Is Vengeance Getting Out Of Control?

[foxHeart]

Take away the large damage and whats the difference between a good tank that can hold agro and a bad tank that can hold aggro?

Gonna take a wild guess here and say the difference is which is better at taking hits and in general, you know, tanking things well. lol

[Kuniku]

I Don't think tanks should be competing with DPS classes for damage output. If you drop their dps down lower tanks can still challenge each other for dps and can still min-max it if they want, but they shouldn't really be beating actual DPS classes IMO.

Much like when I leveld my disc priest and once I got atonement I was topping healing and damage meters while leveling - its just not right! =p

[fangless]

Vengeance isn't really a "fun" mechanic, you're just doing more damage because you get hit more. You aren't switching to a DPS rotation for some phase, and hitting a lot of cooldowns.

It's just a passive thing that suddenly makes you do 700k dps on trash/bosses -_-

Also part of the reason why dodge/parry are basically avoided, as tanking stats. Which is absolutely hilarious.

[Vasilisa]

And the fact that it helps killing bosses quicker is totally skipped, heh.

[Deleted]

I will remember this argument when some dps will be defending their healing/survival capabilities. I don't mind tanking warlock (who is a dps) who say they find it fun so why should other dps find a problem with me liking to deal damage as well? I can be useful while having fun, what's the problem with that?

There's no problem with you having fun with your role, the issue is if you were to say, role a tank for the sole purpose of dealing the most damage. It's just as ridiculous as it would be if a Warlock was at the top of healing done, assuming he somehow found a way to heal the rest of the raid.

I highly doubt Vengeance has increased the amount of tanks, the issue was never that people didn't find it fun, as a tank yourself you should know what it's like to sign up for a random dungeon alone and run with such people. The way those people treat you, if you don't already know exactly how to tank, is why lots of people who could tank choose not to, and why lots of people who try tanking give it up for a much easier role, DPS. But this wasn't the subject of the topic and I'm derailing the thread, so I'll try to get back on topic.

Using that logic we should take away any self healing from dps, and gut mistweaver / disc because healer's job is to heal, not to dps.
Which sounds like fun and logical game, except games changed so about time people would adapt to it.

You misunderstand me. I never said tanks shouldn't deal any kind of damage at all, I'm saying they shouldn't need to worry about how much they deal. Just as a healer should never feel that they need to push out more damage to kill the boss in time, because he's a healer. If he heals through damage, or manages to get some extra damage out inbetween the heals, that's great. But how fun would it be if you set a DPS requirement on healers as well?

DPS should of course have healing CD's but they should never out heal a healer, they should never be anywhere near the top of healing. Just as a tank never should be at the top of DPS.

[Deleted]

A tank should do half the dps of the worst damage dealer of the raid. As a tank, I truely hope they will nerf tanks dps to the ground, and work on the aggro so it isn't something that doesnt even exist.

You want to dps ? Play a damage dealer.

[Deleted]

And the fact that it helps killing bosses quicker is totally skipped, heh.

You don't think Blizzard takes the tank damage into consideration when they adjust the health bars of the bosses?

[Deleted]

Considering the MASSIVE tank shortage it's really stupid to ask for them being nerfed. Really, really stupid.

[Deleted]

Considering the MASSIVE tank shortage it's really stupid to ask for them being nerfed. Really, really stupid.

Even so Blizzard is nerfing Vengeance by a lot in the next patch, I think it caps at 25 % of your total health in 5.4? Vengeance didn't bring in any new people into tanking, it didn't make it any more fun, all it did was make them deal more damage. Sure, some who love big numbers might have liked it and picked up tanking, but I highly doubt they were an even noticeable number on the whole. If you truly want to bring in more tanks into the game then there are other issues that needs to be fixed. Some of them I hope Proving Grounds will solve.

Edit:

I was incorrect about the 25 % change, but not far off, here's the quote from GC:
"Going to try Vengeance cap at 30% health (down from 100%) in 10s and 50% of health in 25s. This is a big change, so might be 5.4, not 5.3."

https://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/sta...73711105376256

[Bepples]

It's just a passive thing that suddenly makes you do 700k dps on trash/bosses -_-

I love how throughout this thread the amount of damage that tanks do gets gradually more and more exaggerated to ridiculous levels.

[djtravitrav]

In this game in it's current state, complaining about the tank out damaging you is the last thing you should be concerned about.
a few points:

1. Dying as a tank is nearly impossible in the current raiding tier, as long as you are a skillful player. There is no reason not to gear for optimum dps. The old ideology around tanking during the vanilla-cata era is gone completely. It's a new game now, as long as you know what you're doing, you live through every boss mechanic.

2. There are no longer "dedicated tank healers" such as the holy paladin circa BC to ICC. Much of the healing a tank receives now is self supplied, paladin seal of insight, brewmaster guard/expel harm, death knight blood shield/death strike. The higher the vengeance, the more potent your self heals/absorbs are. To redesign vengeance, the developers would be required to redesign the way all of the healers heal YET AGAIN

3. There is satisfaction received when you min/max your character and know precisely which boss mechanics you can abuse to gain the most attack power to assist your raid to the fullest.

