen much war in his days, who attacks with necrotic energy and steals my own life energy to supplement his own is who I'm going after.
    The bastion of holy radiance, protecting his allies with holy energy and smiting me with blessed shield and using holy energy to fuel his wrath will be my target.
    The drunken brawler nimbly avoiding my every attack and shrugging off the ones that manage to land will be sure to feel my wrath.

    See, it can make sense. In reality, you wouldn't always attack the one who's hitting the hardest. You may choose to go after the leader - the one standing on the front line leading the charge, taunting your from afar just to get you angry. You would assess the situation and logically determine who the best target is. Because this is a game though, they have to add mechanics to make those kind of ideas work. And again I ask, what other type of high fantasy game has the stereotypical protector doing more damage than the assassin or the berserker?

    *Edit*
    Have fun keeping people tanking w/o high veng.
    And "dps can't compete with tanks while lvling" sounds like bad dps, while leveling multiple toons (hunter,mage,shaman) never have i ran into a problem of not being able to out dps tank.
    My, that's awfully high and mighty of you. If you NEVER had an issue with tanks out DPSing you in dungeons while leveling then you either ran with some horrible tanks or you're a stellar player who was amazingly lucky. I've been healing on my Mistweaver from 15-65 over the past week or so, and on most (NOT ALL) single target fights tanks are either top damage done or right below. On AoE trash, it's practically no contest. I haven't seen a class yet while leveling this toon that can consistently keep up with tank AoE dps.

    It's not just low level though. Everything from 5-man heroics to heroic raiding has tanks doing very high DPS - sometimes more than actual DPS spec (which in my opinion shouldn't happen at all, save for select "gimmick" fights.

    Honestly, the defenders of Vengeance all seem to be saying that they like Vengeance because they like doing really good damage - that doing good damage is fun and without Vengeance the role wouldn't be enjoyable. I would suggest that with the next X-Pac they retune tanking and remove vengeance. They make tanking "fun" by making active mitigation matter more. Make threat matter. Make good tanks stand out as being the ones who can hold a pack of mobs and barely take any damage, and bad tanks struggle to hold threat and take more damage. I don't know. Again, I'm not a game designer. It just seems silly to have a tank doing almost as much (or more) damage than a DPS spec were all things equal. Ideally, in my opinion, say you average ilevel 510 geared DPS does 160k DPS - make an ilevel 510 tank do 80K. It's still meaningful, but not over the top. Your job is to keep aggro and stay alive, not DPS.
    Last edited by ATron52; 2013-06-27 at 04:57 AM.

  11. #31
    No. Its fine. Unless the tanks gaming somehow they still wont be able to out dps a dps. However, in 5.4 they are setting it to be fixed at a % of our hp.

  12. #32
    And if dps are so annoyed by that they can just delete the tank from recount/scada and be happy and not look at tank's dmg.

  13. #33
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    Few observations:

    1) As another support player (healer) while it is fun to do well on meters, it's not the main goal of playing support. Nor do I think it should be the way for tanks - their primary job should be to pick up and survive adds first (through mitigation and self healing) with DPS coming second. Ironically one of the big repeated (and dumb) arguments, "OMG BOSS DIED U GOT LOOTZ STOP COMPLAINING" actually applies more to the tanks who want to hold on to their vengeance than the DPS. As a tank, you should be more than happy the boss died and you (and your party) didn't. Not whoring over meters.

    2) I'm not against tanks doing DPS nor was tank DPS completely irrelevant before vengeance became uncapped. Tank DPS has always mattered, just you didn't abuse mechanics to get it, nor were you able to reach a ceiling of double to triple a DPS spec.

    3) Even when tanks did zero damage they were still an important member of the raid team, as they should be. But making both damage and survival scale with gear means that they become simply the most important part of a raid team. While tanks are and will always be and should be important members of the team, I think right now they are "too important" compared to the rest of the raid.

    4) No shit, given a choice at any point between two equally survivable tanks with equal raid utility, I would pick the tank that did higher DPS than the one who didn't. That doesn't mean that from a class balance point of view, tanks doing extreme damage on fights is a good thing.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-27 at 04:46 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by ATron52 View Post
    See, it can make sense. In reality, you wouldn't always attack the one who's hitting the hardest. You may choose to go after the leader - the one standing on the front line leading the charge, taunting your from afar just to get you angry. You would assess the situation and logically determine who the best target is. Because this is a game though, they have to add mechanics to make those kind of ideas work. And again I ask, what other type of high fantasy game has the stereotypical protector doing more damage than the assassin or the berserker?
    Given how many idiots in random BG's go after the prot specs first, I think it makes perfect sense.

