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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Enosh View Post
    as opposed to every other tanking class in this game who can just stand there and take that hard hitting ability while afk?
    DKs, to some extent. Huge health pool and reactive healing that's more effective -after- you get hit hard. But yeah, not while afk. If you're afk, you take that hit, don't death strike to recover, and you get nuked by the next swing. If all of a DKs buttons are available, you can take a 1M health hit and heal most of it before the next swing comes in.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Deja Thoris View Post
    It's all bullshit anyway. I'm going to use an example, I'm not trying to prove bears are good or bad, just different:

    Pally gets hit and absorbs it, shows as healing on recount. Bear avoids attack altogether, doesn't show on recount. Using this most people just look at recount and shout "nerf palas!"
    Can you show that paladins take enough more damage than bears pre-sacred shield absorb for SS to balance it out? They don't.

    Paladins, druids, and monks all take roughly the same amount of damage during any given encounter, but paladins heal about half of it back passively and monks can do some as well, to a lesser degree. Dks and warriors take about 30-50% more damage than those three overall.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Kurgosh View Post
    DKs, to some extent. Huge health pool and reactive healing that's more effective -after- you get hit hard. But yeah, not while afk. If you're afk, you take that hit, don't death strike to recover, and you get nuked by the next swing. If all of a DKs buttons are available, you can take a 1M health hit and heal most of it before the next swing comes in.
    If there's any tank that can take a hit while AFK, it's actually a Druid. That's because our armor ratings are so high, we're already getting close to cap again. (hard cap being 75% physical damage reduction) And if we keep our dodgey buff up, we actually take less damage than any other tank. I'm going to make the argument that Druids are actually better purely as tanks than Paladins are. And they have proven capable of solo tanking Ra-Den.

    On Ra-Den 25M, Dex from Envy (perhaps the best bear in the world) had a damage intake of 139k DPS and did 412K DPS on his best log. Fatsteak's log is similar. http://worldoflogs.com/reports/l4wdt...?s=7974&e=8431

    On the same fight, Treckie from Method had a damage intake of 154K DPS. His DPS done was 476K. http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-1t...?s=2503&e=2956

    When Envy had their Monk, Dexsan, tank Ra-Den instead, he did nearly 500K DPS. But, his damage intake was also incredibly high - 273K, with the average melee hit taken being more than twice as large as the Paladin's average. This required a very specific makeup of elite healers to keep him alive. http://worldoflogs.com/reports/vb2ul...n/?s=205&e=640

    Then there is this Prot Warrior who solo tanked Ra-Den. DPS for his top log at 377K, and damage intake was 173K which is somewhere between the Paladin and the Monk. http://worldoflogs.com/reports/94yzm...?s=1371&e=1801

    I haven't seen any solo tank logs on Ra-Den 25H for DK's at all. I don't know if this means it can't be done, or the top guilds simply aren't attempting it.

  4. #24
    From what I have seen good warriors do not take that much more damage than Paladins, Druids, and Monks. Just like bad monks can give monks a bad reputation for tanking so do bad warriors. DKs the extra damage seems like an offset function for the sheer amount of shielding and self healing that they perform. That means that really paladins should have been put in to a similar position to DKs as far as damage taken goes but they weren't.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-27 at 06:16 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Tarazet View Post
    When Envy had their Monk, Dexsan, tank Ra-Den instead, he did nearly 500K DPS. But, his damage intake was also incredibly high - 273K, with the average melee hit taken being more than twice as large as the Paladin's average. This required a very specific makeup of elite healers to keep him alive. http://worldoflogs.com/reports/vb2ul...n/?s=205&e=640
    WoL is misleading when gauging monk damage intake. Staggered damage is counted as an absorb. His average hits are twice as large as the Paladin's average hits because the damage staggered from that hit is read as an absorb. Really those hits are likely being staggered for something between 60-75% depending on what his gear looks like and when he has a Staggering buff running.

    Something you left out of this though is where they all had for healing done. The Druid is 6k HPS(e), the Paladin is 113k HPS(e), the Monk is 63k HPS(e), and the warrior is 9k HPS(e). If we dig a little deeper into the monk and paladin numbers, about 25% of the monk's healing is to the monk himself while 66% of the Paladin's healing is to himself.
    Last edited by Orion Antares; 2013-06-27 at 06:30 PM.

  5. #25
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't a paladin's damage intake look lower BECAUSE of Sacred Shield absorbs?
    So SS would be making paladins look much stronger by double dipping on logs as looking like less damage while also being added to healing?

    afaik, 60-80% of a paladins "healing" is absorbs on self, to counter inc damage

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Tarazet View Post
    I haven't seen any solo tank logs on Ra-Den 25H for DK's at all. I don't know if this means it can't be done, or the top guilds simply aren't attempting it.
    The reason you aren't seeing any DK doing it is mostly because Ra-den doesn't have a super consistent behavior when it comes to using his strike when he goes to 100 energy. Sometimes he will get 100 energy, the DK will use DS, and then Ra-den will do a melee swing prior to using the strike and break Blood Shield, then boom.

