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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Dainwork View Post
    Oh yea, to whoever mentioned that T&C and Safeguard dont show up on recount: unless im mistaken the only place where hand of sacrifice shows up is on the 'friendly fire' tab on recount, and I doubt anyone ever checks that ^^. And then there's of course devo aura, but that's primarily a raidcd so hard to gauge the worth of a tank through that.
    You did not just compare safeguard and T&C with HoS.......................


    Also, my paladin got a 22% chance to dodge+parry. Rather sure druids have higher dodge chance than that. Not that I am saying dodge = SS. Not saying that at all.
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    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  2. #42
    In fights where they get stacks of a debuff, they can often remove those stacks to carry on tanking where another would die.

    All tanks are capable of RNG feats of inhuman strength, but only paladins can cheat.

  3. #43
    It seems like the only thing most of the responders in this thread agree upon is that the tools available just aren't really cutting it to show if prot paladins are indeed OP.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmist View Post
    In fights where they get stacks of a debuff, they can often remove those stacks to carry on tanking where another would die.
    Lets just check for which fights this hold true.

    Horridon - Having one paladin in the raid allows any tank to stay 100% on horridon
    Council - Only druids and monks can solo tank this without external help
    Durumu - Having one paladin in the raid allows any tank to stay 100% on durumu
    Animus - Paladin and DK can reset their stacks, dks much more frequent. Other tanks used to have ways to completely dodge the anima rings.
    Iron Qon - Having one paladin in the raid allows any tank to stay 100% on Qon, or if the tank is a dwarf
    Twins - Any tank can solo tank it.
    LS - Any tank can solo tank it. I found it far easier on my alt brm to solo tank it with 500 ilvl than my paladin at about 520 ilvl on the first kill. Due to monks being able to just rofl away all decaps with transcendance


    I also heard some dicy tactics on Jin'Rokh and Ji-Kun with tanks resetting the stacks, however this I do not know entirely how it works so cant confirm or deny, but it did not involve paladin.

    It seems like any raid boss that a paladin can "cheese", any other tank can also cheese with just a holy paladin or ret paladin in the raid, and there are bosses that other tanks can cheese that paladins cant. Comon, we need to realise tanks got different strengths. What is next, paladins complaining we need a 40% parry CD so we can avoid getting stacks on fights like council
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  5. #45
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    A lot of it has to do with cheesing mechanics by bubbling off debuffs (Triple Puncture springs to mind). Also with the utility Paladins are always good tank choices and have been for at least an expansion and a half. However...

    Quote Originally Posted by Doctorant View Post
    Yeah but try to miss Shield when boss hits that "hard hitting ability". It's very easy to die as a paladin if it is played wrong.
    So much this. It's not as easy as it looks to know when to time your 3s damage reduction. It can be quite confusing sometimes because you actually need to sit there at 5 holy power and wait a second or two for the ability to start before you use it (unless I'm doing something terribly wrong, which could be the case). It feels VERY strange and extremely clunky.
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  6. #46
    Played properly and healed properly, no tank should ever die. If you die as a tank, somebody (probably yourself) fucked up.
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  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Dainwork View Post
    Paladins are OP, no doubt about that.


    Compare SS to other a druid dodging? Here's a newsflash, a druid dodges about as often as a paladin dodges/parries.
    Oh you mean Savage Defense, now the comparison is more fair. Other than the fact that youre comparing a T3 talent (?) to the active mitigation of a druid. Paladins still have block and shield of the righteous.

    Same comparison to DKs and blood shield. Feels like the only other tanking class that -should- be doing roughly even with a paladin is a warrior, because of Shield Barrier. But wait, shield barrier (and frenzied regen) costs rage, which makes it oftentimes mutually exclusive with shieldblock (and for druids savage defense).