4. The proposed changes in 5.4 aren't even going to affect tanks in any real way. "Going to try Vengeance cap at 30% health (down from 100%) in 10s and 50% of health in 25s. This is a big change, so might be 5.4, not 5.3." First of all, the highest %health vengeance I have ever seen was on council, standing in sandstorm the entire encounter while tanking Sul+frost king+priest bitch, and the highest it went was 41% in 25man. Solo tanking Iron Qon heroic on 10m I got up to 28% vengeance at the highest. The 10m cap is much more realistic than the 25m cap is that they are proposing. But neither will really have an effect.

Most importantly:
There is a massive difference between the average tank (someone who doesn't really know any better, or thinks in the old traditional way "oh, my only job here is to not die, I don't have to be responsible for anything other than that" and someone like me who has multiple world rank 1 parses as both Prot paladin and Brewmaster. People like me aren't even playing the same game as the people who do just the bare minimum to survive.

[BukkaKid]

Of course it's out of control and it has been for a long long while. Out of all the threads concerning Vengeance that I've read, there has not been an actual legit "reason" Tanks have proposed as to why Vengeance is tuned/balanced.

You get to pull the same numbers as a DPS class for doing what exactly, standing and taking hits?...something Tanks should be doing anyway? I understand pulling big numbers is satisfying, hell I play a Hunter and alt a Rogue, but when Hybrid DPS -AND- Tanks can pull ahead of Pure DPS classes, something is wrong. And you have to be all sorts of delusional to not admit it.

What happens if Pure DPS classes get a buff like Vengeace? 2% of the damage we do gets added as AP/RAP? When the numbers DPS pulls far outshines Tank DPS would you honestly give a shit about Vengeance then?

You wouldn't, admit it. Tanks are only defending it so wholeheartedly because it IS broken and does need fixing.

[Deleted]

In this game in it's current state, complaining about the tank out damaging you is the last thing you should be concerned about.
a few points:

1. Dying as a tank is nearly impossible in the current raiding tier, as long as you are a skillful player. There is no reason not to gear for optimum dps. The old ideology around tanking during the vanilla-cata era is gone completely. It's a new game now, as long as you know what you're doing, you live through every boss mechanic.

2. There are no longer "dedicated tank healers" such as the holy paladin circa BC to ICC. Much of the healing a tank receives now is self supplied, paladin seal of insight, brewmaster guard/expel harm, death knight blood shield/death strike. The higher the vengeance, the more potent your self heals/absorbs are. To redesign vengeance, the developers would be required to redesign the way all of the healers heal YET AGAIN

3. There is satisfaction received when you min/max your character and know precisely which boss mechanics you can abuse to gain the most attack power to assist your raid to the fullest.

Most importantly:
There is a massive difference between the average tank (someone who doesn't really know any better, or thinks in the old traditional way "oh, my only job here is to not die, I don't have to be responsible for anything other than that" and someone like me who has multiple world rank 1 parses as both Prot paladin and Brewmaster. People like me aren't even playing the same game as the people who do just the bare minimum to survive.

1: If it's nearly impossible to die, even as a tank, I would say the mechanics are poorly thought out. Granted you should take much less damage if you use your defensive cooldowns correctly and avoid whatever damage you can, but if you fail on these things you should die very quickly. Notice the word should.

2: That's fine I guess, but it doesn't mean that tanks should focus on dealing more damage rather than taking less damage. The more damage the tank manage to soak up the more healers can focus on other things, that should be the tanks priority, not to start focusing on beating the berserk timer.

3: Yeah, no... Satisfaction from abusing the mechanics to gain attack power? This is exactly what's wrong with vengeance, and even Ghostcrawler hinted on this very thing...

4: A tanks responsibility should be more than to just not die, their job is to protect the group, thus their responsibility is to keep them alive...

[Simulacrum]

Of course it's out of control and it has been for a long long while. Out of all the threads concerning Vengeance that I've read, there has not been an actual legit "reason" Tanks have proposed as to why Vengeance is tuned/balanced.

You mean there have never been any legitimate arguments made against it.

[darkminaz]

i don't like the "lol i jump in voids with deff cooldowns for more dmg" part
but i do like the "i'm not afk and it matters what i press for dps/heal" as a tank

they schould just remove some spells like void zones etc from the "u get vengeance" to "move out there sucker you won't get anything out of it"
good tanks do good dps, hardly a problem when i see our deffpala #1 in dps .)

[Rexxr]

What do you guys think?

I'll start by informing you all that I have not tanked anything other than leveling dungeons or heroic 5-mans since the end of Lich King, but I think Vengeance is getting out of control.I understand what they're trying to accomplish, I really do, but anymore Vengeance seems to bet getting more and more ridiculous. They want tanks to be fun and engaging, and when I'm leveling my Guardian or my Brewmaster, I must admit that being top DPS - even on my single target encounters - kind of puts a smile on my face. Even in your level 90 heroics, challenge modes, and raids it's not uncommon to see tanks of any class doing DPS spec DPS.

