Is Vengeance Getting Out Of Control?

[Ragashii]

Tank DPS has always mattered, just now it's predominant. I mean, if you were properly geared, aside from DK, what else did you have to do?

Except that it didn't really matter back then. It only mattered so that you didn't throttle your the DPS players in your raid. I just can't wrap my head around why people think that there is only DPS in this game. You had much more to be doing in a fight than just worrying about your personal dps as a tank. Positioning, adds, debuffs, threat etc. Your DPS was an after thought back then, and it wasn't a priority. Most of the time you were limited by cooldowns and resources such as rage anyway so even if you tried to maximize your dps you would find that you don't have enough at key moments.

So what you're saying is that in a fight where there were basic taunt switches once the other tank taunted you just turned off auto attack and went afk ?

Because if it's not then you wanted to do more dmg. Sure you might've not been doing a lot more, but a tank taking X damage and doing 100 dps was always worse than tank taking X dmg, but doing 105 dps.
It's the same fucking reason people pre-potted and etc.


Except you couldn't. They are doing max dps by default.
Even back then, even when damage was minimal, if you could do an extra 1% of your damage, you did it. If you could do +1% healing you did it. (Effective ofc, not talking about multidotting adds that don't need to die and etc).
But at any point doing X+1 > X

And no oddly enough i was tanking even in LK with the amazing 69 rotation of a prot paladin.

What are you smoking because I want whatever it is. A tank that took less damage was always better than one who took more but put out a tiny bit more DPS. You really think a raid wanted someone who took 10,000 more damage on average but did 5 more DPS because of it? Healers had to manage their mana back then and if they had to dump a lot into a tank then guess what? It was a wipe. What are you even going on about? Seriously I can't even wrap my head around your so called "argument". After this post I'm not going to address any more of your posts because they annoy me a great deal. I'll be going to sleep anway.

But let's get started on this mess of an argument you managed to conjure up. People pre-potted for the same reason they pre-pot now. But you could use multiple potions in combat back then so it didn't matter as much. You were actually expected to use multiple pots in a fight anyway so what point are you trying to make?

DPS didn't do max DPS by default I'm not even sure you thought about this before you typed it. I'm also sure you didn't even get the point I was trying to make. That back then it didn't make sense to ask your tanks to try and do more DPS for the same reason you didn't ask healers for more DPS. It didn't make a difference at all. You were better off just pushing more DPS out of the players who were already DPS to begin with because they could do a lot more than a tank could. That is the point I was making.

[celinamuna]

Except that it didn't really matter back then. It only mattered so that you didn't throttle your the DPS players in your raid. I just can't wrap my head around why people think that there is only DPS in this game. You had much more to be doing in a fight than just worrying about your personal dps as a tank. Positioning, adds, debuffs, threat etc. Your DPS was an after thought back then, and it wasn't a priority. Most of the time you were limited by cooldowns and resources such as rage anyway so even if you tried to maximize your dps you would find that you don't have enough at key moments.

But you cared, if you had everything else down you didn't just stop attacking and go grab a drink while your co-tank is waiting for your debuff to fall off and you to taunt off.
It wasn't a deciding factor, but everything always mattered. A dps being able to self heal ever so slightly while doing same dps who can't was a benefit.

At any point being able to do anything extra w/o sacrificing anything in returns was good.

[Deleted]

LFR are a terrible indicator of fights, and I'd look at your tanks if they're not beating your dps at least in gimmick fights (horridon)

Even doing 240k i dont beat all our dps, i beat the bad ones...

[Detheavn]

I don't really care about a tanks damage. If anything it helps me kill mobs faster so it's actually a win-win kind of situation.

[Radio]

Except that it didn't really matter back then. It only mattered so that you didn't throttle your the DPS players in your raid. I just can't wrap my head around why people think that there is only DPS in this game. You had much more to be doing in a fight than just worrying about your personal dps as a tank. Positioning, adds, debuffs, threat etc. Your DPS was an after thought back then, and it wasn't a priority. Most of the time you were limited by cooldowns and resources such as rage anyway so even if you tried to maximize your dps you would find that you don't have enough at key moments.

