We already addressed the gear issue. It's not relevant. It's completely aside. The scenario logically assumes equal geared for both sets. Part of the DPS increase is obviously from scaling, again addressed and set aside as not relevant. The other part, the main part of the argument, is that skill makes a larger DPS increase for one class than another.
That is the crux of the argument, which you have not disputed. Skill matters more for some classes than others.
It would be STUPID to compare dissimilar factors, like gear. OBVIOUSLY gear matters, but we're assuming equal gear.
Last edited by Darkfriend; 2013-07-08 at 01:50 AM.
You can't put everyone in equal gear and get equal performance to skill-cap, you have to set them at their ideal weights, which totally blows the equal gear argument out of the water, and RUINS your argument as well because Frost's Skill-cap comes independent of gear entirely.
This isn't about DPS, but the fact that you can't just put everyone in 522 item level gear and directly assess their skill-cap; because I've listed numerous classes that arbitrarily alter how easy or difficult they are to play at certain softcaps. It's always been like this.
This is entirely beyond the idiocy of trying to claim any class on this game is discernibly more difficult to play then another. The measurable delta of skill-capping any one class is minute, and Frost is higher on the delta, but that's like saying a sheet of paper is noticeably thinner then a sheet of cardboard.
Both are still pretty damn flat. You're fighting to be the thinnest kid in fat camp here.
Vampire Zombie Werewolf
But, you do play a Fury Warrior. I'm pretty sure you have to find some way to make 'Cram as many abilites/raging blow charges into Colossus Smash as Possible' seem as byzantine and mysterious as possible. It's like you think a forum full of DKs have never played a priority list-based class before.
What are you, six?
Vampire Zombie Werewolf
This is WoW, not Street Fighter Alpha.
Moreover you still haven't addressed the fact you specifically picked one of the FEW classes as youre example that experierences direct rotational links to secondary stat gear, DKs and Rogues and most other classes experience a lateral gain in throughput, typically through Haste and the like, where it simply increases resource generation for more abilities - but Fury, like Fire Mages, are a weird mutation of that wherein the ability to actually even USE specific abilites are tied to a secondary stat, which is entirely governed by your gear.
If you were to take a DK and a Fury Warrior in 450 item level, and the DK had a very low Obliterate usage count, and the Fury Warrior had a low Raging Blow Frequency, you could theoretically say the DK is underplaying, but the Fury Warrior simply isn't getting enough crits to press the actual button. That's my entire point, you can range whinge and grunt all you want about how pooling 80 rage before a Colsmash with a Berserker Rage readied in case you have less then two stacks of Raging Blow ready so you can CSMASH > RB > RB > HS is the highlight of gaming difficulty - but the fact remains that you simply experience a dramatic scale of QOL improvements in your rotation through the use of gear to which no other class has claim to except perhaps Fire Mages.
Better gear, literally makes your class both easier and more difficult to play, so it's not at all a good metric to compare to ANYTHING as far as the meager, nigh-binary skill-cap in this game exists, because at lower gear, your rotation will be simpler but 'harder' because you'll have less R. Blow procs to manage, which means less buttons to press and a lower skill cap, but a harder time getting more damage, and the inverse at higher gear because you'll be much more flush in the procs you need in order just to actually perform your rotation.
You can keep claiming you're right all you want, you're still trying to brag you're the thinnest kid in fat camp, and that's still sad.
Vampire Zombie Werewolf
Skill and difficulty are all relative things to begin with. How do you even define skill in a game where any problems your having can be solved by a few changes to your UI which is a skill in itself?
You don't have to be a genius to be good at this game, some people are unquestionably better at it that others but if your playing this game with the willingness to learn then the only thing that's holding you back is time.