To the best of my knowledge, they introduced Vengeance for pretty much two reasons - 1) To help tank threat scale better and 2) To make tanks more fun / desirable to play. I can tell you that from my perspective though, as I've recently been leveling a handful of toons at all different level ranges, going into a dungeon run as a DPS and seeing the tank do twice as much damage as you is pretty disheartening. Most DPS specs cannot hope to compete with tank damage whilst leveling, especially during AoE. Now, I realize that balance for everything but level 90 content is pretty much null and void, but it's not uncommon to run into similar issues in max level content. Maybe not as extreme but they are still there.

The tank's "job description" as taken from the online Getting Started guide is:


Nowhere in that description does it speak of dealing high amounts of damage, only that tanks "fight by outlasting." To me, that would imply they deal less damage but can take more punishment - your stereotypical knight in plate mail; doesn't strike as powerfully as a nimble rogue or cunning wizard, but can take hits that would down either of them.

With that mindset, if you were to approach this as a brand new player would it not raise questions as to why the protection spec warrior was doing more damage than yourself - a DPS spec? If it's a nuisance to myself, someone who's been playing off and on since Vanilla, then I can only imagine how irritating it could be to someone new.

My proposed solution would be to balance tanks around doing 1/3 to 1/2 the damage of what a DPS spec would do in the same content. Change Vengeance to, instead of granting AP, grant a higher percent of threat dealt as you take more damage. As the fight goes on, your threat continues to raise if you're tanking keeping DPS specs from overtaking you.

I know that some tanks love being so high on the charts, and that some will most likely flame me and remind me that low level content doesn't matter / count when balance is concerned. To that point though, I make a counterargument - With WoW losing more subs every quarter, realms dying, would it not be beneficial for them to do a tuning pass over the lower levels to try to keep the game as attractive to new players as possible? I'm not saying WoW is dying or some such nonsense, but I think few people could deny that the game desperately needs an influx of new blood. With the vast majority of players choosing DPS specs, doesn't it seem silly to make the guys who "Fight by outlasting their opponent" do nearly twice as much damage as them?

So, do you think Vengeance is getting out of control?

I do agree with PVP part, but in terms of PVE I think it is fine. When I leveled a tank in star wars it was fun to actually be able to quest via killing mobs in a timely fashion unlike wow in bc / wrath you just sat there and eventually killed the mobs which was key to questing. Yes my warriors shield slam is sometimes just funny but i know I can't solo a dungeon and they changed the mobs to handle the increased dps so what is the big stink, you sad that you "dps class is losing on recount to a tank". Answer gear up, gem better, and learn your class. Every raid i have been in with my brewmaster I was beet by each class. So it is not like dps classes are suffering.

[Deleted]

You mean there have never been any legitimate arguments made against it.

So tanks taking damage on purpose in order to deal more damage isn't a legitimate argument, even though Blizzard has acknowledged that it's an issue and one they attempt to fix? Gotcha.

[Vasilisa]

You don't think Blizzard takes the tank damage into consideration when they adjust the health bars of the bosses?

If you've read my previous posts you'd know that I'm not against toning it down to 30/50%. I'm against nerfing it to the ground and making tank dps not matter. Thought I still believe that vengeance nerf is not the perfect way, mechanic that punished the tanks taking unnecessary dmg on purpose. Though I'm yet to think about it :P

My comment was about this topic when this argument is avoided in most cases.

Do I want my dps matter? Yes I do. But I don't need it to be on top. For good tank 70% of good dps would be good enough. Vengeance just need some reworking because right now nerfing vengeance would nerf survival as well.

[Kuja]

I think the nerf will do it alone, but imo tanks should be doing about half of the damage they do now. If it would cause them to lose aggro, then buff the threat modifier of all attacks. It's just unreal to see tanks topping dps during every fight, especially aoe :P

[djtravitrav]

They have already implemented with the new heroic scenarios which were released a change in the way enemy ground aoe/dmg abilities affect vengeance, and to put it simply, they don't add to vengeance. I'm sure they will do the same with siege of orgrimmar boss fights as well. The only way possible to reach those levels of vengeance anyway is to be standing in shit and chaining cds.

and to chaozu, who doesn't seem to know what he's talking about, as a tank, the more damage you take, the more you are capable of preventing and healing. You really need to comprehend how attack power affects a tanks heals and absorbs and not just say the same old nonsense such as this gem "A tanks responsibility should be more than to just not die, their job is to protect the group, thus their responsibility is to keep them alive..."

You completely miss the entire point of raiding in this expansion. The highest responsibility for staying alive as the tank is yours alone. No longer are we COMPLETELY reliant on a healer to survive. A combined effort of the entire healing team provides somewhere between 40%-60% of the tank healing where the tank him/herself provides the other 60%-40%, numbers of course are entirely dependent on which boss fight it is and levels of vengeance.

So, no, you can't fucking do away with vengeance without completely reworking the entire balance of healing in the game. Every tank class was changed to active mitigation with MoP, and every tank was handed the responsibility to survive on their own with this new design. Vengeance is the only thing that makes this development model possible.

The game is better for it, it's really as simple as that, if you don't like seeing a tank ahead of you in damage, play more optimally. Maybe even line up your cooldowns and potions with bloodlust once in a while, you may see a performance increase.