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  1. #21
    As no one actually answered the original question from the OP I will.

    In terms of 2h priorities nothing much has changed for us in MoP. But you will want to prioritize procs on Oblit so much more than what was previously required.
    For example wasting a good few procs wasn't that bad prior to MoP but considering the disparity in damage that both FS and Oblit have between each other you can't go throwing procs away to do competitive damage.

    As a couple have mentioned Sims on patchwerk conditions do not favour us greatly this tier, mainly down to no down right abuse-able trinkets like 100% crit for casters or RoO for agi's. Though under real world conditions DKs are still favourable you just need to really push the boat out to be able to match say a mage or lock in a fair scenario.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by GenesisZero View Post
    For example wasting a good few procs wasn't that bad prior to MoP but considering the disparity in damage that both FS and Oblit have between each other you can't go throwing procs away to do competitive damage.
    Except that "gaming" KM procs has been conclusively and thoroughly demonstrated to end up in a DPS loss in all but the most rare of occurances.

    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...you-feel-lucky
    Last edited by Skarssen; 2013-06-28 at 11:37 AM.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Skarssen View Post
    Except that "gaming" KM procs has been conclusively and thoroughly demonstrated to end up in a DPS loss in all but the most rare of occurances.

    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...you-feel-lucky
    Couple things that I do to make it profitable -

    1. Get a swing timer (quartz build-in one is pretty good).
    2. Don't wait 3+ secs that most people think they should be doing.
    3. Look at your resources.

    To expand on that if you use a swing timer and know what you are looking for best case scenario is that you are going line up a KM-Oblit perfectly. Next I wouldn't wait for the 3+ secs for the oblit, unless I wouldn't waste any resources in doing so.

    Good time to save KM for oblit w/o wasting resources -

    1. You won't cap runes wasting regen time in waiting.
    2. You won't cap RP excessively
    3. You won't be wasting a Rime Proc.

    In reality you don't waste anything in waiting if you match the above criteria you just delay your abilities slightly for a better line-up.

    I also skimmed thought the post and there are a couple problems I see, for one its based around the idea that you are in 509 gear and that you would also have more mastery that you would want (this was really only mentioned in the final section but it holds true). Assuming you gear right you take as very little mastery as possible and focus on making Oblit the truck-dealing damage maker that it should be. The post also talks about only playing one or the other, there are times when both storing and not storing would have there times to shine.

    And after another skim he supports both sides in the argument, even in is answer section. He would recommend otherwise but he doesn't deny that it can be a gain.


    I currently sit on 517 with a 516 weapon, in my situation I can confidently say that my KM-FS over KM-Oblit deals 50% less damage really wasting the proc (Gemming for Str over haste). In the right situation its much easier to get a gain out of storing if you do it right.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by GenesisZero View Post
    I also skimmed thought the post and there are a couple problems I see, for one its based around the idea that you are in 509 gear and that you would also have more mastery that you would want (this was really only mentioned in the final section but it holds true). Assuming you gear right you take as very little mastery as possible and focus on making Oblit the truck-dealing damage maker that it should be. The post also talks about only playing one or the other, there are times when both storing and not storing would have there times to shine.
    Skimming is probably not the best route here. :P

    The i509 set was used because the post was written back in 5.0 or 5.1, I don't remember which. While I'm aware this section has not been updated, let's just think about it before you so casually dismiss it for that reason.

    Firstly, as you gear up, what happens? All of your stats increase, including those for which you do not actively gear (item stat allocation increases every tier). So, no, to conclude that there is any favoritism toward mastery rating is a misinterpretation. Even with reforging out of it, you will likely still end up with more mastery than the previous tier. E.g., do you have more than 3k mastery rating?

    Secondly, let's think about what increasing ilevel will do. As strength increases, does the ratio of FS/OB damage change? No, because both are based entirely off of %weapon damage. What about haste? No. Crit? No. Mastery? Yes, in favor of FS. So no gearing strategy, except losing mastery, will raise the gain from a KM-OB relative to KM-FS. Yes, haste also increases KM procs. However, think about your timing to use KM: as you increase your haste, the window to use KM without causing waste shrinks at the same rate as the KM interval decreases--thus, no net change. You increase your KM procs by 5% but you have 5% less time to use those procs, for example. Of course, this relationship will hold until you have enough haste to GCD cap (resource cap), after which point stalling properly without wasting resources becomes significantly harder (or impossible). Thus, the gain is lessened, because less opportunities exist.

