Why the hell do some people care so much what others do?
omg others enjoy LFR? well i don't! so it must be removed!!11
omg others enjoy pvp? well i don't! so it must be removed!!11
omg tanks are doing decent damage making the group to move faster? oh no! that must not happen, I don't care if it benefits the group, the roles are sacred and traditions must be respected! tanks shouldn't do damage! no, that's wrong!!!111
You can build a character in any pen and paper RPG that deals almost as much damage as a defenseless player because the only thing that matter for damage dealing in those games is the correct primary stat and a good weapon. Even if you don't want to admit it the tank should never deal pitiful amounts damage to make bad dps feel better about themselves. I love our tank because he makes me try harder at dps and new players have no idea how much damage a tank is doing at low levels because new players don't go out and load up on damage meters.
Nice generalization, but the issue is more complicated than you might think. Vengeance gives tanks attack power, which increases their damage done by all abilities. That's the obvious part. What you are missing is that it also increases self healing and absorption effects by huge amounts. Note how on tough damage fights, paladin tanks in particular top both damage AND healing meters. Vengeance can push our Sacred Shield absorption from 40k every few secs to 140k+. Our seal of insight can begin to heal for 50k+ every other hit, while battle healer heals raid members for amounts upwards of 20k. It might sound OP, but on very high damage fights like H Horridon, we NEED this to survive. It is not just about these supposed egotistical tanks wanting to do high DPS as you would like to think.
The total removal of vengeance at this time would be nothing short of catastrophic for the PvE scene. EVERY boss of the expansion would have to be retuned, otherwise it would be virtually impossible for the harder ones at least to be tanked. Challenge modes will be totally screwed too. Look at how tanks perform in PvP right now, where there is no vengeance. To detail, prot paladins at least in PvP right now are probably as viable as they were in vanilla (a.k.a. when the spec was useless and broken in every sense of the word).
All for what? To make DPS feel better about themselves due to their meter ranks? To be clear: vengeance really isn't harming anyone at all, unless you have a tank that stands in shit to increase vengeance (in which case, it is the fault of the tank). How does it truly affect you directly when you see tanks topping meters? Why should it bother you? I have a DPS toon too, and you know what I do when I see a tank beating me? Nothing, really. I don't care, and you shouldn't either. The fact that you are supportive of a decision that would truly break the PvE scene unless a huge effort in retuning is undertaken, for the sake of damage dealers feeling better about themselves, really sheds light on who is really being egotistical here.
I think it's potentialy very confusing to new players who roll a dps class but see tanks do 3 or 4 times more damage. Vengeance isn't really a problem at 90, but anywhere lower than that it should be toned down imo.
Partially. Vengeance works really well for Prot paladins as it increases the absorption of our Sacred Shield, and the healing done by our Seal of Insight. Those effects also happen to scale really well with haste too, which is why we use the DPS gear (non-crit gear, however). So at high vengeance levels, we get pretty incredible amounts of self healing/absorbing. I am speaking in terms of mitigation, of course. With DPS, it certainly combines well with the haste gear that we use, but our DPS really isn't the important one.
This is like saying that Hunters using melee gear is wrong, when referring to their using expertise in MoP. Haste benefits our mitigation more than Dodge and Parry do, does that not make haste a tanking stat? If it does, does that not make haste gear tanking gear and not just DPS gear?
I'm assuming you've never really played many pen and paper games then. Generally speaking, a one handed weapon will not only hit for less than someone dual wielding / two handed / bow / spells, but it also doesn't receive as high of a modifier to damage. 3E D&D for instance, a longsword will hit for 1d8+str modifier, whereas a greatsword hits for 2d6+(1.5)str modifier. With an 18 Str at level one, you go from hitting for 1d8+4 with a longsword to 2d6+6 with a great sword. In essence, a guy with a sword and shield will hit for about 66% of what a guy with a big sword hits for (it's not exact, but close). That falls exactly into the "tank DPS should be between 1/2 and 3/4 of an equally geared player that I've been suggesting. There are also numerous other examples in pen and paper games I can point out - I have to get ready for work right now but I assure you that they exist.
#1) I have never once stated removal / change Vengeance in 5.4 or mid expansion. I fully realize that in order to do something that big, it'll completely screw up balance in many aspects of the game. If you'd read my posts in this thread, I mention that numerous times.Nice generalization, but the issue is more complicated than you might think. Vengeance gives tanks attack power, which increases their damage done by all abilities. That's the obvious part. What you are missing is that it also increases self healing and absorption effects by huge amounts. Note how on tough damage fights, paladin tanks in particular top both damage AND healing meters. Vengeance can push our Sacred Shield absorption from 40k every few secs to 140k+. Our seal of insight can begin to heal for 50k+ every other hit, while battle healer heals raid members for amounts upwards of 20k. It might sound OP, but on very high damage fights like H Horridon, we NEED this to survive. It is not just about these supposed egotistical tanks wanting to do high DPS as you would like to think.
The total removal of vengeance at this time would be nothing short of catastrophic for the PvE scene. EVERY boss of the expansion would have to be retuned, otherwise it would be virtually impossible for the harder ones at least to be tanked. Challenge modes will be totally screwed too. Look at how tanks perform in PvP right now, where there is no vengeance. To detail, prot paladins at least in PvP right now are probably as viable as they were in vanilla (a.k.a. when the spec was useless and broken in every sense of the word).
