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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Meledelion View Post
    I also don't request for all dungeons to be tuned to my liking but you need hard content to keep the more serious players in the game. People like me, my brother, my friends and strife & co are the ones who "guide" the community, because we take min-maxing seriously.
    The popular gs+axe/mace build from strife would never have been run by so many people if strife didn't play.

    The same thing happens on this forum and on reddit. Who are the people who give advice regarding builds and give feedback as to why x,y,z would probably be better? Min-maxers.

    Strife quit the game and a lot of people have lost "guidance". Catering only to casual players means that they will lose people who give general directions. I've never been a fan of his AH build (no need to be that tanky) but it helped people get comfortable and then later realise that you don't need that much survivability

    What I actually do want is content that is engaging to people like me. I don't want all content to be on the level I desire since that is the polar opposite of what a-net does now and only catering to one part of your costumers is a very bad idea.
    I have done a bit of theory crafting in the past when I was still playing WOW but there is certainly no need for theory crafters in GW2 which I think is a good thing. Min/Maxing is nice and gives people som extra goals but as long as it's not mandatory then I am happy. The problem with having tougher dungeons is that it flies in the face of the GW2 design where everyone is included. The moment you start making things really tough, you exclude a lot of people and then the development costs will increase because you have to build 2 sets of content. About the best I think they can do is to take something like fractals and introduce new mechanics to the bosses at higher levels. People complain that Fractals is too easy. That's because the difficulty increase is gradual. Jumping from level 1 to level 50 would have made level 50 really tough for people. That's why new mechanics at higher levels might be better. Extra mechanic 1 introduced at level 10, next on at level 20, etc.

    Also, regarding the dungeons, I still remember people complaining in the beginning how difficult the dungeons were in GW2. Now, because people have "practiced" them a lot, they are easy. WOW has gear checks so often you need to increase gear to get past certain points. GW2 is only a skill check so once you have learnt a boss it becomes trivial. The only way to get tougher fights is to have new fights and after a period of time, those will also become trivial. The only way to prolong that is to make gear count more or to have a "no one can fail" mentaility. Neither of these will fit into GW2 where a person should be able to skip 6 months come back and not have to suddenly "catch up".

    Your last point is contradictory, BTW. You can't have exclusive content without it being exclusive.

  2. #22
    Warchief Maarius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meledelion View Post
    Soloing stuff isn't hard at all. It comes down to 3things.
    it is for most players. I agree that there should be content for guys like you so that these "most" players have something to work towards too, balancing the standard-version of dungeons to your level would be insane imho. Saying that the new dungeon isn't hard when I see me and my friends having quite challenging encounters and then seeing you calling people who have problems casuals (kind of an insult since we play the game a lot) is generalization at it's worst.
    Last edited by Maarius; 2013-06-28 at 10:25 AM.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Gray_Matter View Post
    snip
    The reason why fractal isn't hard is because it doesn't get harder past the introduction of lvl 10+. Agony is introduced and some other minor mechanic changes (golem in the asura fractal for instance). The rest of the "difficutly" comes from more foes with more health. That's not adding difficulty at all, that's giving harsher punishment when failing. Adding difficulty would be adding more mechanics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Meledelion View Post
    Imagine a simple game: you have a pong pallet but instead of hitting the ball you have to avoid it. After two hits your pallet breaks. Now make the pallet break in one hit. It's equally hard before as after the change so the difficulty didn't increase. Instead let's say there's two balls you need to dodge, now difficulty has increased.
    There's no "need" to theorycraft in GW2, I agree however that doesn't mean that having a good build and team setup won't help. One of the blows to my face is the fact that a-net doesn't even bother to make an explorer mode for the temp dungeons. It can't be that hard...

    People complained, I didn't. I did ac at lvl 30 ac exp at 35 CM at 40 cm explo at 48 (with 3people who were lvl 42ish) and I never complained. The dungeons were buggy as hell but we powered through and after 3h we cleared them...

    I don't really see the contradiction. I want content that caters to me, however I don't want content that caters exclusively to me...

