Is Vengeance Getting Out Of Control?

[nightfalls]

I'm sure all of that mastery/parry/dodge (hello dk/warriors) does a helluva thing for veng.

And tanks are being moved into gearing for secondary stats or gaining secondary DPS stats, including DK's and warriors in 5.4, and every indication is that the game is moving away from dodge/parry gearing and into crit/haste gearing for tanks. As we all know especially knowing your activity on tanking discussions.

Seriously, there's no point in having an actual discussion if you're just going to play dumb every post you make...

[celinamuna]

You didn't read the part where I said with a cap that is achievable (in most boss fights, that is).

You mean like the one that they announced for 5.4 PTR ?
And let's not make it sound like tanks just suddenly decided to solo tank stuff, it happened before.
But before it was just a big pita for tanks, medium pita for healers, and very minor pita for dps for little to no benefit.
Now you actually do benefit from deciding to solo tank.

That doesn't mean that you're not going to use externals / internal cds or not bring an off-tank.

[nightfalls]

But before it was just a big pita for tanks, medium pita for healers, and very minor pita for dps for little to no benefit.

Oh, no shit, so solo tanking 2 tank fight is a PITA for the tank! OH NOES, god fucking forbid!! Poor tank!!!

Just like 2 healing a fight that's meant to be 5 healed is a PITA for the healers? We can't have that. Or overhealing a fight will make it hard on the DPS.... what in the world is going on?!

[celinamuna]

And tanks are being moved into gearing for secondary stats or gaining secondary DPS stats, including DK's and warriors in 5.4, and every indication is that the game is moving away from dodge/parry gearing and into crit/haste gearing for tanks. As we all know especially knowing your activity on tanking discussions.

Seriously, there's no point in having an actual discussion if you're just going to play dumb every post you make...

I haven't seen DK's / Warriors (possibly more rage not sure) actually having major benefits from dps stats.
Now i haven't had the chance to play around with the riposte crap on ptr, but it's still doesn't say "you should gear for crit/haste". More like "your dps might slightly benefit from defensive" which actually promotes defensive stats more.

---------- Post added 2013-06-26 at 10:58 PM ----------

Oh, no shit, so solo tanking 2 tank fight is a PITA for the tank! OH NOES, god fucking forbid!! Poor tank!!!

Just like 2 healing a fight that's meant to be 5 healed is a PITA for the healers? We can't have that. Or overhealing a fight will make it hard on the DPS.... what in the world is going on?!

That's why it was a choice, possible to go "yes i fucking can".
Just like holy paladins solo healing H Empress.
It was a pita, mostly to show off without major benefits, the only thing that changed, is that now you can actually benefit from it if you can pull it off.

[nightfalls]

I haven't seen DK's / Warriors (possibly more rage not sure) actually having major benefits from dps stats.
Now i haven't had the chance to play around with the riposte crap on ptr, but it's still doesn't say "you should gear for crit/haste". More like "your dps might slightly benefit from defensive" which actually promotes defensive stats more.

And provides a bonus that's multiplicative and that scales with defensive stats...

All this is moot, because my suggestion would have to go through in 6.0 at the earliest, and I can't see Riposte staying. It's gotta be a patchwork fix just to hold DKs/warriors until their class toolkits can get a fix in 6.0.

[Mormolyce]

I feel the same way, make Vengeance affect your threat and not your AP and buff baseline tank DPS if they really feel it shouldn't be so low. Tanks should be about survivability and their DPS should be irrelevant. I think they could go further with active mitigation and make that more interactive.

[celinamuna]

And provides a bonus that's multiplicative and that scales with defensive stats...

All this is moot, because my suggestion would have to go through in 6.0 at the earliest, and I can't see Riposte staying. It's gotta be a patchwork fix just to hold DKs/warriors until their class toolkits can get a fix in 6.0.

And ohh boy ohh boy i will get ~16% crit on my 522 dk.
Mind you that this "scaling multicatively" is still scaling off everyone's worst stat --> not going to have a lot of it and still scaling at half the rate as normal.
The main chunk of crit that i'll be getting is from base str (ha-ha-ha) and base dodge.
Those secondary "defensive" stats would give me ~ 4.5% crit ? Amazing.