Except it did, any extra damage done by the raid on any fight that is done without compromising your success mattered. When tanks swapped taunts, the tank not currently tanking would aim to do as much damage as he could without pulling back and without sacrificing his burst for when he taunted back. This was especially the case on progression when you didn't overgear the fight.

Nowadays, the same thing is true, but there is a LOT more to gain from following those same rules, due to vengeance.

[Mormolyce]

you want to nerf tank damage? remove some of the fun from the role? isnt there already a shortage of people willing to tank?

There's not enough healers either, maybe healers should do more damage than a DPS?

The fun of being a tank is tanking, I would've thought. Or why not just remove the trinity system entirely and make everyone DPS?

---------- Post added 2013-06-27 at 07:03 AM ----------

First of all, that description is years old, not how it is now.
Second prot warriors, the lowest dps tank gets yer love, brilliant.

He was talking about new players, ie leveling. And yes, a Prot warrior will top the meters sub-85 or so. Possibly except versus certain classes that are OP in certain level brackets or pop all CDs at the right time during AOE, etc.

---------- Post added 2013-06-27 at 07:07 AM ----------

Except you don't get to the actually extremely high dps by even standing in fire, it's mostly insane dmg intake (aka H dark animus + tons of adds).
Even right now, all of those nice fire patches on the ground won't help you that much to do "max dps" (enough to cheeze by people in WoL but not enough to push you from doing half of dps dmg to 1.5 dps dmg).
Granted i don't have a problem with tanks not getting veng from standing in void zones and fire patches.
But nerfing tank veng gained that they get from legitimate tanking is silly.

It's anywhere you can use high damage to get big vengeance.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/...f_Thunder/dps/

Look at the last four bosses. I mean, to me that's just silly regardless of what they did to get those numbers.

P.S. I like your sig.

[nightfalls]

Except that it didn't really matter back then. It only mattered so that you didn't throttle your the DPS players in your raid. I just can't wrap my head around why people think that there is only DPS in this game. You had much more to be doing in a fight than just worrying about your personal dps as a tank. Positioning, adds, debuffs, threat etc. Your DPS was an after thought back then, and it wasn't a priority. Most of the time you were limited by cooldowns and resources such as rage anyway so even if you tried to maximize your dps you would find that you don't have enough at key moments.

Of course, that's why I said it was a lot less of a priority back then. You mainly worried about what you said - positioning, adds, perhaps mitigation assuming you played a "more" active tank (DK).

DPS was an afterthought, but it was there and on particularly hard enrage fights, tanks could and would swap trinkets and even talents for extra DPS up to the minimum needed to survive.

P.S. I'm not completely against the thought of trading survival for damage in some cases, but I think this would be best off left to the glyph system.

[Okacz]

Okay, you can argue that it's getting out of control, but come on. It's not like Prot tanks are being seated despite the fact they are geared and take small damage, but because their damage is low... Oh wait, thats exactly what is happening.

WoW has 3 easy to distinguish roles - tank, healer, dps. No hybrids, no "controllers", nothing like that, just 3 roles. If one role is overwhelming another, it's starting to be a problem. Some roles can perform a little as other, but just a little. Fury warrior can save the team some time by going Def Stance after a tank dies, buying time before the tank is ressed - so he performs A LITTLE as a tank. Windwalker Monk can, thanks to his talents, help out in healing - so he performs A LITTLE as a healer. BM monk does more dps than any other dps in the raid (Horridon, for example) - now you see a problem?

[Saiyoran]

The fix for Vengeance SHOULD be to make standing in Void Zones/Avoidable Fire/Bad Things not grant vengeance.