    Quote Originally Posted by Maarius View Post
    it is for most players. I agree that there should be content for guys like you so that these "most" players have something to work towards too, balancing the standard-version of dungeons to your level would be insane imho. Saying that the new dungeon isn't hard when I see me and my friends having quite challenging encounters and then seeing you calling people who have problems casuals (kind of an insult since we play the game a lot) is generalization at it's worst.
    I didn't mean to insult anyone so I apologize. I agree that balancing standard dungeons to my liking isn't a good idea.
    When I talk about casuals I mainly talk about people with a certain mind-set and not someone who dedicates less time to something as me or others. Most people are casuals in my eyes (casual isn't an insult btw, it's like calling someone a hobbyist) due to the fact that they want to put in the effort to find out what things are better than others. To simplify my view (a lot) anyone who doesn't care about min-maxing is a casual.

    I just downed the first boss so if anyone is interested I can dump the video somewhere...
    Last edited by Meledelion; 2013-06-28 at 10:44 AM.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meledelion View Post
    I didn't mean to insult anyone so I apologize. I agree that balancing standard dungeons to my liking isn't a good idea.
    When I talk about casuals I mainly talk about people with a certain mind-set and not someone who dedicates less time to something as me or others. Most people are casuals in my eyes (casual isn't an insult btw, it's like calling someone a hobbyist) due to the fact that they want to put in the effort to find out what things are better than others. To simplify my view (a lot) anyone who doesn't care about min-maxing is a casual.

    I just downed the first boss so if anyone is interested I can dump the video somewhere...
    well Anets first intention was to make explorable modes damn hard, they stated somewhere in the past that even they couldn't finish one of those... It would have been raidlike content for small groups while people like me would finish the story mode and then have something to work towards to. The thing is: explorable modes aren't this way anymore. They are pretty much the same as story mode in difficulty imho (as I experienced those), if not even easier. Changing it now to "damn hard" would alienate players since they know those modes to be easy farmable. Everyone who wanted the skins to show off that they are good players got those with little more effort than storydungeon completion.

    What I would suggest: Hard Mode for explorables with new mechanics and (important!) new skins and other rewards. I can't believe that they increased the dungeon tokens when explorables where the same as storymode. Explorables were meant as hard mode, but they aren't really. Seeing how people burn through those with Berserker gear and without the need of any Vitality/Toughness is really depressing to me.

    So yeah, I don't want explorables to become damn hard because of the reasons I stated (bold), but I'd love to see hard mode versions implemented.



    Edit: yeah, I'd love to see that solo-vid. Just curious how you'd play that.
    Last edited by Maarius; 2013-06-28 at 11:16 AM.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Meledelion View Post
    The reason why fractal isn't hard is because it doesn't get harder past the introduction of lvl 10+. Agony is introduced and some other minor mechanic changes (golem in the asura fractal for instance). The rest of the "difficutly" comes from more foes with more health. That's not adding difficulty at all, that's giving harsher punishment when failing. Adding difficulty would be adding more mechanics.
    That's basically what I was saying. They can only do that sort of thing with Fractals liking adding a mechanic at level X. My point is more that even that won't help. It helps for a certain period of time until you have learned the new mechanic and then easy again. It's like driving a car. People learning in the beginning would swear that it's hard. After a few months behind the wheel, people are doing their make up and eating burgers while they drive.

    I have said it before but I will say it again for those who don't know. Firelands killed my guild. The whole guild. There is probably 2 players still playing out of 20 odd because of that raid. It was completely unforgiving and casual players need to be forgiven if they make the odd mistake. The same problem could arise with GW2 if they were to introduce "exclusive" content. The only type of gating that occur should be through something like fractals where the natural progression is the gate. Casual players, like those in my WOW guild, made mistakes. Often it was the same person but after 10 attempts even the better players start making mistakes. If they were to keep story mode as they are and then make explorables hellish tough then the gap between the two is too big. Casual players wouldn't be able to make the jump and there is no difficulty progression for them. Doing world boss X for the 50th time is boring as hell, so is doing story mode x. In other words, even casuals would want to be able to make a jump to a higher level if it was there. They could add another layer Story, Explorable, Nightmare but even then it wouldn't take long for the serious people to start complaining again that it's too easy. They learn the mechanics and it becomes a doddle. That's why I think that fractals offers the best solution with a new mechanic being added every 10 levels (or 20). Casuals might get to 20 or even 30 over a number of months and they would feel like they are accomplishing something (Two weeks ago I was on level 15 and now it's level 17 or something like that). The better/more serious players would also have their work cut out for them at level 50 because they would be dealing with 5 extra mechanics at that point. Even the best players will have a tough time then. For exampe, on the dredge fractal, the boss could pull the person at the top off periodically after level 10 and at level 20, he could put a lava ring around a player for 10 seconds to prevent them from doing anything for a bit. Maybe an AOE knock down ability gets added at 30 for all players, etc.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-28 at 11:40 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Maarius View Post
    What I would suggest: Hard Mode for explorables with new mechanics and (important!) new skins and other rewards. I can't believe that they increased the dungeon tokens when explorables where the same as storymode. Explorables were meant as hard mode, but they aren't really. Seeing how people burn through those with Berserker gear and without the need of any Vitality/Toughness is really depressing to me.
    There needs to be a reasonable jump between the two. You can't put the second one at a level that destroys casuals. Look at what Blizzard is trying to accomplish in WOW with their flex raids. If the skill jump between things is too high then people will quit or stop doing dungeons (if A/Net is lucky).