    It's certainly doable (and done), just not worth the hassle when you can just use your co-tank and avoid that problem altogether (you really need to fail pretty hard to die on that mechanic as another tanking class)
    Last edited by Mionelol; 2013-06-27 at 06:59 PM.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyrstlol View Post
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't a paladin's damage intake look lower BECAUSE of Sacred Shield absorbs?
    So SS would be making paladins look much stronger by double dipping on logs as looking like less damage while also being added to healing?

    afaik, 60-80% of a paladins "healing" is absorbs on self, to counter inc damage
    No, absorbs are still counted as damage taken. The damage the SS absorbs is still part of his damage taken, hence it's counted as a heal.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Orion Antares View Post
    From what I have seen good warriors do not take that much more damage than Paladins, Druids, and Monks. Just like bad monks can give monks a bad reputation for tanking so do bad warriors. DKs the extra damage seems like an offset function for the sheer amount of shielding and self healing that they perform. That means that really paladins should have been put in to a similar position to DKs as far as damage taken goes but they weren't.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-27 at 06:16 PM ----------



    WoL is misleading when gauging monk damage intake. Staggered damage is counted as an absorb. His average hits are twice as large as the Paladin's average hits because the damage staggered from that hit is read as an absorb. Really those hits are likely being staggered for something between 60-75% depending on what his gear looks like and when he has a Staggering buff running.

    Something you left out of this though is where they all had for healing done. The Druid is 6k HPS(e), the Paladin is 113k HPS(e), the Monk is 63k HPS(e), and the warrior is 9k HPS(e). If we dig a little deeper into the monk and paladin numbers, about 25% of the monk's healing is to the monk himself while 66% of the Paladin's healing is to himself.
    We can also look at Healing Taken. Dexsan needed 151K HPS throughout the encounter, Dex needed 108K. The Druid's self-healing was 2.9M, which still accounted for 5.5% of his healing intake; the Monk supplied 6.8M, which accounted for 10.4% of the total healing he received. The Paladin is the clear outlier. Treckie required 146K healing, about the same as the Monk, but he supplied 51% of that himself - a total of 34M. 22M of that was Sacred Shield alone.

    So actually, the conclusion that the Paladin's self-healing is what is making them the tank of choice in T15 is impossible to deny. It doesn't come from the class's damage reduction - which is in line with the other plate tanks. The shield is a monster. But here's the thing - even without using Sacred Shield at all, he still would have been ahead of the other tanks. That's how ridiculous the numbers I'm seeing are.

    One more comment - Druids do certainly have the capability of self-healing, and quite a lot, but Dex must have felt that it didn't outweigh the damage reduction from Savage Defense.
    Last edited by Tarazet; 2013-06-27 at 07:19 PM.

  9. #29
    The mere fact that you take less damage on average doesn't make you a better tank. For an extreme example, a tank with 90% dodge who takes 90% of his hp per melee swing is far worse than a tank with 0% dodge who takes 50% of his hp per swing even though the dodge tank takes more than five times less damage on average.

    It just so happens that on top of taking less/comparable damage than the other tanks, the paladin is blessed with low dodge and a huge amount of self-healing which makes his incoming damage pattern something like "frequent small hits - which are often absorbed or healed back via seal" which is enormously easier to heal than "infrequent large hits".

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by kaiadam View Post
    The mere fact that you take less damage on average doesn't make you a better tank. For an extreme example, a tank with 90% dodge who takes 90% of his hp per melee swing is far worse than a tank with 0% dodge who takes 50% of his hp per swing even though the dodge tank takes more than five times less damage on average.

    It just so happens that on top of taking less/comparable damage than the other tanks, the paladin is blessed with low dodge and a huge amount of self-healing which makes his incoming damage pattern something like "frequent small hits - which are often absorbed or healed back via seal" which is enormously easier to heal than "infrequent large hits".
    Druids have higher armor ratings as well, so they certainly don't take more damage per swing - quite to the contrary. Each melee hit that a bear takes will be lower than if it was delivered to any other tank. The problem that Druids have is dealing with unavoidable alpha strikes, because we can't load up the absorbs (at least in any kind of reliable way). We can only heal back the damage afterwards. But against a boss that just melees you all day long, the Druid will be easier to heal.

  11. #31
    As a matter of fact, I'm pretty sure druids take the largest damage per swing on average of any tank class once you factor in active mitigation. Dks and warriors come close.