  14. #34
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    Vengeance granting AP helps to balance tank mitigation for all tanks but DKs. Vengeance itself is fine- if you, as a dps, are in equal gear to a tank, then you SHOULD be outdpsing your tanks (except on AoE fights, where tanks tend to do higher damage damage). So for every fight but Horridon, Council, Dark Animus, and Iron Qon heroic, dps should be doing more damage then tanks following proper strats (one tanking fights will result in 1 tank having higher overall vengeance and thus higher overall dps).

    So, L2DPS nubz. Ain't tanks fault you fail at dpsing.
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  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raugnaut View Post
    Vengeance granting AP helps to balance tank mitigation for all tanks but DKs. Vengeance itself is fine- if you, as a dps, are in equal gear to a tank, then you SHOULD be outdpsing your tanks (except on AoE fights, where tanks tend to do higher damage damage). So for every fight but Horridon, Council, Dark Animus, and Iron Qon heroic, dps should be doing more damage then tanks following proper strats (one tanking fights will result in 1 tank having higher overall vengeance and thus higher overall dps).

    So, L2DPS nubz. Ain't tanks fault you fail at dpsing.

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  16. #36
    People that say tanks shouldn't high amount of dps and things such as that, dps of a tank has nothing to do with the fight because Blizzard can easily adjust the hp pool of bosses to account for the tank's damage applied in the fight. So a tank can do 100k dps vs 20k dps, it will not make a difference when Blizzard can adjust the hp pools to account that. It did suck being a tank in a raid environment when all the dps can compete against each other, especially farm content. O dang I beat you this week mr. rogue or lock says the mage... etc. Idk I found it nice in Mop when I was able to join the dps competition as a tank in some situation.

    Making people invulnerable will make anyfight neglible, you will probably lose more people because the content won't be challenaging.

    As a tank, threat has not been an issue against dps. Honestly, the only threat issue is versus a full vengeance tank when you taunt swap. However, they are somewhat solving that in 5.4.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by ATron52 View Post
    By that logic, shouldn't we just make tanks invulnerable since more people would want to play them?
    I don't think you understood my comment and I have no idea how you came to answer me with that. It just seems you are spouting off what you want to hear.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    Few observations:

    3) Even when tanks did zero damage they were still an important member of the raid team, as they should be. But making both damage and survival scale with gear means that they become simply the most important part of a raid team. While tanks are and will always be and should be important members of the team, I think right now they are "too important" compared to the rest of the raid.

    4) No shit, given a choice at any point between two equally survivable tanks with equal raid utility, I would pick the tank that did higher DPS than the one who didn't. That doesn't mean that from a class balance point of view, tanks doing extreme damage on fights is a good thing.
    3) You mean that if you're playing a role with only 1 -3 ppl in 10/25 man raid it's more important than other roles ? Shocking...
    And tanks scale a lot more with veng than they do with gear, gear is just a nice benefit (not even for all tanks).

    4) The larger the range of the possible performance the better it is, if the tanks would do 50k dps right now at best, and 25k at worst, you could be pressing 1 button macro and no one would notice. Right now you can actually see how well tanks can play their class (which might involve a little bit of veng gaming, but still a lot of just pushing buttons at proper time)

  19. #39
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    In addition to above:

    I think Vengeance should be retooled to be based on stamina (to make it both a DPS and a survival primary stat, and so it can "compete" with secondary stats) with a cap that is achievable. That way, there is a limit to tank mitigation.

    If you pull too much that's more than you should be able to chew, you should not be able to mitigate the damage and you should get wrecked. That's why you use cooldowns, externals, avoid damage instead of standing in it, or bring an off-tank to a fight where you're supposed to have one. That's why against elites solo, you can be durable but should not be God-mode.

    It also means that there can be a realistic ceiling set at tank DPS, which can be high but not outrageous.

    Quote Originally Posted by celinamuna View Post
    And tanks scale a lot more with veng than they do with gear, gear is just a nice benefit (not even for all tanks).
    Secondary stats are multiplicative with vengeance (strength wouldn't scale as well, being additive at high AP). Let's not be lying to ourselves. On fights with high AP, that high AP is being multiplied on a tank considerably more than even on a DPS when you're adding crit/haste.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    In addition to above:

    I think Vengeance should be retooled to be based on stamina (to make it both a DPS and a survival primary stat, and so it can "compete" with secondary stats) with a cap that is achievable. That way, there is a limit to tank mitigation.

    If you pull too much that's more than you should be able to chew, you should not be able to mitigate the damage and you should get wrecked. That's why you use cooldowns, externals, avoid damage instead of standing in it, or bring an off-tank to a fight where you're supposed to have one. That's why against elites solo, you can be durable but should not be God-mode.

    It also means that there can be a realistic ceiling set at tank DPS, which can be high but not outrageous.
    There's a cap and it's based on stamina.

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