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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Lyd View Post
    These scenarios are partly what I'm talking about, the author himself mentions a 1.16% DPS increase (with 509 gear) although I've found it to be higher in practice today (~5%+?). Anyhow, you should be able to adjust for these two scenarios accordingly and see an increased ratio on amount of OB-crits as opposed to OB-noncrit (about ~65:35), while still keeping resources wasted to a minimum.
    If you're seeing a 5% gain from stalling, I highly suggest you reevaluate how well you perform the default priority.
    "I have it all simmed."
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  2. #62
    Herald of the Titans Darkfriend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Murdos View Post
    You're trying to Argue that Fury has a higher skillcap then Frost, when Fury's actual rotational fluidity is VASTLY impacted by GEAR, not skill. You literally cannot press enough buttons to be 'good' without gear to support the crit rating for enrage uptime, this deep-sixes your entire arguement. Skill enters the equation LAST for fury, it's all about getting enough unbuffed crit to generate enrage procs with a higher then 50% uptime. There's no skill involved with that, it's a purely mathmatical exercise.

    Your ARGUMENT is inherently flawed because you picked a class to compare that has more rotational distribution through gear then the other. Frost 2H has NOTHING that compares to that, because our full rotational abilities are available every so many seconds independent of gear; while Fury like Retribution Paladins and Fire Mages, are ROTATIONALLY DEPENDENT ON GEAR, not SKILL DEPENDENT.

    You could be the best fury warrior in the world, but without 25% crit you're going to have a bad time. Unlike 2H frost, where Haste just makes it go faster, Haste does not make Obliterate light up magically on a 50% chance. It just makes it go faster.
    *facepalm*

    We already addressed the gear issue. It's not relevant. It's completely aside. The scenario logically assumes equal geared for both sets. Part of the DPS increase is obviously from scaling, again addressed and set aside as not relevant. The other part, the main part of the argument, is that skill makes a larger DPS increase for one class than another.

    That is the crux of the argument, which you have not disputed. Skill matters more for some classes than others.

    It would be STUPID to compare dissimilar factors, like gear. OBVIOUSLY gear matters, but we're assuming equal gear.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkfriend View Post

    It would be STUPID to compare dissimilar factors, like gear. OBVIOUSLY gear matters, but we're assuming equal gear.
    Which is the problem, Fury's skillcap doesn't come into play until you reach the magical crit numbers. It's like how playing Fire before 40% crit or Retribution with low haste is really balls and difficult, not because the skill-cap is high, but because the class is functionally broken until these arbitrary numbers are met.

    You can't put everyone in equal gear and get equal performance to skill-cap, you have to set them at their ideal weights, which totally blows the equal gear argument out of the water, and RUINS your argument as well because Frost's Skill-cap comes independent of gear entirely.

    This isn't about DPS, but the fact that you can't just put everyone in 522 item level gear and directly assess their skill-cap; because I've listed numerous classes that arbitrarily alter how easy or difficult they are to play at certain softcaps. It's always been like this.

    This is entirely beyond the idiocy of trying to claim any class on this game is discernibly more difficult to play then another. The measurable delta of skill-capping any one class is minute, and Frost is higher on the delta, but that's like saying a sheet of paper is noticeably thinner then a sheet of cardboard.

    Both are still pretty damn flat. You're fighting to be the thinnest kid in fat camp here.
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  4. #64
    Herald of the Titans Darkfriend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Murdos View Post
    Which is the problem, Fury's skillcap doesn't come into play until you reach the magical crit numbers. It's like how playing Fire before 40% crit or Retribution with low haste is really balls and difficult, not because the skill-cap is high, but because the class is functionally broken until these arbitrary numbers are met.

    You can't put everyone in equal gear and get equal performance to skill-cap, you have to set them at their ideal weights, which totally blows the equal gear argument out of the water, and RUINS your argument as well because Frost's Skill-cap comes independent of gear entirely.

    This isn't about DPS, but the fact that you can't just put everyone in 522 item level gear and directly assess their skill-cap; because I've listed numerous classes that arbitrarily alter how easy or difficult they are to play at certain softcaps. It's always been like this.