    Ra-den parses aren't the best places to look for these numbers because tanks that are parsing aren't investing heavily into their survival stats (duh), but compare fully survival specced leather tanks:

    Bear - 12% bear mitigation + 75% armor reduction = 78% total damage reduction
    Monk - 25% ox mitigation + 30% armor reduction + 70-90% stagger = 84%-95% total damage reduction, average is probably closer to 87%.

    Ra-den at ~10 stacks swings for about 3 million damage unmitigated. 660k hits on druid, 150k-450k hits on monk, average somewhere around 390k.
    Last edited by kaiadam; 2013-06-27 at 07:54 PM.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by kaiadam View Post
    As a matter of fact, I'm pretty sure druids take the largest damage per swing on average of any tank class once you factor in active mitigation. Dks and warriors come close.

    Ra-den parses aren't the best places to look for these numbers because tanks that are parsing aren't investing heavily into their survival stats (duh), but compare fully survival specced leather tanks:

    Bear - 12% bear mitigation + 75% armor reduction = 78% total damage reduction
    Monk - 25% ox mitigation + 30% armor reduction + 70-90% stagger = 84%-95% total damage reduction, average is probably closer to 87%.

    Ra-den at ~10 stacks swings for about 3 million damage unmitigated. 660k hits on druid, 150k-450k hits on monk, average somewhere around 390k.
    By "survival spec'd" you mean full Mastery (EHP) build, right? We can't quite hit 75%, or so Arielle tells me, but even a Rage build Druid should be around 70% armor reduction.

    Baseline, the Staggered amount is 25% with the baseline Mastery (i.e. 0 points). It's something like 900 points to increase the Staggered amount by 1%. Where on earth do you get the idea that you can stagger 70-90% of incoming damage?

  13. #33
    Are we going to have this (or a variation of this) thread every patch? The complaints are just as baseless this time as they were last time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryngo Blackratchet View Post
    Yeah, Rhandric is right, as usual.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Tarazet View Post
    By "survival spec'd" you mean full Mastery (EHP) build, right? We can't quite hit 75%, or so Arielle tells me, but even a Rage build Druid should be around 70% armor reduction.

    Baseline, the Staggered amount is 25% with the baseline Mastery (i.e. 0 points). It's something like 900 points to increase the Staggered amount by 1%. Where on earth do you get the idea that you can stagger 70-90% of incoming damage?
    From playing a survival specced brewmaster occasionally?

    Ox stance: 20%
    Shuffle: 20%
    Base mastery: 5%
    1% for every 960 mastery rating beyond that point.

    At this moment, I calculate that with some gear swaps, I am able to dump roughly 19-20k stats into mastery if I so desired and I'm still a few ilvls away from bis. Plus the 3k from mastery raid buff = 23-24% more mastery, for a total of 68-69%, probably 70% in bis T15. Ok, so I rounded a little, sue me. It'll be ~80% passive in T16.

    On top of that, we have 2pT15 which is up roughly 30-50% of the time, which provides another 12% stagger. Fort brew is up ~10-15% of the time for 20% more stagger. Rune of reorigination procs - if you choose to use that trinket - will supply another 10-20% stagger about 25% of the time. Hence the range of stagger I mentioned. If anything, I'm underestimating the amount these procs add to the average stagger value.

    Are we going to have this (or a variation of this) thread every patch? The complaints are just as baseless this time as they were last time.
    There are many who are not aware of the current tanking situation (as evidenced by all those paraphrasing "tanks are more or less equal, pick the one you enjoy playing!"). Regardless whether these "complaints" are baseless, this thread provides information that will raise awareness and knowledge of the game among a nonzero portion of the WoW population. A better educated community provides better feedback to the developers. Better feedback results in a more balanced game which is an admirable end-goal.
    Last edited by kaiadam; 2013-06-27 at 08:38 PM.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by kaiadam View Post
    From playing a survival specced brewmaster occasionally?

    Ox stance: 20%
    Shuffle: 20%
    Base mastery: 5%
    1% for every 960 mastery rating beyond that point.

    At this moment, I calculate that with some gear swaps, I am able to dump roughly 19-20k stats into mastery if I so desired and I'm still a few ilvls away from bis. Plus the 3k from mastery raid buff = 23-24% more mastery, for a total of 68-69%, probably 70% in bis T15. Ok, so I rounded a little, sue me. It'll be ~80% passive in T16.

    On top of that, we have 2pT15 which is up roughly 30-50% of the time, which provides another 12% stagger. Fort brew is up ~10-15% of the time for 20% more stagger. Rune of reorigination procs - if you choose to use that trinket - will supply another 10-20% stagger about 25% of the time. Hence the range of stagger I mentioned. If anything, I'm underestimating the amount these procs add to the average stagger value.
    So on the high end, and with the right pieces, Monks can achieve superior damage reduction, at the expense of DPS and uptime on active mitigation. It's the same for Druids. The difference seems to be the size of the spread; Rage build Druids still have most of their passive damage reduction even if they ignore Mastery, whereas DPS build Brewmasters don't seem to have that same luxury. They have to compensate in other ways. That goes back to my original premise - that if you were to choose a class to take a hit while AFK, you would pick a Druid. If you tried it with a Monk you'd be dead within a couple of GCD's.