    So again, tell me how a paladin's selfhealing isnt OP? When even looking at WoLs you wont notice a huge difference in damage taken - remember that WoL still counts absorbs as damage taken.
    That actually presents a potential solution to the problem. SS needs to cost Holy power so that it requires resource management against SoTR just like every other tank needs to manage resources of one active mitigation against another. Savage Defense vs Frenzied Regeneration, Shield Barrier vs Shield Block, and BoK vs Purifying Brew vs Guard, all of those require major resource management and all of those amount to physical mitigation vs "self healing" mitigation. To make Paladins equal they should need to manage the same resource between SS and SotR so that each one actually affects how much you can use the other.


    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    I also heard some dicy tactics on Jin'Rokh and Ji-Kun with tanks resetting the stacks, however this I do not know entirely how it works so cant confirm or deny, but it did not involve paladin.
    I'll admit it. I've fed pets to the Ji-Kun's talon rake before.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Orion Antares View Post
    That actually presents a potential solution to the problem. SS needs to cost Holy power so that it requires resource management against SoTR just like every other tank needs to manage resources of one active mitigation against another. Savage Defense vs Frenzied Regeneration, Shield Barrier vs Shield Block, and BoK vs Purifying Brew vs Guard, all of those require major resource management and all of those amount to physical mitigation vs "self healing" mitigation. To make Paladins equal they should need to manage the same resource between SS and SotR so that each one actually affects how much you can use the other.
    This will do nothing to equalize the playing field. If Sacred Shield was removed entirely, Paladins would still be the most survivable tanks at least at higher gear levels.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Tarazet View Post
    This will do nothing to equalize the playing field. If Sacred Shield was removed entirely, Paladins would still be the most survivable tanks at least at higher gear levels.
    If you believe that and raid with a prot paladin, tell your prot paladin to not use SS an entire raid and see how the healers compare him to whatever other tank you use.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Orion Antares View Post
    I'll admit it. I've fed pets to the Ji-Kun's talon rake before.
    My ghost iron dragonling has been a superb tank sometimes.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by kaiadam View Post
    Can you show that paladins take enough more damage than bears pre-sacred shield absorb for SS to balance it out? They don't.

    Paladins, druids, and monks all take roughly the same amount of damage during any given encounter, but paladins heal about half of it back passively and monks can do some as well, to a lesser degree. Dks and warriors take about 30-50% more damage than those three overall.
    Avoidance tanks generally have a higher TDR (total damage reduction) however they can spike really hard.

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nuckels View Post
    I don't think you get it at all. It's just a constant absorb application with haste that inflates nr's like crazy. It's nice but we dont really replace a healer.
    If you didn't have it, would you need another healer?

    See, it replaces a healer.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Normie View Post
    If you didn't have it, would you need another healer?

    See, it replaces a healer.
    If bears didn't dodge and if dk's didn't have blood shields would you need another healer?

    see, they replace a healer!

    So dumb...

  14. #54
    The problem is not battle healer after the nerf with 5.2 (?) so we can step away from that once and for all time, monks add at least a similar amount of raidheal and it's mainly absorb (which is argueable stronger).

    What's left? Selfheal via Sacred Shield. Basically all* other relevant tank healing talents are based on % hitpoints while Sacred Shield scales with both vengeance and haste. Just have it scale with attackpower and haste but exclude the vengeance portion and it see how it works out.

    * monks chi wave has a similar problem, scales very well with attackpower & crit and deals a high amount of damage on top of a smart heal. Blizzard shouldn't bring a game changing ability in form of a talent choice when there's basically no other valid option if you want to compete.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by rhandric View Post
    Are we going to have this (or a variation of this) thread every patch? The complaints are just as baseless this time as they were last time.
    Likely won't have this topic again next patch. Paladins will still be good next patch, but they won't be able to remove/reset tank debuffs and everything will go back to normal. Throw in a possible sacred shield nerf and people will find the next most popular tank to complain about (Monks heh).
    Last edited by Xucuroz; 2013-06-30 at 12:42 PM.
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  16. #56
    Blizzard just needs to stop with the lazy tank switching mechanics.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by klausistklaus View Post
    The problem is not battle healer after the nerf with 5.2 (?) so we can step away from that once and for all time, monks add at least a similar amount of raidheal and it's mainly absorb (which is argueable stronger).