    This is entirely beyond the idiocy of trying to claim any class on this game is discernibly more difficult to play then another. The measurable delta of skill-capping any one class is minute, and Frost is higher on the delta, but that's like saying a sheet of paper is noticeably thinner then a sheet of cardboard.

    Both are still pretty damn flat. You're fighting to be the thinnest kid in fat camp here.
    In other words, you admit I'm right and you're wrong.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkfriend View Post
    In other words, you admit I'm right and you're wrong.
    Hardly, I've been pointing out from the get go your fury example is stupid and flawed, and your whole argument that any class is functionally more difficult then any other is stupid, pointless, ion no way based in fact - and only serves to fan the flames of people wagging dicks at one another as to who's more 'prosauce' then who.

    But, you do play a Fury Warrior. I'm pretty sure you have to find some way to make 'Cram as many abilites/raging blow charges into Colossus Smash as Possible' seem as byzantine and mysterious as possible. It's like you think a forum full of DKs have never played a priority list-based class before.

    What are you, six?
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  6. #66
    Herald of the Titans Darkfriend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Murdos View Post
    Hardly, I've been pointing out from the get go your fury example is stupid and flawed, and your whole argument that any class is functionally more difficult then any other is stupid, pointless, ion no way based in fact - and only serves to fan the flames of people wagging dicks at one another as to who's more 'prosauce' then who.

    But, you do play a Fury Warrior. I'm pretty sure you have to find some way to make 'Cram as many abilites/raging blow charges into Colossus Smash as Possible' seem as byzantine and mysterious as possible. It's like you think a forum full of DKs have never played a priority list-based class before.

    What are you, six?
    Better, I am correct. And that's all that matters. Anyone who says there is no difference in skill difficulty is rather clueless about the game lol.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkfriend View Post
    Better, I am correct. And that's all that matters. Anyone who says there is no difference in skill difficulty is rather clueless about the game lol.
    ... Yeah, I'm sorry you have no idea. Maybe if you're specifically talking about players who have a hard time with Mouse-turning and standing in fire, there's an appriciable difference in Class Difficulty in PVE, but for the average competent raider, there's really a very small delta for physical skill.

    This is WoW, not Street Fighter Alpha.

    Moreover you still haven't addressed the fact you specifically picked one of the FEW classes as youre example that experierences direct rotational links to secondary stat gear, DKs and Rogues and most other classes experience a lateral gain in throughput, typically through Haste and the like, where it simply increases resource generation for more abilities - but Fury, like Fire Mages, are a weird mutation of that wherein the ability to actually even USE specific abilites are tied to a secondary stat, which is entirely governed by your gear.

    If you were to take a DK and a Fury Warrior in 450 item level, and the DK had a very low Obliterate usage count, and the Fury Warrior had a low Raging Blow Frequency, you could theoretically say the DK is underplaying, but the Fury Warrior simply isn't getting enough crits to press the actual button. That's my entire point, you can range whinge and grunt all you want about how pooling 80 rage before a Colsmash with a Berserker Rage readied in case you have less then two stacks of Raging Blow ready so you can CSMASH > RB > RB > HS is the highlight of gaming difficulty - but the fact remains that you simply experience a dramatic scale of QOL improvements in your rotation through the use of gear to which no other class has claim to except perhaps Fire Mages.

    Better gear, literally makes your class both easier and more difficult to play, so it's not at all a good metric to compare to ANYTHING as far as the meager, nigh-binary skill-cap in this game exists, because at lower gear, your rotation will be simpler but 'harder' because you'll have less R. Blow procs to manage, which means less buttons to press and a lower skill cap, but a harder time getting more damage, and the inverse at higher gear because you'll be much more flush in the procs you need in order just to actually perform your rotation.

    You can keep claiming you're right all you want, you're still trying to brag you're the thinnest kid in fat camp, and that's still sad.
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  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Murdos View Post
    Skill-Cap in this game is a over-wrought ideal that really is just a strawman, if you're at-all good at gaming; hitting the skill-cap for any class or spec in PVE isn't rocket surgery.
    That's all what needed to be said here really. Whether class X requires more skill than class Y is pretty meaningless when neither class is really that hard to play to begin with.