Now the funny part is, that unless blizzard changed it, you don't get Veng from stuff you parried/dodged, so even if you stack the "OP defensive stat" you will lose out on veng, so your damage output might actually decrease.

[nightfalls]

I feel the same way, make Vengeance affect your threat and not your AP and buff baseline tank DPS if they really feel it shouldn't be so low. Tanks should be about survivability and their DPS should be irrelevant. I think they could go further with active mitigation and make that more interactive.

The problem is except DK's, all active mitigation tools are balanced around vengeance. You would have to retool AP scaling on offensive (not defensive) abilities, or separate attack/spell/healing power, or create a new system altogether.

That's why it was a choice, possible to go "yes i fucking can".
Just like holy paladins solo healing H Empress.
It was a pita, mostly to show off without major benefits, the only thing that changed, is that now you can actually benefit from it if you can pull it off.

Except for extreme show-off scenarios (which generally don't benefit people except those showing off), it's always going to be beneficial IF you can remove support players in favor of DPS. That's why most fights that could be one tanked this tier were.

It should come at a trade-off, but right now it really doesn't. Adding in a reached vengeance cap (and redesigning around this) will make it much, much harder to solo tank as it should.

And ohh boy ohh boy i will get ~11% crit on my 522 dk.
Mind you that this "scaling multicatively" is still scaling off everyone's worst stat --> not going to have a lot of it and still scaling at half the rate as normal.
The main chunk of crit that i'll be getting is from base str (ha-ha-ha) and base dodge.
Those secondary "defensive" stats would give me ~ 4% crit ? Amazing.

Right, I'm not denying that DKs and warriors suck right now compared to paladins, monks, and druids with DPS stat scaling. Trust me, my guild uses a warrior/DK tanking combo for our main tanks. I know.

But again in 6.0 (which is what I am talking about), I think Blizzard is moving all the tanks toward the pally/monk/druid model, not the DK/warrior model. That's why Riposte is meant to be a patchwork fix until the real changes can come out.

So again, moving on to 6.0...

[mmines]

I think it's fine (though those instances where people game it to really high values is bad but that's gonna be fixed iirc). I've actually come to like tanking again with getting such high hits. Just makes it feel fun.

[Ragashii]

Vengence is out of control for paladins mostly. But that's because they pretty much use ret gear at this point. Pretty much every tank that uses dps gear to tank these days is starting to get silly with vengence. So all the tank classes except Dks and warriors. Which is probably why riposte is being added for them but it doesn't really address that most of their attacks are based on weapon damage and not so much attack power. Weapon damage goes up with attack power but without the dps stats there's no way they can keep up. They will probably be overhauled to use DPS gear like everyone else pretty soon. Probably won't tank anymore once that happens though because tanking in DPS gear just feels wrong. Plus how would they handle DPS plate drops when 8 specs would want it? Arms/Fury/Prot, Ret/Prot, Unholy/Frost/Blood

[nightfalls]

I think it's fine (though those instances where people game it to really high values is bad but that's gonna be fixed iirc). I've actually come to like tanking again with getting such high hits. Just makes it feel fun.

I mean, I do too, but I don't think it's necessary to be automatically top DPS. Sure, if I'm overgeared the hell out of my group and I'm a raider in a group of LFR casuals, yeah, I should top, but the amount I would top a groups damage by is quite obscene, even against moderately good DPS. And it's not like I'm the world's greatest tank or world's greatest tank gear either, in fact, I'm quite mediocre.

It's not very fun gearing up as a DPS and noticing that at low gear levels, you just suck compared to tanks. Despite having a much harder and more involved (and often, clunky) rotation. Fun goes both ways.

[Mormolyce]

There's a cap and it's based on stamina.

That cap is only really there to mitigate tanks deliberately standing in void zones or eating damage they shouldn't just for DPS. And it's a clumsy solution to that problem as well.

[ATron52]

I don't think you understood my comment and I have no idea how you came to answer me with that. It just seems you are spouting off what you want to hear.