    That being said, my sim is not wasting resources while stalling for KM-OB. So, for your comment about it only using one method, I'm genuinely curious how you think this is a deficiency. If you agree that a KM-OB does more damage than a KM-FS, and no resources are wasted during stalling (i.e. no loss), then how is not stalling, for any duration, going to be better? That doesn't add up. Secondly, again if no resources are lost in the sim, how do you think your method of storing will turn out better (and, more specifically, what is different about your method)? This is the upper bound, and the best-case scenario is within what a realistic statistical variance would be.

    Quote Originally Posted by GenesisZero View Post
    I currently sit on 517 with a 516 weapon, in my situation I can confidently say that my KM-FS over KM-Oblit deals 50% less damage really wasting the proc (Gemming for Str over haste). In the right situation its much easier to get a gain out of storing if you do it right.
    Just to point it out, in that sim, a KM-FS does roughly 53% of the damage of a KM-OB.
    "I have it all simmed."
    Euliat

  5. #25
    Theorycrafting has basically determined that, even at a min-max kind of proc gaming, using swing timers etc., you'll end up with less than a 1% increase in dps, and the loss of dps you get from screwing it up, and the difficulty of doing it successfully, makes it so it almost isn't even worth it in the first place. If you're really comfortable with the rotation, enough that you don't mind waiting a half second or so for a swing timer, then go for it, otherwise it's not really worth the time.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Samsarathedk View Post
    *Wonders why he's beating mages, locks, hunters, pallies, etc and ranking on a continual as dw when frost is supposedly the absolute worst dps spec in the entire game right now beside arms*
    I consistently rank top 25 as frost and am usually around 8 or 10 on my raid meters depending on the fight. Ranked #8 on Iron quan with 156k. Rogue did 201k.
    Last edited by Faids; 2013-07-01 at 10:35 AM.

  7. #27
    Herald of the Titans Darkfriend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faids View Post
    I consistently rank top 25 as frost and am usually around 8 or 10 on my raid meters depending on the fight. Ranked #8 on Iron quan with 156k. Rogue did 201k.
    156k sounds really low. I did 154k as a warrior, and that was with waiting over 2 minutes for CDs with no or little uptime on boss.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by GenesisZero View Post
    Couple things that I do to make it profitable - <snip>.
    Sitting on KM procs so that you can OB for 3 secs wastes GCDs, GCDs which could have been filled w/ as many as 3 FS, doing as much as 1 1/2 times the damage of OB and possibly overwriting/losing new KM procs in the process.

    Get a swing timer, if you can't OB on KM procs before your next auto swing use FS. Period.

  9. #29
    The Patient Nedda's Avatar
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    Just a reminder: with 5.4's tier 16 2pc bonus we are probably going to have to use every KM proc asap anyway since the stacking buff only lasts 6 seconds. This might also favor DW considerably.

  10. #30
    i was loosing the buff when i tried it in during ptr encounters as DW but could maintain anywhere from 6 to 10 as 2H frost easily. I blame haste diff for km procs.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Nedda View Post
    Just a reminder: with 5.4's tier 16 2pc bonus we are probably going to have to use every KM proc asap anyway since the stacking buff only lasts 6 seconds. This might also favor DW considerably.
    Oh that's awesome...I know this is a frost thread but thats basically shitting on unholy dks. SD procs a lot less than KM.

    I just hope for both specs that they dont balance the "fix to the dps" to set bonuses.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by valliant13 View Post
    Oh that's awesome...I know this is a frost thread but thats basically shitting on unholy dks. SD procs a lot less than KM.

    I just hope for both specs that they dont balance the "fix to the dps" to set bonuses.
    GC has intimated that they would rather try out different ideas via tier set bonuses rather than alter core mechanics, so we may indeed see these bandaid fixes for both specs. Unholy is too dependent upon Festerblight for damage right now, and frost just plain stinks. Here's to hoping we see a "numbers" pass on the PTR that addresses these problems soon.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Skarssen View Post
    GC has intimated that they would rather try out different ideas via tier set bonuses rather than alter core mechanics, so we may indeed see these bandaid fixes for both specs. Unholy is too dependent upon Festerblight for damage right now, and frost just plain stinks. Here's to hoping we see a "numbers" pass on the PTR that addresses these problems soon.
    Yea that numbers pass needs to happen. Frost scales like shit and unholy without festerblight is almost as bad as frost.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Nedda View Post
    Just a reminder: with 5.4's tier 16 2pc bonus we are probably going to have to use every KM proc asap anyway since the stacking buff only lasts 6 seconds. This might also favor DW considerably.
    We'll see.

