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The only fights I topped dmg as a tank were Wind Lord (i think thats the guy with the adds in HoF) and Horridon due to being on the boss a lot and fighting lots of adds.
Single target, not so much. At lower levels tanks are #1 DPS even into the late 70s. I think the vengeance change in 5.4 might help tune down some of the ridiculousness of the monks ox shields and their dps.
Vengeance is only part of the problem, but I do think it needs a nerf on some level (hopefully after I level up my prot pally and get the lich king heroic mount lol) - the other half is that active mitigation is far better then regular mitigation (dodge and parry), to the point where you want to reforge out of dodge/parry gear or not even equip it. Active mitigation is a lot more interesting though then the old model, so I don't see this problem going away.
If the difference between me mashing 2 buttons (macro + SotR) and having max survivability and actually having a sort of priority system + pressing extra 4 or so buttons for the same dmg intake but a whole 25k dps i don't think a lot of people would even bother pushing dps.
Because if you're someone who is in current content heroics, you should know what vengeance does.
On topic, I simply don't understand the hate towards vengeance. You're not going to lose your DPS spot over another tank. That's not how vengeance works 'rotating tanks' for max vengeance doesn't work, they will all have a crap stack of vengeance.
The issue isn't vengeance. The issue is solo tanking. Show me a raden where he is not being solotanked. Show me a horridon tank rank who didn't solo tank him. Show me an iron Qon rank without solotanking. These, and other fights are made with the intention of only half uptime of vengeance on any given tank on any given time. If you reduce a tank, your vengeance on the other tank will skyrocket, and you will also gain another DPS.
The vengeance cap is useless, the only boss until now that actually brings you higher than it is raden and animus zerg, nothing else.
Blizzard should just get rid of the extra vengeance from getting crit (I'm abusing this too) and voidzones (same, I abuse it too); why shouldn't you use the tools you've got to work with. Bit really, as far as I've seen they're going to do just that. So far in DoO there are many mechanics that award you no vengeance at all, and they're working on debuffs that can't be removed by HoPs. Those two changes will go a long way to reduce tank damage.
And still, as a tank that's been tanking and raiding since vanilla, MoP made me fell in love even more with tanking, active mitigation was the best thing ever, and working around vengeance is even more fun. (Unless it's the blatantly OP voidzone/sit thing).
Enlighten me as to the problem you have with my post's logic rather than trying ask me a completely irrelevant question, please.
---------- Post added 2013-06-28 at 05:00 AM ----------
About at what difference (roughly) would you begin to prefer to take a DPS over another? (so for instance, 2 DPS that are 10k apart is probably not a large difference to confidently say 1 is better than another).
What about for tanks? (Again, these numbers don't have to be exact, just ballpark as to what order of magnitude we're looking at).
Last edited by nightfalls; 2013-06-28 at 05:01 AM.
Until now, they haven't been.
I've seen a few people in this thread saying to nerf veng and bring back threat as a real mechanic, anyone that thinks that could be in anyway fun for more than a fraction of tanks that happen to be at just the correct gear level relative to the dps, don't have a clue how threat works.
Would be a pain to scale def abilities with stamina.
Tanks shouldnt do less dps by default. A good tank should still be able to beat an average dps..
Why change something that isnt broken, move threat boost to vengance ??
Threat is a horrible boring mechanic and i remember when it did matter, no ty.
You cant give AM a more important role lol, you play dps ?
Sure, give more fun tank encounters, im all for it.
Tanking has never been about threat and stayin alive, its the foundation but extremely little part of it, focus tanking into that and most tank will quit once again (hi cata queues)
Expanding on why attempting to make threat challenging is a terrible idea.
Tank A is well geared and is raiding with average geared dps and a hunter + rogue
Tank B is under geared and raiding with well geared dps non of which are hunters/rogues
If you make it challenging for tank A to hold aggro you make it impossible for tank B to keep it without the dps throttling there dmg.
Conversely if you balance threat around it been challenging for tank B it becomes faceroll boring for tank A
And that's without even bringing skill into it which would just magnify the problem, raids with inexperienced tanks are already handicapped and reducing the amount of dmg there dps players can do due to threat won't be fun for anyone.
I'm sorry but tanks were out dps'ing dps in regular and leveling dungeons LONG before vengeance.
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The sad part is that even for 25's, paladins and monks are better.
Overall though, I do think it's not completely bad. At the very least, for a role as important as it is, all tanks are capable of tanking all of the end-tier heroic content in guilds that clear at a fairly reasonable rate.
---------- Post added 2013-06-28 at 04:36 AM ----------
Oh that's right they'll all pull around 50-60k, because vengeance only applies to people taking large amounts of damage. Stacking 25 brewmasters isnt suddenly going to give you 25 people pulling 300k dps. Please understand how a mechanic works before posting crap like this.
Last edited by Saiyoran; 2013-06-28 at 09:37 AM.
On Horridon, Tortos, Jikun, Durumu and RaDen it's pretty damn important you get it right at least as a prot pally, not saying it's massively hard just reasonably challenging while doing everything else that's needed.
I definitely agree that tanks doing competitive dps is fun and important though, because if we only needed to worry about our AM our rotations would become much less engaging.