    Skill and difficulty are all relative things to begin with. How do you even define skill in a game where any problems your having can be solved by a few changes to your UI which is a skill in itself?

    You don't have to be a genius to be good at this game, some people are unquestionably better at it that others but if your playing this game with the willingness to learn then the only thing that's holding you back is time.

    So ye....lets just accept none of it really matters and get on with bitching about how Frost is a bit weak sauce atm and how we would like to see it improve.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Kronik85 View Post
    So ye....lets just accept none of it really matters and get on with bitching about how Frost is a bit weak sauce atm and how we would like to see it improve.
    Frost is in the dog house as far as the Dev's care. If you are min/maxing even a little or competing for raid spots you have good reason to be pissed; go Unholy or go home. Another time when "bring the player idea" bites the dust. GC can kiss my rear and keep buffing Mages.

  10. #70
    whats hilarious is the ptr forums. Saw a Dk based thread detailing all the issues with frost... more than 75% dks in there defended blizz saying we are in a good position as we are middling meele dps behind rogues and almosts lightly behind warriors currently.
    whooptie doo.. i dont play the game to be 2nd last dps. if all meele dps is behind ranged then buff every meele dps including us.. it doesnt mean we are "ok" as we are (wont be the case next patch) above rets. no wonder dks have been shitty dps all throughout this expac. most DKs think we are doing "fine" with being 3rd in meele dps. its not like shamans/druids have a super strong raged dps tree. lets just make frost ranged hb spam specc and let us be middling ranged dps like them /sarcasm.

  11. #71
    The Patient Nedda's Avatar
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    The problem with the PTR is that atm we are scaled down so much, that frost becomes very viable/good compared to others again. Take a look at my Twitch stream from yesterday for example (jump to ~26min mark).

    Guess we will have to wait for heroic tests.

  12. #72
    but why? frost is hurting even right now with ~540 ilvl avg gear. so using similar gear in ptr should be the same no?

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by devilminion View Post
    whats hilarious is the ptr forums. Saw a Dk based thread detailing all the issues with frost... more than 75% dks in there defended blizz saying we are in a good position as we are middling meele dps behind rogues and almosts lightly behind warriors currently.
    whooptie doo.. i dont play the game to be 2nd last dps. if all meele dps is behind ranged then buff every meele dps including us.. it doesnt mean we are "ok" as we are (wont be the case next patch) above rets. no wonder dks have been shitty dps all throughout this expac. most DKs think we are doing "fine" with being 3rd in meele dps. its not like shamans/druids have a super strong raged dps tree. lets just make frost ranged hb spam specc and let us be middling ranged dps like them /sarcasm.
    Presenting counter-arguments != defending Blizzard.

    Be real. You (should) know that it is impossible to balance every spec in every scenario/fight to do the exact same DPS to a razor's edge, and even more so if you want that razor's edge balance to persist as gear changes. The best they can strive for is a target range, say, +/- 3% around some nominal value. If a spec falls out of that range, they'll nerf or buff it accordingly. We don't know what parameters they base that range on (or even what it is).

    What does this lead to? Someone lucks out and gets the #1 spot. Someone else doesn't luck out and gets the last spot.

    And no, that is not a cop-out cliché answer. The ranking is irrelevant. The only important part here is the significance of the relative difference between the two. If the top spec does 0.05% more damage than the lowest spec, does that matter? If yes, how are you determining that it does, in fact, matter (or similarly if your answer was no)? What about 4%? 10%? At what point does it become realistically significant? Under what fight conditions (any, multi-dotting, high-movement, etc.)?

    If all of the melee are below the ranged (your claim), then that's a systematic problem and doesn't have anything to do with DK scaling. Buffing Frost DKs isn't going to fix it. They need to address what mechanics are favoring ranged classes over melee classes. If that's because melee get less uptime than ranged, then buffing melee isn't the best route here, because what if we consider a scenario when both get full uptime? There's now going to be a glaring disparity.