Instead, Blizzard is capping it at 30% max hp in 5.4, again lowering the skillcap for an already easy role (I've tanked since vanilla in progression raids, not trying to insult tanks). Brewmaster is an amazing spec in this regard: It scales so ridiculously with skill and gear that it is easy to distinguish the bad tanks from the good tanks (as you watch the bad tanks get raped and the good ones pulling top dps while still taking no damage...). The fun part of the game for many is performing optimally, being able to maximize your usefulness, damage, and survivability, in a way that others may not be able to. Taking away tank dps as a vital part of 10 man and (to a lesser extent) 25 man progression makes tanking pretty boring, especially at gear levels that are at or above the intended level for the content, where surviving is pretty much a non-issue.

DPS getting their feelings hurt because a tank can actually do something useful outside of standing in front of the big scary boss is stupid. It doesn't make a DPS LESS USEFUL if a tank is doing damage. You can't bring 25 tanks, vengeance doesn't work that way. Get over your epeens and let tanks have some fun, since that is what the game should be about. Each role should be enjoyable, which tanks are when they can try and maximize both survivability AND DPS. Simply surviving in most content outside of bleeding edge is a joke, DPS adds that extra layer of interest to playing a class.

Get over yourselves.

Side Note: I do, however, agree that gaming vengeance on some mechanics should be remedied (H Animus Zerg Strat, I'm looking at you).

---------- Post added 2013-06-27 at 02:33 AM ----------

Okay, you can argue that it's getting out of control, but come on. It's not like Prot tanks are being seated despite the fact they are geared and take small damage, but because their damage is low... Oh wait, thats exactly what is happening.

WoW has 3 easy to distinguish roles - tank, healer, dps. No hybrids, no "controllers", nothing like that, just 3 roles. If one role is overwhelming another, it's starting to be a problem. Some roles can perform a little as other, but just a little. Fury warrior can save the team some time by going Def Stance after a tank dies, buying time before the tank is ressed - so he performs A LITTLE as a tank. Windwalker Monk can, thanks to his talents, help out in healing - so he performs A LITTLE as a healer. BM monk does more dps than any other dps in the raid (Horridon, for example) - now you see a problem?

But it's not like you can stack BrM monks in place of DPS. Their DPS is good, but without vengeance, its not going to help you out. BrM damage is one of the things that distinguishes the class as valuable, since their raid utility out of niche fights is pretty lacking. Your tank isn't outdpsing your DPS 75% of the time, and the times he is, its not going to hurt the dps because you arent going to bring MORE BREWMASTERS instead of them.

[Azrile]

Allowing tanks to put out decent damage is probably my favorite addition to this game in a long time. It's not often that we top meters, but it's nice to be more than just a meat shield all the time.

Seriously, I mean, what is the real complaint here? 5-mans? Yeah, 5-mans are different because tanks have the highest up-time. They're mostly irrelevant.

Vengeance getting heavily nerfed is one of the things that will probably kill tanking for me, and I've been tanking since BC.

Raids are balanced around tank DPS.. so it is moot either way. For 5-mans, it doesn´t matter because the content is so easy anyway. The only thing it does is helps highly geared DPS not have to constantly agro-dump.

I really don´t get the argument.. does anyone really want 5-mans to take longer?

[Saiyoran]

It bothers me when I play my tank. It bothers me when I play DPS. It even bothers me when I play my healers. It's just a nonsensical design - tanks focus on mitigation, DPS focus on damage - but the tank does as much or more (depending on context). It also flies in the face of how WoW was designed for years - tanks way down the bottom.

It encourages tanks to use DPS gear, or maximise their vengeance. They contribute such a significant proportion of the raid's DPS that optimising the tank's damage output actually becomes a meaningful concern in a raid group. Which leads to tanks deliberately taking more damage in order to do more DPS, which is completely ass-backwards.

