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  1. #201
    Fluffy Kitten Callei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by luccadeo View Post
    I wonder why the curse of undeath and the Curse of the Worgen only affect humans?
    The curse of undeath can affect any race, so long as the necromancer is sufficiently powerful, as seen in the death knight starting zone. The problem with the val'kyr is that they were only designed to raise vrykul, the genetic ancestors of humans--it's probably because humans are so similar to vrykul that the val'kyr can raise them. As for necromancers, it's probably more that they were being empowered by the Lich King, who was able to raise any race with little difficulty.

    edit: The worgen curse can, at the least, affect humans and night elves, as seen in the Curse of the Worgen comic and quest chatter in the worgen starting experience. Whether it affects anyone else is unknown so far, since nobody else has had the opportunity to have a worgen infect them in-lore.

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  2. #202
    The Lightbringer Auxis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by checking facts View Post
    1 - we empowered the sha of hatred (and all the others), but the sha of hatred used taran zhu as it's host because he was the best host available nearby. why? because he was BOILING with hatred towards the outsiders that were causing him so much trouble. that makes him hypocritical. he was pissed at us because we didn't control our emotions, but he couldn't control his emotions himself. if he could, the sha would have possessed someone else.
    The Shado-Pan were barely doing anything other than fighting off the mantid swarming every few years, and keeping an eye on the yaungol and sha, until we showed up. It was all too much for Taran to handle: us washing up on Jade Forest, our emotions and war causing the sha to sprout, the sha then affecting the yaungol and mantid with far greater influence.

    I find it completely understandable that he'd lose control after years of little concern.
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  3. #203
    Quote Originally Posted by luccadeo View Post
    I wonder why the curse of undeath and the Curse of the Worgen only affect humans?
    Worgen curse affected night elves first, the original wolf-men.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeror View Post
    "It cannot end like this!" is a popular quote by Blizzard. I heared several NPC's and bosses tell the same line.
    He should've said "Not again!" instead.

  4. #204
    Fluffy Kitten Callei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auxis View Post
    The Shado-Pan were barely doing anything other than fighting off the mantid swarming every few years, and keeping an eye on the yaungol and sha, until we showed up. It was all too much for Taran to handle: us washing up on Jade Forest, our emotions and war causing the sha to sprout, the sha then affecting the yaungol and mantid with far greater influence.

    I find it completely understandable that he'd lose control after years of little concern.
    To be fair, Taran Zhu is a lot tougher than you're giving him credit for. According to a preview version of Vol'jin's novel, he effortlessly takes out multiple mogu while they're giving Chen and Vol'jin problems one at a time. The problem was that all of the Shado-Pan's enemies rose up at the same time, as well as Sha that had reached levels of power there were no historical record of, stretching their low numbers thin (they're an elite fighting force more than a standing army with a bunch of redshirts). He lost control because we empowered Hatred far beyond any level it reached in history, and it used his hate of the outsiders that caused these problems as its in.

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  5. #205
    Quote Originally Posted by Callei View Post
    If you hate him because he's calling us out for fucking everything up, I would argue his points are hitting closer to home than you'd like.

    Your entire argument hinges on lack of context. Providing context deflates your position quite a bit.

    He was pissed at us because we empower the Sha. Controlling our emotions is a secondary thing--when we empowered the Sha, we allowed Anger to drive the yaungol in Kun-Lai mad, Fear to corrupt the mantid empress and force a swarm 100 years early, the other three to corrupt or possess other major figures in Pandaria, and Hatred to go after the Shado-Pan, who hated the factions because we had completely destabilized an otherwise-easily containable problem (the Zandalari and mogu could have been dealt with in short order had the Blackguards and Wu Kao not been tied up in Kun-Lai and at the wall) and empowered the Sha to a point that there was no historical record of the Sha having grown that powerful, not even when Shaohao beat them. That's why Hatred was able to get a foot in the door, so to speak.

    The irony being you're dismissive of the details of his situation but you're mad at him for being dismissive of the Horde's details. He doesn't care about the Horde's political situation. He cares about defending Pandaria from, among other things, the Sha, which we're responsible for empowering to this level.

    We fixed our own messes. As noted above, we are responsible for the Empress, the Yaungol, and the Sha all attacking at once at the level of power they'd reached. Otherwise, the Zandalari could have been taken care of as soon as they landed, which would have prevented Lei Shen's resurrection at all.