To your credit, I got dumb and quoted the wrong person. I should probably check things like that before I hit post...

Tanks doing dps is fun. Most people find bigger numbers more fun. Tanks being more fun to play, more people play tanks. Less QQing about the massive tank shortage.

That is what I meant to quote and my remark stands as a response to it. I'm sure Blizzard can find better / more interesting ways to make tanks "fun" than having them do DPS spec level DPS. That's just me, though.

[Mormolyce]

The problem is except DK's, all active mitigation tools are balanced around vengeance. You would have to retool AP scaling on offensive (not defensive) abilities, or separate attack/spell/healing power, or create a new system altogether.

I don't think it would be hard to retool the active mitigation tools to scale with your dodge/parry/etc instead. Would make those stats more attractive than DPS ones as well.

[nightfalls]

I don't think it would be hard to retool the active mitigation tools to scale with your dodge/parry/etc instead. Would make those stats more attractive than DPS ones as well.

One thing I will say out loud is that dodge/parry is what is not fun as a tank. I'm in full agreement that those stats should be scrapped and a passive amount given from strength/agility.

[celinamuna]

Except for extreme show-off scenarios (which generally don't benefit people except those showing off), it's always going to be beneficial IF you can remove support players in favor of DPS. That's why most fights that could be one tanked this tier were.

It should come at a trade-off, but right now it really doesn't. Adding in a reached vengeance cap (and redesigning around this) will make it much, much harder to solo tank as it should.



Right, I'm not denying that DKs and warriors suck right now compared to paladins, monks, and druids with DPS stat scaling. Trust me, my guild uses a warrior/DK tanking combo for our main tanks. I know.

But again in 6.0 (which is what I am talking about), I think Blizzard is moving all the tanks toward the pally/monk/druid model, not the DK/warrior model. That's why Riposte is meant to be a patchwork fix until the real changes can come out.

So again, moving on to 6.0...

And that is bad how ? I'm sure i can find plenty of "6 heal" fights done with 5 healers, for the same reason you just said.
Hell, some zerg stats go for 1 tank, 1 healer , 8 dps (on 10 man). So should we also bitch and moan that healers are healing too much (or in case of disc/mistweaver actually doing damage ?)
This is not a new concept, it was *always* better to unload anything for something else that makes the fight go by faster (extra healers on dreamwalker / tsulong)
Just now it's actually sort of possible to do it, without creating a shit ton of annoyance for everyone in the raid.

And let's not discuss un-announced (even if sort of obvious/expected) changes that would come in 6.0
For all we know blizzard will say that for tanks parry/dodge counts as haste and crit (and make the gear actually better for tanks)

---------- Post added 2013-06-26 at 11:14 PM ----------

That cap is only really there to mitigate tanks deliberately standing in void zones or eating damage they shouldn't just for DPS. And it's a clumsy solution to that problem as well.

H dark animus would like to say hello.

[RoKPaNda]

I just really don't understand why DPS care if on a few fights one tank is higher than the DPS, or higher than some of the DPS. You know that they're there because of a tank mechanic, they know it, and it's just one tank. That's the important part, it's not like you can bring 4 tanks to your raid and suddenly all 4 of them are at or near the top of the meter. It just doesn't work that.

A lot of people that whine about vengeance seem to have no idea how it works. It requires a pretty steady stream of damage. It's not like a tank gets smacked in the face and suddenly has a huge stack of vengeance throughout the entire fight. If there is a period where the tank takes very little damage their vengeance stack drops significantly.

The issues are as follows:
1) A paladin ability is broken (until next tier, supposedly.) and it allows a tank to 1-tank a fight designed for multiple tanks.
2) Thanks to Blizzard's fantastic active mitigation pipe dream and the way that tanking works this expansion it's possible for tanks to stand in fire or do things that SHOULD kill them just to increase their vengeance stack and keep it high.

If they fix those things, the issue is solved, because tanks doing decent damage is not part of the issue. Vengeance isn't the issue, the issue is that vengeance can be cheesed.