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray_Matter View Post

    There needs to be a reasonable jump between the two. You can't put the second one at a level that destroys casuals. Look at what Blizzard is trying to accomplish in WOW with their flex raids. If the skill jump between things is too high then people will quit or stop doing dungeons (if A/Net is lucky).
    I like your idea of fractal levels for dungeons too, I'd prefer that. I would decrease the ranks though, so that you jump from 0 to 5, from 5 to 10 and so on. With meaningful mechanic-changes at each step. So that you don't have to farm/grind those dungeons to increase your rank. Or give people the option to choose their entry-rank freely... if they can beat it they have earned the rewards.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Maarius View Post
    I like your idea of fractal levels for dungeons too, I'd prefer that. I would decrease the ranks though, so that you jump from 0 to 5, from 5 to 10 and so on. With meaningful mechanic-changes at each step. So that you don't have to farm/grind those dungeons to increase your rank. Or give people the option to choose their entry-rank freely... if they can beat it they have earned the rewards.
    It would work but I think the biggest problem is that a lot of people don't like the idea of progression in any form in GW2. Keeping it in fractals would keep the progression in a single place.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray_Matter View Post
    It would work but I think the biggest problem is that a lot of people don't like the idea of progression in any form in GW2. Keeping it in fractals would keep the progression in a single place.
    well as long as each dungeon has it's own progression which isn't required to do other dungeons high levels, it should be no problem.

  9. #29
    Mhh looks like it's impossible to dodge the shadowshot thingy from the last boss, if that's the case it's impossible to solo the dungeon...

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meledelion View Post
    Mhh looks like it's impossible to dodge the shadowshot thingy from the last boss, if that's the case it's impossible to solo the dungeon...
    maybe a reflect (2nd hand axe)?

  11. #31
    Using it but then you're stationary and you die from aoe. Not giving up yet though

    If I'm correct and it's impossible to dodge, I feel cheated by a-net... Skill should conquer all imo.
    Last edited by Meledelion; 2013-06-28 at 12:56 PM.

  12. #32
    I don't know why people are acting all incredulous over someone talking about soloing a dungeon. It's not exactly hard, and the mechanics of the game practically encourage it. Fairly sure everything in the game that doesn't absolutely demand more than one person in some way (stand on these 3 triggers!) has been soloed. (With videos!)

    Even my lazy butt has soloed several champions and a good chunk of several instances.

    Edit: And no, don't give me the speech about "special players" or some nonsense. Aside from some extreme handicap of some kind, any human is capable of doing just about anything that the "best" players do in MMO's...especially in GW2. This isn't the Olympics or something.
    Last edited by Bovinity Divinity; 2013-06-28 at 01:33 PM.

  13. #33
    Scarab Lord Karizee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    I don't know why people are acting all incredulous over someone talking about soloing a dungeon. It's not exactly hard, and the mechanics of the game practically encourage it. Fairly sure everything in the game that doesn't absolutely demand more than one person in some way (stand on these 3 triggers!) has been soloed. (With videos!)

    Even my lazy butt has soloed several champions and a good chunk of several instances.

    Edit: And no, don't give me the speech about "special players" or some nonsense. Aside from some extreme handicap of some kind, any human is capable of doing just about anything that the "best" players do in MMO's...especially in GW2. This isn't the Olympics or something.

    Lol, no one is acting incredulous, we were calling bullshit since he said it was so easy he could solo it.

    The mechanics of this dungeon are reminiscent of Heroic Halion with the 2 cutters, only in this dungeon one of the cutters is moving at a different speed than the other. Just a reminder, to date less than 5000 guilds have done H Halion.