    For two hand frost, the stacking haste will make a world of difference. So much that I believe burning every KM you get as 2h will end up being superior. That's a lot of haste to be had, which means you'll be churning out that many more Obliterates, and also autoattacking that much faster.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkfriend View Post
    156k sounds really low. I did 154k as a warrior, and that was with waiting over 2 minutes for CDs with no or little uptime on boss.
    156k is low and it is #8 rank for that fight. My point.

  16. #36
    Stop again with those "normal" kill logs, doesn't really help at this point of the expansion. No one on hc progression does normal bosses anymore thus the numbers overall are low since only people with very average gear/gameplay still compete.

    Also frost is fine in normal because it still scales correctly, but get into hc and u'll get outdps fast once even if you have the best weapons, nothing can increase ur dps anymore.

    Am a frost lover since cata (esp DW see my post on page 1), even been frost until my first hc lei shen kill but its scales so badly atm theres no reason to continue into it unless your guild doesn't care.

    Normal modes u could be tank specced considering the amount of dps needed to kill each boss <.<.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Samsarathedk View Post
    Replying to all comments in this post:

    The sole point that I attempted to make is this: Frost is not a terrible spec and can be played to effectively compete with other dps classes. Does it take more work than say festerblight or traditional unholy/ is sometimes at the mercy of rng? Sure! But some people perform more effectively with a specific spec which may not be the flavor of the week and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that whatsoever. Furthermore, I even stated that dps dks as a whole could use some love but that certainly does not mean that frost "sucks" "stinks" "is garbage" "is the worst dps spec behind arms" etc. It simply means that it is not the bandwagon spec at the moment. Lastly, skill>spec plain and simple.
    From what I've experienced, Unholy is not just the better spec, but it's also by far the easier one to play in a raid environment. Watching for procs constantly takes your concentration off of what's going on. If you can raid well as a Frost DK, you can play anything. Unholy is a finesse spec which has you planning the entire fight starting from the beginning, but the priority by which you use your abilities is more predictable. Nothing ever really happens to upset your rotation.

    With the abilities your ghoul gets while transformed, you can provide better utility as well (extra stun and interrupt).

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Tarazet View Post
    From what I've experienced, Unholy is not just the better spec, but it's also by far the easier one to play in a raid environment. Watching for procs constantly takes your concentration off of what's going on. If you can raid well as a Frost DK, you can play anything. Unholy is a finesse spec which has you planning the entire fight starting from the beginning, but the priority by which you use your abilities is more predictable. Nothing ever really happens to upset your rotation.

    With the abilities your ghoul gets while transformed, you can provide better utility as well (extra stun and interrupt).
    sorry no, frost is not harder to play. They are both easy but unholy requires more skill sorry. To not let your diseases fall off or rewritten actually takes more than planning. You actually need to know when to hit certain buttons. Frost is just reactive to your procs and not at all hard. It is insanely button mashy now. if this was 3.3.3 I would agree but ever since 4.1 the frost spec has been the simpleton spec to play.

  19. #39
    The Patient Nedda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by valliant13 View Post
    sorry no, frost is not harder to play. They are both easy but unholy requires more skill sorry. To not let your diseases fall off or rewritten actually takes more than planning. You actually need to know when to hit certain buttons. Frost is just reactive to your procs and not at all hard. It is insanely button mashy now. if this was 3.3.3 I would agree but ever since 4.1 the frost spec has been the simpleton spec to play.
    I kinda agree with this (being world #1 frost on 4/13 hc fights, rest ~5ish) but the main difference is that with unholy you actually CAN plan ahead. With frost you need to execute every second of the fight perfectly with sometimes only very few hundreds of milliseconds to choose your next action.

    By the way we just tested Malkorok 10-man with (scaled) ilvl 540 and I was #1 of the raid which differs very much from my experiences on live.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Nedda View Post
    I kinda agree with this (being world #1 frost on 4/13 hc fights, rest ~5ish) but the main difference is that with unholy you actually CAN plan ahead. With frost you need to execute every second of the fight perfectly with sometimes only very few hundreds of milliseconds to choose your next action.
    That's kind of what I was getting at. There is still difficulty to playing Unholy, but it's more in terms of having a good game plan for the encounter and executing it. At least for me, it leaves more room to watch the scenery and react to changing raid conditions. Frost is a twitch-reaction spec and you don't know what's coming next.

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