    On another topic, I'd also point out with respect to 5.4 PTR logs, the effects of each class's T16-2pc and 4pc bonuses should be taken into account. Is the difference (if any) because of the difference in gains from bonuses / other class changes, or is it because of lack of scaling, or even perhaps a mix?
    "I have it all simmed."
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  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by SSHA778 View Post
    *SNIP*
    I'm with you in the idea that there's bound to be winners and losers every tier and there's no need to freak out if your 1% or maybe even as much as 5% behind. You look at all the subjective data we got though and we are way past this threshold. If you even want to entertain Simcraft as relevant then that's showing a 25% disparity with us and Fire Mages! Unfortunately atm Simcraft seems to be baring out.

    2H Frost's ideal circumstances are essentially a Patchwerk scenario, it's the specs strongest niche, both the alternatives do everything else better. 2H Frost lags behind everything else in the situation it's meant to be at it's best. On some level I think that's all that needs to be said. I would normally dismiss this sort of post but I've seen this all myself now that I'm at ilvl 538, playing Frost well translates as less DPS than playing Unholy pretty badly.

    Melee need's a good looking at in general. My view might be bias but as a melee in 10 man I don't feel like I have much of a niche.....it's somewhat more of a tolerance lol. You can run 2 melee and that's fine there's not much reason not to and if they produce good numbers and they don't stand in the fire then all is well and good. Bring 3 however and suddenly the boss becomes a cluster fuck. Bring 4 or 5 ranged and you don't get the same problem.

    I honestly don't see why we just can't have the raid buff back. You can't stack melee beyond a certain number in the majority of fights, boss mechanics start to break, if the fight favours ranged (like more or less every encounter type beyond Patchwerk does) then your melee don't become a liability and if the fight actually is a Patchwerk then god forbid the hardcore out there might want to stack 2-5 melee because they might actually shine.

    /edit: New idea!

    If they can't fix melee then at least break the ranged so that movement is some kind of problem for them like it used to be!
    Last edited by Kronik85; 2013-07-09 at 05:37 PM. Reason: typo's and what not.

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by devilminion View Post
    whats hilarious is the ptr forums. Saw a Dk based thread detailing all the issues with frost... more than 75% dks in there defended blizz saying we are in a good position as we are middling meele dps behind rogues and almosts lightly behind warriors currently.
    whooptie doo.. i dont play the game to be 2nd last dps. if all meele dps is behind ranged then buff every meele dps including us.. it doesnt mean we are "ok" as we are (wont be the case next patch) above rets. no wonder dks have been shitty dps all throughout this expac. most DKs think we are doing "fine" with being 3rd in meele dps. its not like shamans/druids have a super strong raged dps tree. lets just make frost ranged hb spam specc and let us be middling ranged dps like them /sarcasm.
    Now you see why we will receive no beneficial changes. I've thrown in the towel on the data I was compiling after being belittled by the talking heads who don't want to do anything because they believe everything is just fine.

    If there isn't community-wide support there will not be any positive changes made.
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  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by DarthMetatron View Post
    Now you see why we will receive no beneficial changes. I've thrown in the towel on the data I was compiling after being belittled by the talking heads who don't want to do anything because they believe everything is just fine.

    If there isn't community-wide support there will not be any positive changes made.
    Sorry to hear that man, I had high hopes for your results. On one level though surely Blizz must be aware of this? If the problem is indeed that we don't scale well enough then shouldn't Blizz already have this all mapped out?

    Considering how long this process takes it's not a 1 man job but if Blizz can't work something as arbitrary as knowing how gear effects the classes of your game then you can only face palm at the thought.

    I've been checking out raid bots for a different perspective, trying to look at the problem as whole. If you look at average DPS across encounters for Heroic and Normal then I think you can make a case that whilst Frost is doing poorly, Unholy is pretty average. Mages (Fire and Arcane), Warlocks, Boomkins, Shadow Priests and Assassination Rogues look more like they need a nerf rather than every other DPS spec in the game needing a buff.

    Maybe this is the sort of reply that stopped you doing it but I was definitely willing you on.