    What's left? Selfheal via Sacred Shield. Basically all* other relevant tank healing talents are based on % hitpoints while Sacred Shield scales with both vengeance and haste. Just have it scale with attackpower and haste but exclude the vengeance portion and it see how it works out.

    * monks chi wave has a similar problem, scales very well with attackpower & crit and deals a high amount of damage on top of a smart heal. Blizzard shouldn't bring a game changing ability in form of a talent choice when there's basically no other valid option if you want to compete.
    Battle healer was never the problem, I really don't know why they bothered nerfing that and not dealing with SS and Seal of Insight. The monk absorb is nice but it's not really stronger because it's a "smart" absorb. It basically targets someone based on a criteria and what happens often enough that the shield doesn't get used because either the person it targeted already took all the damage they were going to in the next 30 seconds or it targets the same person with the shield already on them and replaces the previous shield. It's a nice little bonus when it picks a useful target but it isn't very "smart". I'd say battle healer, blood worms, and Ox guards/L30 talents are about equally useful if you were to average out their effects on the raid. Warriors get some really nice raid DR cooldowns and druids get that one raid heal cooldown which is a bit weaker than Warrior CDs. Druids are the tank that could really use some better raid dmg CDs or healing compared to the other tanks. Maybe that's why they gave them crit aura and didn't give BrM crit buff.

    It's not selfheal vs Sacred Shield it's Sacred Shield/Seal of Insight vs SotR. No other tank has the kind of self healing a paladin has without either taking more average damage/bursts or having to trade active mitigation for that healing. Druids and warriors need to balance their resources between mitigation and self healing, shield block/savage defense vs shield barrier/frenzied regen respectively. Monks have an even more complicated balance to maintain with Shuffle, Purifying Brew, and Guard and then there are the EB procs and the use of EH/L30 talents for burst protection. DKs I don't know much about but from what I know they can build up a shield similar to SS but they can also reactively heal a huge amount of spike damage after that shield drops.

    Chi Wave doesn't have a similar problem to SS, all the talents on that level are meant to be used as a burst protection and to add some raid healing and damage. Unlike with prot paladins and SS talent, Chi Wave isn't an automatic pick. It is often a default pick because it's the easiest to use but it isn't the best for every tanking situation. Windwalkers are the only ones that automatically pick Chi Wave and that's specifically because they only care about the damage component of that talent level.
    Last edited by Orion Antares; 2013-07-01 at 12:14 PM.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    You did not just compare safeguard and T&C with HoS.......................


    Also, my paladin got a 22% chance to dodge+parry. Rather sure druids have higher dodge chance than that. Not that I am saying dodge = SS. Not saying that at all.
    Just taking random tanks from high-end guilds around similar ilvl: Treckie vs Sejta. Comparison was chosen for no reason whatsoever other than their ilvl being high.

    Paladin has 31,92% to parry dodge - these are still cumulative right, only block is on a separate roll nowadays to break CtC?
    Bear has baseline 18,80%. Now please correct me if im wrong, but is there a % increase in dodge when you go into bearform? At work atm so cant check.

    And yes, to a point I was comparing T&C and safeguard with HoS. It was in respect to abilities/utilities that dont show up on the meters. Now, Safeguard and HoS are in my opinion almost interchangable. 1 melee/ability taken and 20% reduction in damage or 30% reduction in damage taken (now, assuming 2 tanks, whenever you'd use HoS on another tank you yourself will most likely be at full health, hence rendering the damage from sac trivial). If you HoS a dps or healer then the damage transfered is even less of an issue. But this is just my thoughts, and im sure people that have done proper raiding with a paladin will more than know of HoS's uses.