So ye....lets just accept none of it really matters and get on with bitching about how Frost is a bit weak sauce atm and how we would like to see it improve.
whats hilarious is the ptr forums. Saw a Dk based thread detailing all the issues with frost... more than 75% dks in there defended blizz saying we are in a good position as we are middling meele dps behind rogues and almosts lightly behind warriors currently.
whooptie doo.. i dont play the game to be 2nd last dps. if all meele dps is behind ranged then buff every meele dps including us.. it doesnt mean we are "ok" as we are (wont be the case next patch) above rets. no wonder dks have been shitty dps all throughout this expac. most DKs think we are doing "fine" with being 3rd in meele dps. its not like shamans/druids have a super strong raged dps tree. lets just make frost ranged hb spam specc and let us be middling ranged dps like them /sarcasm.
The problem with the PTR is that atm we are scaled down so much, that frost becomes very viable/good compared to others again. Take a look at my Twitch stream from yesterday for example (jump to ~26min mark).
Guess we will have to wait for heroic tests.
but why? frost is hurting even right now with ~540 ilvl avg gear. so using similar gear in ptr should be the same no?
Be real. You (should) know that it is impossible to balance every spec in every scenario/fight to do the exact same DPS to a razor's edge, and even more so if you want that razor's edge balance to persist as gear changes. The best they can strive for is a target range, say, +/- 3% around some nominal value. If a spec falls out of that range, they'll nerf or buff it accordingly. We don't know what parameters they base that range on (or even what it is).
What does this lead to? Someone lucks out and gets the #1 spot. Someone else doesn't luck out and gets the last spot.
And no, that is not a cop-out cliché answer. The ranking is irrelevant. The only important part here is the significance of the relative difference between the two. If the top spec does 0.05% more damage than the lowest spec, does that matter? If yes, how are you determining that it does, in fact, matter (or similarly if your answer was no)? What about 4%? 10%? At what point does it become realistically significant? Under what fight conditions (any, multi-dotting, high-movement, etc.)?
If all of the melee are below the ranged (your claim), then that's a systematic problem and doesn't have anything to do with DK scaling. Buffing Frost DKs isn't going to fix it. They need to address what mechanics are favoring ranged classes over melee classes. If that's because melee get less uptime than ranged, then buffing melee isn't the best route here, because what if we consider a scenario when both get full uptime? There's now going to be a glaring disparity.
On another topic, I'd also point out with respect to 5.4 PTR logs, the effects of each class's T16-2pc and 4pc bonuses should be taken into account. Is the difference (if any) because of the difference in gains from bonuses / other class changes, or is it because of lack of scaling, or even perhaps a mix?
2H Frost's ideal circumstances are essentially a Patchwerk scenario, it's the specs strongest niche, both the alternatives do everything else better. 2H Frost lags behind everything else in the situation it's meant to be at it's best. On some level I think that's all that needs to be said. I would normally dismiss this sort of post but I've seen this all myself now that I'm at ilvl 538, playing Frost well translates as less DPS than playing Unholy pretty badly.
Melee need's a good looking at in general. My view might be bias but as a melee in 10 man I don't feel like I have much of a niche.....it's somewhat more of a tolerance lol. You can run 2 melee and that's fine there's not much reason not to and if they produce good numbers and they don't stand in the fire then all is well and good. Bring 3 however and suddenly the boss becomes a cluster fuck. Bring 4 or 5 ranged and you don't get the same problem.
I honestly don't see why we just can't have the raid buff back. You can't stack melee beyond a certain number in the majority of fights, boss mechanics start to break, if the fight favours ranged (like more or less every encounter type beyond Patchwerk does) then your melee don't become a liability and if the fight actually is a Patchwerk then god forbid the hardcore out there might want to stack 2-5 melee because they might actually shine.
/edit: New idea!
If they can't fix melee then at least break the ranged so that movement is some kind of problem for them like it used to be!
Last edited by Kronik85; 2013-07-09 at 05:37 PM. Reason: typo's and what not.
If there isn't community-wide support there will not be any positive changes made.