Your main issue seems to be that "this isn't how it used to be, so it must be wrong QQ!" Just because it "flies in the face of how WoW was designed for years" doesn't make something bad. If your tank is stacking DPS stats, he is losing mitigation stats (BrM and Pally haste excluded, because those are some of the main perks of the class). There is a fair tradeoff there. It's not like I can hop on my warrior, stack crit, and not lose some mastery. The fun part is balancing when to maximise damage and when to maximise survivability. Taking away damage makes tanking boring as hell, just sitting there spamming block/barrier, popping cds when my timers go off. The fun of progression is creativity and pushing limits, dropping healers, dropping tanks, trying new strategies, stacking dps as a tank and figuring out what cooldowns need to be blown to cover it. It puts some skill back in tanking. AGAIN, this doesn't apply in situations where vengeance is gamed (solo tanking Animus with a BrM is over the top because the mitigation scales with vengeance to such an extreme degree that there is really no balance needed).

[Pua]

Tanks are the most sought after role in game. Anything that makes them feel more fun should be encouraged, not discouraged. Being a sponge to soak damage does not encourage people to roll tanks.

It's funny that tank numbers have hit the skids post Vengeance.

Also, I recall a tweet from Ghostcrawler saying that they were going to nerf it pretty hard. Nothing about it in the official patch notes yet, but we should wait and see.

[pimpeddakota]

Vengeance isn't an issue because once the DPS players got gear tanks are no longer top DPS. Yes, when this xpac first hit a lot of tanks where on top but who cares... you get through the content faster. Now that DPS players have gear my tank is no longer on top of the charts. Yes there are some fights where you can get ubsurd numbers for vengeance but again WHO CARES!

Vengeance is not active in PVP so it has ZERO effect on you as a DPS player unless all you care about is meters but that implies you're HORRIBLE at this game.

[Deleted]

WoW has 3 easy to distinguish roles - tank, healer, dps. No hybrids, no "controllers", nothing like that, just 3 roles. If one role is overwhelming another, it's starting to be a problem. Some roles can perform a little as other, but just a little. Fury warrior can save the team some time by going Def Stance after a tank dies, buying time before the tank is ressed - so he performs A LITTLE as a tank. Windwalker Monk can, thanks to his talents, help out in healing - so he performs A LITTLE as a healer. BM monk does more dps than any other dps in the raid (Horridon, for example) - now you see a problem?

Lets ignore its only 1 tank and rest dps in the top 100 for horridon.
The one BrM monk who is there has a whooping 80% uptime triple puncture (read tanking horridon 100%).
What is the diff between tank and dps there ?
You dont know ? Its no problem, i figured as much.

Horridon gets a stacking damage buff where the ones hitting him fulltime gets the most benifit from it coupled with the high damage from horridon you get very high vengance.
Even so...good tanks dont beat good dps hitting horridon equally much...

[Deleted]

Lets ignore its only 1 tank and rest dps in the top 100 for horridon.
The one BrM monk who is there has a whooping 80% uptime triple puncture (read tanking horridon 100%).
What is the diff between tank and dps there ?
You dont know ? Its no problem, i figured as much.

Horridon gets a stacking damage buff where the ones hitting him fulltime gets the most benifit from it coupled with the high damage from horridon you get very high vengance.
Even so...good tanks dont beat good dps hitting horridon equally much...

That is so true.

[Deleted]

I couldn't really care if tanks are hitting huge numbers that are higher than the Dps. It could help them think they are helping more than just having some mob attacking them. Take away the large damage and whats the difference between a good tank that can hold agro and a bad tank that can hold aggro?

A good tank takes less damage by using their defensive abilities correctly and moving better along with the mechanics? A tanks job was never to deal damage, they should never be concerned with how much damage they put out. That's the DPS' job.

[Deleted]

A good tank takes less damage by using their defensive abilities correctly and moving better along with the mechanics? A tanks job was never to deal damage, they should never be concerned with how much damage they put out. That's the DPS' job.

A good tank nowdays trys to take as much dmg as possible without making the healers struggle (and to not dieing) to do as much dps as possible. Atleast in 10mans the dps more then makes up for the increased dmg taken.