    The Mai Trin encounter is impossible to solo because of her Pistol Shot. I know of one team that was able to defeat it with 4 players but that dungeon is extremely difficult for the average player. He is saying he wants it harder, my question is why on earth would they want to make content that no one can defeat? Do you see the stupidity of that kind of design?
    Who knows more of gods than I? Horse gods and fire gods, gods made of gold with gemstone eyes, gods carved of cedar wood, gods chiseled into mountains, gods of empty air... I know them all.
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  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Karizee View Post
    Lol, no one is acting incredulous, we were calling bullshit since he said it was so easy he could solo it.

    The mechanics of this dungeon are reminiscent of Heroic Halion with the 2 cutters, only in this dungeon one of the cutters is moving at a different speed than the other. Just a reminder, to date less than 5000 guilds have done H Halion.

    The Mai Trin encounter is impossible to solo because of her Pistol Shot. I know of one team that was able to defeat it with 4 players but that dungeon is extremely difficult for the average player. He is saying he wants it harder, my question is why on earth would they want to make content that no one can defeat? Do you see the stupidity of that kind of design?
    The "hard boss" you're refering to is already dead, solo by me and I can give you a video if you want...

    All trash is also dead so The Darkitecht is also proven wrong (I also have video proof of this...) and I've found a way to deal dmg to mai (best try so far is 80%) so it seems possible to solo that fight as well, just need more time

  15. #35
    Lol, no one is acting incredulous, we were calling bullshit since he said it was so easy he could solo it.
    That's sorta what incredulous means.

    Just a reminder, less than 5000 guilds have done H Halion.
    Plenty of people pugged H-Halion 10m, at least. In WoW it's not always that the content is too hard for people, it's that the path to the content in question is simply too tedious. (Big reason why I just stopped bothering.)

    Like I said, most content in GW2 is designed such that it's soloable. It's just how the game mechanics work. And just because a group wipes to something doesn't mean it can't be soloed.

  16. #36
    Scarab Lord Karizee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meledelion View Post
    The "hard boss" you're refering to is already dead, solo by me and I can give you a video if you want...

    All trash is also dead so The Darkitecht is also proven wrong (I also have video proof of this...) and I've found a way to deal dmg to mai (best try so far is 80%) so it seems possible to solo that fight as well, just need more time

    Yes, and I had no problem keeping out of the cutters in H Halion either. It was getting a team coordinated enough for everyone to stay out of the cutters that was the issue.
    Who knows more of gods than I? Horse gods and fire gods, gods made of gold with gemstone eyes, gods carved of cedar wood, gods chiseled into mountains, gods of empty air... I know them all.
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  17. #37
    Yes, and I had no problem keeping out of the cutters in H Halion either. It was getting a team coordinated enough for everyone to stay out of the cutters that was the issue.
    But that's not what this topic is about at all.

  18. #38
    Scarab Lord Karizee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    But that's not what this topic is about at all.
    He is saying that the boss isn't difficult since he could solo it, I'm saying he eliminated the difficulty by going solo.

    It's a challenging dungeon. Challenging in a good way. It's not meant to be something you bang on for months before you get good enough gear to beat it, it's about player skill. Meledion professes to be a skilled player. Don't know, never seen in him in action but I'll take his word. I'm a skilled player. A skilled team (after a few attempts to learn it) can beat this dungeon since there are no gear checks. However the average player that cried over zandoms being too hard is finding this dungeon excruciatingly difficult.
    Who knows more of gods than I? Horse gods and fire gods, gods made of gold with gemstone eyes, gods carved of cedar wood, gods chiseled into mountains, gods of empty air... I know them all.
    ~Euron "Crow's Eye" Greyjoy

  19. #39
    However the average player that cried over zandoms being too hard is finding this dungeon excruciatingly difficult.
    People ALWAYS do that with new content. People did it with the original dungeons. Hell, people did it with MoP 5-mans for some insane reason.

    For some people, "OMG it's too hard" is the initial, default reaction to just about anything they're presented with. It's just how they behave. Some people are the exact opposite and look at almost anything they're presented with and say, "I can do that!"

  20. #40
    Karizee, I just got the boss down to less than 50% solo. I'm gonna go eat now and don't feel like clearing everything again but we both know that nothing changes in the fight so it's possible to solo.

    I'll probably DC due to inactivity but if you want I can send you the clip of me soloing the boss to 50%

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