Sathir, Dreadlord of Greenmist
AKA Bigokk from FFXI
Considering how long this process takes it's not a 1 man job but if Blizz can't work something as arbitrary as knowing how gear effects the classes of your game then you can only face palm at the thought.
I've been checking out raid bots for a different perspective, trying to look at the problem as whole. If you look at average DPS across encounters for Heroic and Normal then I think you can make a case that whilst Frost is doing poorly, Unholy is pretty average. Mages (Fire and Arcane), Warlocks, Boomkins, Shadow Priests and Assassination Rogues look more like they need a nerf rather than every other DPS spec in the game needing a buff.
Maybe this is the sort of reply that stopped you doing it but I was definitely willing you on.
The simple problem is, that dk dps is somewhat forgiving and rewarding to weaker and average players than some other specs, atleast if you not mess up the core principle.
Messing up a combustion on a fire mage is simple and punishing, making it good to perfect and you blow up things.
Mastering the dk is more about micromanaging and that is less rewarding than managing dots, movement and overpowered trinkets like uvls.
And since our secondary stats add nothing to us but raw dmg and feeling you don't really have to manage those stats either.
It makes me a bit sad, if i look at a fire mage for example all stats feel awesome, crit for the core mechanic, haste for more burst and general dot ticks and mastery for a booming combustion. They all add up nicely and if you have enough of one the other ones grow in strength and make you feel stronger. Even for uh dks it is a bit meh when you reach your haste optimum the rest is just a bit decorative, more crits look cool but you can't control them and you don't get extras from it and mastery is a bit invisible because if you crit for 200k or for 205k with a deathcoil isn't that remarkable.
That leads also back to our scaling problem because our core mechanics are too independant of secondary stats or even hostile in terms of frost.
Also caster seem to get the more broken trinkets like uvls and the 84% amplifier trinket going bad shit insane with it and are much more in line without them, additonally they have niches where they can totally snap (fire mages eleder council, destro warlock primordius), which we in general don't have. (yeah tortos 25er hc uh dk on bats but thats all about it for ages)
@darkfriend down there
The basics, yes, on a matter of high end and being "skill capped" it's not much of difference and also a thing of personal perception (like difficulty always is), just the reward from being that good as a frost dk is smaller, the basics is just making up more from the dmg as from other classes mostly.
Not trying to get back to that discussion or saying that this is not what you meant, too. Just wnated to make my point clear.
Last edited by Raikh; 2013-07-09 at 10:34 PM.
Humans love to hate. They neither have to think nor to understand to hate something or someone and still they find a cause and solution for their problems.
That's pretty much exactly what I said before, but people seem to think 2h frost is hard to play, or else every other spec is as easy as 2h frost. Which is incredibly stupid.
see i disagree. I play a mage (lfr hero), a spriest and a blood/frost dk (my main). all three classes are pretty easy. I infact find mages incredibly easier. I mainly play frost but i have played arcane and fire and seriously only skill involved with fire is timing combustion and theres a kickass addon for it.. but i am digressing. Point is mages have a spell and cd that requires timing and skill that distinguishes avg age from a skilled player. as a frost DK, even if i fuck up (and i do a lot of times) it doesnt make much diff . in my dps. reason being KM does nothing.. u dont need to time obliterates, we dont have a big dps cd.. army is (mainly) used pre pull. NOTHING needs to be really timed that well for frost dks. yes, ams soaking, using pillar and pot during heroism etc. is still needed but thats valid for every specc and class.
Blizz slowly took away everything that made good dks stand out or made the class "fun" or more convenient. i fell in love with dks back in wotlk over my mage main coz it was hella easy to aoe than my mage having to use 3-4 spells with cast times to aoe. dks nowadays don't have a burst cd, dont have strong aoe, dont bring any critical raid buffs, dont bring single target burst.. they are just there.. mass grip cheesing on some fights is all we have honestly.