All for what? To make DPS feel better about themselves due to their meter ranks? To be clear: vengeance really isn't harming anyone at all, unless you have a tank that stands in shit to increase vengeance (in which case, it is the fault of the tank). How does it truly affect you directly when you see tanks topping meters? Why should it bother you? I have a DPS toon too, and you know what I do when I see a tank beating me? Nothing, really. I don't care, and you shouldn't either. The fact that you are supportive of a decision that would truly break the PvE scene unless a huge effort in retuning is undertaken, for the sake of damage dealers feeling better about themselves, really sheds light on who is really being egotistical here.
#2) Since I've never stated I want to remove / change it mid expansion, balance of current content will not matter. If they changed it, tanks and boss damage in 6.0 would be balanced accordingly. There's absolutely no reason for a Protection Paladin to top both damage done and healing done. Why make the already most important job in a raid feel more important?
#3) I don't believe DPS wanting to do more damage than a tank is very egotistical at all, actually. If you work as a car salesman but the guy from accounting is selling almost as much or more than you pretty routinely, wouldn't you feel a little strange? That's a strange example, sure, but sales and accounting are two completely different jobs that are working together for the business. Is his success hurting you? Not necessarily, but it does diminish the value of your job, even though your car lot only needs on accountant.
Am I the only one who get depressed when I see I'm out dpsing everyone as a tank? Tanks are about mitigating and avoiding damage. Let DPS have their job back.
I think his point is that avoidance is likely to go the way of the dodo in 6.0, which means conventional DPS stats (such as haste or critical strike) are going to become mitigation stats for all plate tanks, rather than just paladins. I asked Ghostcrawler on Twitter about the future of avoidance and he said "it probably won't work the way it does now". The implication, for me, is that avoidance will still exist, but not on gear.
As for the topic, yeah; Vengeance is nonsense. It was brought in to deal with a non-existant problem, Blizzard found another solution to that, so then they tacked some active mitigation on top of it rather than just removing it.
It's the very definition of a self-licking lollipop.
It exists solely for its own sake.
My only beef is, when the damage dealing tank is gimping it for others, because in our raids its no issue really, but when im in lfr, or a dungeon trying to get some vp and some tank just wants to top the meters, causing the healer to go oom, kills us all and starts flaming the healer for not being good enough. Tanking might become boring but it has never been about dps - focus more on mitigation and cd yea but you cant say that dealing good dmg is what seperates a good tank from a bad tank. A good tank stays alive and makes sure his raid is not taking damage that he could take. A bad tank tries to cheese the meters on the expense of everybody else
This is probably the most important post of the thread. A lot of people are misunderstanding vengeance: Tanks do not top damage every fight, only high-damage fights. We certainly do not triple other people's dps unless the fight is ridiculously damage intensive for the total duration (eg. solo tanking Raden). Also, vengeance is VERY important for mitigation, as well. If you had vengeance caps or no vengeance at all, good luck with the current state of heroic horridon, iron qon, raden etc.
I had 1.3-1.5k steady dps with my warrior as soon as I gained Revenge. Both single target and AoE. Sounds like a bad tank if he let you out dps him.
On the vengeance thing; It's not a problem in low level if you ask me. The base damage is incredibly high, which results in tanks out dpsing everyone, especially warriors. If a tank doesn't have the highest dps, they certainly don't know how to maximize it. 1k dps at lvl 30 is not a strong feat.
About max level; I've actually never seen a tank out dps a regular damage dealer in single target unless their gear difference is very high and if it's in a heroic dungeon. Our DK tank tops 80k from what I've seen and he's the best geared player in our group (we're all below 530 at the moment though). We have a 510 lock that doesn't know his rotation at all and he's sitting at 80k on some fights, which is way below the rest of us.
Ra-den is proof it's already fucked up, tanks doing 500k+ single target while the best dps can't even manage 300k.
Personally, I think it's balanced perfect at 90, as it makes the tanks usually 5-10 on my dps meters for 25 mans in raids. I don't really have an issue with it there.
I do really wish they'd put more effort into making it more balanced at low levels though. I know it's hard to balance low levels for everything, but here is where the effort should be made. It just doesn't feel right when I level a tank and look at recount and notice I'm doing 70% of the group's damage by myself, while also having sufficient heals to heal myself without a healer. Most tank classes can pretty much just solo any instance they come across without even outleveling it up until 65-70 if they really felt like it, and some even past that.
Tanks are supposed to worry about their health and their ability to hold aggro on their target(s). this is a long established pair of facts.
Damage dealers are supposed to worry about their outgoing damage, and staying alive and not risking the well-being of the raid. again, these are well known facts.
if tanks do more damage than damage dealing classes, what's the point of damage dealing classes? why don't we just all roll brewmasters and take turns taunting the boss and doing awesome dps?
the point of the nerf vengeance argument is that it undermines damage dealers and makes them feel inferior, when it may or may not have anything to do with the tank's skill level, and may have more to do with standing in fire on purpose to shoot their vengeance up.
when i first hit 90 a day or 2 into the expansion and went prot so we could kill galleon, i was top dps by a large margin. i was shocked, and i quickly thought to myself, "it must not scale well, or else tanks are going to outdps the dps classes, and that would be stupid." lo and behold, months later, here we are, tanks purposefully standing in bad and doing 500k dps.