  17. #77
    The simple problem is, that dk dps is somewhat forgiving and rewarding to weaker and average players than some other specs, atleast if you not mess up the core principle.
    Messing up a combustion on a fire mage is simple and punishing, making it good to perfect and you blow up things.
    Mastering the dk is more about micromanaging and that is less rewarding than managing dots, movement and overpowered trinkets like uvls.

    And since our secondary stats add nothing to us but raw dmg and feeling you don't really have to manage those stats either.

    It makes me a bit sad, if i look at a fire mage for example all stats feel awesome, crit for the core mechanic, haste for more burst and general dot ticks and mastery for a booming combustion. They all add up nicely and if you have enough of one the other ones grow in strength and make you feel stronger. Even for uh dks it is a bit meh when you reach your haste optimum the rest is just a bit decorative, more crits look cool but you can't control them and you don't get extras from it and mastery is a bit invisible because if you crit for 200k or for 205k with a deathcoil isn't that remarkable.

    That leads also back to our scaling problem because our core mechanics are too independant of secondary stats or even hostile in terms of frost.
    Also caster seem to get the more broken trinkets like uvls and the 84% amplifier trinket going bad shit insane with it and are much more in line without them, additonally they have niches where they can totally snap (fire mages eleder council, destro warlock primordius), which we in general don't have. (yeah tortos 25er hc uh dk on bats but thats all about it for ages)

    @darkfriend down there
    The basics, yes, on a matter of high end and being "skill capped" it's not much of difference and also a thing of personal perception (like difficulty always is), just the reward from being that good as a frost dk is smaller, the basics is just making up more from the dmg as from other classes mostly.
    Not trying to get back to that discussion or saying that this is not what you meant, too. Just wnated to make my point clear.
    Last edited by Raikh; 2013-07-09 at 10:34 PM.
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  18. #78
    Herald of the Titans Darkfriend's Avatar
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    That's pretty much exactly what I said before, but people seem to think 2h frost is hard to play, or else every other spec is as easy as 2h frost. Which is incredibly stupid.

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkfriend View Post
    That's pretty much exactly what I said before, but people seem to think 2h frost is hard to play, or else every other spec is as easy as 2h frost. Which is incredibly stupid.
    2H is one of the easiest DPS specs in the game; I really don't think there is any question about that, but it isn't the players fault. There is almost no rune management required since they can all be used for obliterate. There is no KM management because it just doesn't matter much either way. There is really no decision when you are rune and RP capped, since the correct answer is always to dump runes into obliterate if it is available. There is one "rotational" CD that is pretty much always used on cooldown (PoF). The only remotely engaging mechanic is learning to maximize AMS absorbing. The spec is just boring now, but to me the constant HB spam of DW is worse, and unholy just feels like a warlock in plate. For me the most fun I ever had with my DK was in ICC, followed by 2h in 4.1 before the Blood of the North change. That really killed rune management for 2h frost and made the spec far less fun to play. At the same time I hated the changes they made to warriors in 4.0 so the only 2 classes I like have been jacked up since. Maybe its time I moved on from this game......

  20. #80
    see i disagree. I play a mage (lfr hero), a spriest and a blood/frost dk (my main). all three classes are pretty easy. I infact find mages incredibly easier. I mainly play frost but i have played arcane and fire and seriously only skill involved with fire is timing combustion and theres a kickass addon for it.. but i am digressing. Point is mages have a spell and cd that requires timing and skill that distinguishes avg age from a skilled player. as a frost DK, even if i fuck up (and i do a lot of times) it doesnt make much diff . in my dps. reason being KM does nothing.. u dont need to time obliterates, we dont have a big dps cd.. army is (mainly) used pre pull. NOTHING needs to be really timed that well for frost dks. yes, ams soaking, using pillar and pot during heroism etc. is still needed but thats valid for every specc and class.

    Blizz slowly took away everything that made good dks stand out or made the class "fun" or more convenient. i fell in love with dks back in wotlk over my mage main coz it was hella easy to aoe than my mage having to use 3-4 spells with cast times to aoe. dks nowadays don't have a burst cd, dont have strong aoe, dont bring any critical raid buffs, dont bring single target burst.. they are just there.. mass grip cheesing on some fights is all we have honestly.

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