That is the core problem. (obviously im talking about boss mechanics, sence you get vengence from dodge/parry boss auto attacks)

[Deleted]

A good tank nowdays trys to take as much dmg as possible without making the healers struggle (and to not dieing) to do as much dps as possible. Atleast in 10mans the dps more then makes up for the increased dmg taken.

That is the core problem. (obviously im talking about boss mechanics, sence you get vengence from dodge/parry boss auto attacks)

That's the thing. A tank isn't supposed to want to take damage, his role is to take as much as possible instead of the group, but still as little as possible outside of that. That's why vengeance is illogical, as well as the Warlock talent Arhimonde's Vengeance. You should never want to take more damage, unless the intention is to die.

There are other ways of making the tank role fun, without increasing the damage a tank does... If dealing high amounts of damage is what a person enjoys, then that person should have rolled a DPS.

[Vasilisa]

I see here a lot of butthurt dps bleeding their eyes because they got beaten by a tank (TANK!) od dps meters. Chill out guys. What is your goal? To achieve something as a group or to obtain some elusive personal ego-goal? This game is about cooperation and different classes/specs cover different aspects of the fights.

Vengeance has zero affect on pvp so I will put it aside. The fact that tanks are doing top dps in dugeons is mainly because of the fact that usually tank is the most overgeared player in dungeon and that he (obviously) is pulling all mobs thus he spend more time in combat then anybody else.

Raiding is a bit different matter. Though the main question is - what is your goal? Nerfing vengance per se will not do the good you think it will. The first to blame for high numbers are the encounters that are designed in a way that tank is tanking a lot monsters (bats on tortos) or tanking hard hitting mobs (Iron qon hc). If you remove the ability for tank to do high dps then another problem will surface - berserk timers will be a lot more brutal, especially in 10 man raiding mode.

You mention tortos as the fight where tanks "make numbers". That is true, but somehow nobody is crying that a monk tank is kiting all the bats around the room for the whole fight and nobody needs to dps them. Both of these tactics work good. Tank with high vengeance killing bats and monk running around the room with horde of bats trying to catch him. The goal is achieve a killing blow on the boss. So what's the difference aside of high numbers generated by a tank?

In theory let's say that vengeance is scrapped. What it will achieve? Dmg dealers will have to push higher numbers in order beat the boss. And in rotation department tanks will need to focus on survival and threat only which is around half of what I need to do on the bosses atm. This would make some tanks getting bored and again high demand for tanks will surface.

However saying all this I'm against tanks doing more dmg then decent dmg dealer on single-target encounter. Tank will never outdps any properly playing dps on that. On aoe encounters it way another story. But look at the logs posted (http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/...f_Thunder/dps/) - first one on horridon encounter is windwalker monk, who was probably sitting on horridon for 99% of the fight and aoeing the adds nearby.

You can't compare single target fight (a'ka' patchwerk style) to fight with many adds and without taking fight specific mechanics (horridon buff) into account. When tanks start winning with dps on tank'n'spank fights in raids then vengeance will start to be serious problem.

The only thing that should be prevented somehow is that some tanks tend to take unneeded hits in order to get higher amount of vengeance. 30% hp vengeance cap should solve ego-problems of some hurt dps. However I believe that's not the route. Like someone say already, it changes nothing, only dumbs tanking. Maybe vengeance should be awarded by avoiding dmg not tanking it straight into face? I'm not sure what would be the best way to answer the problem but in my opinion plain nerf is not the way to go.

There are other ways of making the tank role fun, without increasing the damage a tank does... If dealing high amounts of damage is what a person enjoys, then that person should have rolled a DPS.

I will remember this argument when some dps will be defending their healing/survival capabilities. I don't mind tanking warlock (who is a dps) who say they find it fun so why should other dps find a problem with me liking to deal damage as well? I can be useful while having fun, what's the problem with that?

[Jackkernaut]

If ppl complains about Vengence you should see tank damage without it....