  16. #36
    ... I find it difficult to praise a class due to how it stacks up relative to other tanks when the player is afk, and fail to see how it's relevant in any way?

    Brewmasters that ignore mastery have about ~55% stagger, which gives 76% damage mitigation. In other words, brewmasters that completely ignore survival have roughly the same damage mitigation as a druid that dumps everything into mastery.

  17. #37
    Essentially it comes down the the fact that the damage in take vs healing output of 4 of the 5 tanks balances themselves out. Two of the 5 tanks are low on damage output and 1 of the 5 tanks has a large imbalance between their healing output and their damage mitigation while also being high in damage output. Plus they have an immunity cooldown.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-27 at 09:12 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by kaiadam View Post
    ... I find it difficult to praise a class due to how it stacks up relative to other tanks when the player is afk, and fail to see how it's relevant in any way?

    Brewmasters that ignore mastery have about ~55% stagger, which gives 76% damage mitigation. In other words, brewmasters that completely ignore survival have roughly the same damage mitigation as a druid that dumps everything into mastery.
    That's not mitigation, that's EH. To be mitigation you'd need to purify the damage every time.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Enosh View Post
    as opposed to every other tanking class in this game who can just stand there and take that hard hitting ability while afk?
    Quote Originally Posted by kaiadam View Post
    ... I find it difficult to praise a class due to how it stacks up relative to other tanks when the player is afk, and fail to see how it's relevant in any way?

    Brewmasters that ignore mastery have about ~55% stagger, which gives 76% damage mitigation. In other words, brewmasters that completely ignore survival have roughly the same damage mitigation as a druid that dumps everything into mastery.
    Then explain to me why the same player playing a Monk needed some 38% more healing than he did playing his Druid, and also had more frequent high spikes. RNG?

    But yet people will say that Monks are unstoppable because they can do #1 WOL..

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Tarazet View Post
    Then explain to me why the same player playing a Monk needed some 38% more healing than he did playing his Druid, and also had more frequent high spikes. RNG?

    But yet people will say that Monks are unstoppable because they can do #1 WOL..
    Different skill on different classes /shrug. I can say the opposite - Dex isn't the only guy who's killed Ra-den 25 with both a guardian and a brewmaster. And to be honest, healing taken is fairly useless in basically any analysis, what's more important is the instantaneous external hps spikes, and paladins are generally far lower at that stat than any other class, and druids are generally higher than any other.

    That's not mitigation, that's EH. To be mitigation you'd need to purify the damage every time.
    Semantics , but I concede the point.
    Last edited by kaiadam; 2013-06-28 at 02:27 AM.

  20. #40
    Paladins are OP, no doubt about that.


    Compare SS to other a druid dodging? Here's a newsflash, a druid dodges about as often as a paladin dodges/parries.
    Oh you mean Savage Defense, now the comparison is more fair. Other than the fact that youre comparing a T3 talent (?) to the active mitigation of a druid. Paladins still have block and shield of the righteous.

    Same comparison to DKs and blood shield. Feels like the only other tanking class that -should- be doing roughly even with a paladin is a warrior, because of Shield Barrier. But wait, shield barrier (and frenzied regen) costs rage, which makes it oftentimes mutually exclusive with shieldblock (and for druids savage defense).

    So again, tell me how a paladin's selfhealing isnt OP? When even looking at WoLs you wont notice a huge difference in damage taken - remember that WoL still counts absorbs as damage taken.


    Didnt check the logs myself, but a protpaladin that has a intake dps of 154k dps but also has a selfhealing (66% of 113k according to Irion Antares) about 75k is a tank that needs 80k hps to keep alive. About half of what another tank would need on the same fight <.<.

    But I do agree that spike damage is what really matters in the end. No matter how you spin it, tanks will get alot of spillover healing and overhealing dumped on them, but in the end 1 bad spike and youll go down like a sack of potatoes. For this I still think paladins are the far superior tanking class because of shield of the righteous (and ofc SS blunting alot of the heavy hitters).

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-28 at 10:54 AM ----------

    Oh yea, to whoever mentioned that T&C and Safeguard dont show up on recount: unless im mistaken the only place where hand of sacrifice shows up is on the 'friendly fire' tab on recount, and I doubt anyone ever checks that ^^. And then there's of course devo aura, but that's primarily a raidcd so hard to gauge the worth of a tank through that.

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