    Again, my intent was just that you cant compare raidutilities in a vacuum like that.

    Another note, wanting to have a bear druid solely for T&C and their offtank ok'ish dps (with low vengeance) is in my opinion quite asinine. Was under the impression that there were no offtank classes anymore and all tanks should be balanced around being able to maintank : /


    [/COLOR]
    Quote Originally Posted by Deja Thoris View Post
    If bears didn't dodge and if dk's didn't have blood shields would you need another healer?

    see, they replace a healer!

    So dumb...
    Now youre comparing active mitigation to a talentchoice that should have 100% uptime
    Last edited by Dainwork; 2013-07-01 at 06:47 AM.

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nuckels View Post
    This really needs to stop, almost all our healing is just sacred shield absorb, especially after the battle healers nerf.
    The battle healer was a very, VERY slight nerf, and only accounts for about 9% of a prot paladins total healing. The majority of a paladins healing comes from heal on self.

    ---------- Post added 2013-07-01 at 06:58 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Dainwork View Post
    Just taking random tanks from high-end guilds around similar ilvl: Treckie vs Sejta. Comparison was chosen for no reason whatsoever other than their ilvl being high.

    Paladin has 31,92% to parry dodge - these are still cumulative right, only block is on a separate roll nowadays to break CtC?
    Bear has baseline 18,80%. Now please correct me if im wrong, but is there a % increase in dodge when you go into bearform? At work atm so cant check.

    And yes, to a point I was comparing T&C and safeguard with HoS. It was in respect to abilities/utilities that dont show up on the meters. Now, Safeguard and HoS are in my opinion almost interchangable. 1 melee/ability taken and 20% reduction in damage or 30% reduction in damage taken (now, assuming 2 tanks, whenever you'd use HoS on another tank you yourself will most likely be at full health, hence rendering the damage from sac trivial). If you HoS a dps or healer then the damage transfered is even less of an issue. But this is just my thoughts, and im sure people that have done proper raiding with a paladin will more than know of HoS's uses.

    Again, my intent was just that you cant compare raidutilities in a vacuum like that.

    Another note, wanting to have a bear druid solely for T&C and their offtank ok'ish dps (with low vengeance) is in my opinion quite asinine. Was under the impression that there were no offtank classes anymore and all tanks should be balanced around being able to maintank : /


    [/COLOR]

    Now youre comparing active mitigation to a talentchoice that should have 100% uptime
    For T&C, it actualy mitigates quite a bit of damage while off-tanking (Or, not actively tanking anything, such as for tank swaps. Off tanking refers to any tank thats not actively tanking harder hitting mobs/bosses.) For paladins, its essentially 2 extra Sacred Shield absorbs per 6 seconds. For warriors, its an extra Shield Barrier per 6 seconds. DKs, extra rune tap per 6 seconds, and monks, an extra Expel Harm per 6 seconds in terms of healing done. It absorbs an amount equal to about 2/3rds of the druids current AP.

    And yea, druids have pretty low baseline dodge, with no dodge increase in bear form besides thier active mitigation.
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  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Raugnaut View Post
    For T&C, it actualy mitigates quite a bit of damage while off-tanking (Or, not actively tanking anything, such as for tank swaps. Off tanking refers to any tank thats not actively tanking harder hitting mobs/bosses.) For paladins, its essentially 2 extra Sacred Shield absorbs per 6 seconds. For warriors, its an extra Shield Barrier per 6 seconds. DKs, extra rune tap per 6 seconds, and monks, an extra Expel Harm per 6 seconds in terms of healing done. It absorbs an amount equal to about 2/3rds of the druids current AP.
    T&C only mitigates autoattacks and only from the target it's applied to. It can stack like the DK's Blood Shield, but if you're not actively tanking, your AP will be lower so it will still not be as high as when you've got the boss on you. It can be a life-saver when it's stacked up during one of Ji-Kun's channels prior to Talon Rake.

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