Blizzard's fix for next patch? It's only a real fix for that tier and maybe one or two bosses of the current tier where it's even possible to reach those caps.

[Normie]

Given how many idiots in random BG's go after the prot specs first, I think it makes perfect sense.

I don't understand. If you can one-shot anyone who's a few percent below full health with shield slam, why would you go prot warrior?

[nightfalls]

And that is bad how ? I'm sure i can find plenty of "6 heal" fights done with 5 healers, for the same reason you just said.
Hell, some zerg stats go for 1 tank, 1 healer , 8 dps (on 10 man). So should we also bitch and moan that healers are healing too much (or in case of disc/mistweaver actually doing damage ?)
This is not a new concept, it was *always* better to unload anything for something else that makes the fight go by faster (extra healers on dreamwalker / tsulong)
Just now it's actually sort of possible to do it, without creating a shit ton of annoyance for everyone in the raid.

Right, I know that fights have and will be underhealed and undertanked. That's exactly what I brought up. The thing is, it should create annoyance. 5 healing a 6 heal fight is generally doable but it should not be easy. You should have to avoid a lot more damage as a DPS, or use your personals a lot more, to compensate for having the 5 healers despite the fact that it's generally done with 6.

Healers should have to pump extra heals while being extra careful with mana compared to running with the proper amount, and failing to do this should result in a very annoying wipe. That's a good thing, that's why fights are designed to have 6 healers. It would be doable in 5 undergeared, but you'd have to go through hell and back for it.

Same goes for solo tanking a fight. When done it can make enrages a lot easier to make, but your healers and tank (and DPS) should have to play a lot more carefully than by "properly" doing it with 2 tanks, and slight mistakes should result in a wipe.

For all we know blizzard will say that for tanks parry/dodge counts as haste and crit (and make the gear actually better for tanks

The consequence is the same, you're still getting haste and crit no matter what the name of the stat reads on the item. I mean, I always saw Vengeance and AM as a 6.0 discussion, obviously reworking the entire system at this point would take a lot of effort and break old fights.

If we're here to discuss 5.4, well, I could care less.

[celinamuna]

Right, I know that fights have and will be underhealed and undertanked. That's exactly what I brought up. The thing is, it should create annoyance. 5 healing a 6 heal fight is generally doable but it should not be easy. You should have to avoid a lot more damage as a DPS, or use your personals a lot more, to compensate for having the 5 healers despite the fact that it's generally done with 6.

Healers should have to pump extra heals while being extra careful with mana compared to running with the proper amount, and failing to do this should result in a very annoying wipe. That's a good thing, that's why fights are designed to have 6 healers. It would be doable in 5 undergeared, but you'd have to go through hell and back for it.

Same goes for solo tanking a fight. When done it can make enrages a lot easier to make, but your healers and tank (and DPS) should have to play a lot more carefully than by "properly" doing it with 2 tanks, and slight mistakes should result in a wipe.

Are you saying they're not ?
Show me any shitty tank that can solo tank a fight in ToT (let's make it H) and i'll give you a cookie.

The entire point of solo tanking a fight (or doing w/e other veng shenanigans) is that you don't just get it by being attacked, you get it by carefully using your CD's so you don't get gibbed.
Otherwise healers just wouldn't be able to heal you through the damage (and even if they could, that would qualify as "through hell and back" for healers).

The consequence is the same, you're still getting haste and crit no matter what the name of the stat reads on the item. I mean, I always saw Vengeance and AM as a 6.0 discussion, obviously reworking the entire system at this point would take a lot of effort and break old fights.

If we're here to discuss 5.4, well, I could care less.

We don't know how that haste and mastery will affect us in 6.0
Hell we've had it in cata, and yet i haven't seen tanks using "dps" gear (bears excluded) so their dps can go up.

If blizzard actually wanted to make both active and passive mitigation useful they could. Make passive give 0.x of haste/crit till it's competitive but not yet superior, bam, you get to pick more mitigation for slightly smaller dmg output.
Now you get to pick between better mitigation + better dmg vs worse mitigation + worse dmg.