    Pride is the number one failing among the pandaren, because it's the one even Shaohao couldn't shake. Even so, even for their pride, even that Sha was containable until we came to the shores. He's prideful, but that doesn't make him wrong when considering that the outsiders have literally caused 80% of the problems we address in Pandaria proper.

    edit: Kosak, lead quest designer, is on-record that it's all of the Alliance and Horde, not just Garrosh, who empowered the Sha as soon as they made landfall. https://twitter.com/DaveKosak/status/340621581430706177
    there's no point in arguing with you if you ignore what I say and keep defending the points that I've already told you are correct. your arguments are empty when you are not arguing with me, but with the points that I don't care about. he has his reasons to hate me and his hatred of me makes me hate him. he is justified, but I don't give a fuck. do you love people that hate you and treat you like shit? I sure don't.

    you ended up proving my point, actually. "The irony being you're dismissive of the details of his situation but you're mad at him for being dismissive of the Horde's details. He doesn't care about the Horde's political situation. He cares about defending Pandaria from, among other things, the Sha, which we're responsible for empowering to this level". he doesn't care about my issues, and I don't care about his. he hates me, and because of that, I hate him.

    in fact I've been boiling of bloodlust for the shado-pan after reading the shortstory of the shado-pan children abuse. I'd just LOVE the opportunity to kill them in siege of orgrimmar, but instead I'm stuck having to kill characters I actually like, like the golden lotus or the klaxxi paragons.
    Last edited by checking facts; 2013-06-28 at 02:08 PM.
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  6. #206
    Fluffy Kitten Callei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by checking facts View Post
    there's no point in arguing with you if you ignore what I say and keep defending the points that I've already told you are correct. your arguments are empty when you are not arguing with me, but with the points that I don't care about. he has his reasons to hate me and his hatred of me makes me hate him. he is justified, but I don't give a fuck. do you love people that hate you and treat you like shit? I sure don't.
    You kept bringing up how it was only Garrosh's fault the Sha were empowered. I provided evidence to the contrary. You kept bringing up how Taran Zhu shouldn't have been possessed--I pointed out that there was no historical record of Sha being this powerful. Cho, someone whose entire life's purpose is to record history, says the only records came from legends that were more thought of as cautionary tales.

    If someone hates me for fully-justified reasons, I consider that time to give myself a good, hard look and figure out what's going on and what needs to change.

    in fact I've been boiling of bloodlust for the shado-pan after reading the shortstory of the shado-pan children abuse. I'd just LOVE the opportunity to kill them in siege of orgrimmar, but instead I'm stuck having to kill characters I actually like, like the golden lotus or the klaxxi paragons.
    Yeah, it's no-bueno bordering on monstrous, but keep in mind what they fight. They have to be Spartan about training new members to ensure each and every one of them is the best of the best, otherwise what happened when all of their enemies attacked would happen whenever there was a swarm or the yaungol went marauding. Doesn't excuse it, but again, context matters. And going by that short story, they are open and honest about the lethality of the trials, and go to great lengths to insist that anyone who doesn't want to risk their life in those trials can go home without shame.

    edit: Off to work. Back in about 12 hours.

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  7. #207
    Quote Originally Posted by Callei View Post
    Last time I checked, the Shado-Pan didn't go to Nagrand and stripmine Oshu'gun, or to Hyjal and dig up the World Tree. The Shado-Pan didn't unleash aspects of an Old God on Kalimdor or the Eastern Kingdoms. The Shado-Pan didn't send a massive army to Ashenvale with the intent of conquering the continent for its resources.

    The Shado-Pan hate us because we're the villains here. Hating them because they hate us for absolutely valid reasons completely misses the point of what he was saying at the Isle of Thunder: the Alliance and Horde were caught in a cycle of revenge because every time they struck back, it was a violent act that saw another violent act returned in kind. The Shado-Pan have, so far, done little more toward the factions than babysit us and spell it out in terms even a toddler can understand that we're doing nothing but making matters worse.

    I think a lot of the hate for Taran Zhu comes from the fact that he does not bow down and grovel at our feet telling us that we are heroes and saviors. So rather then accept the fact that the Alliance and Horde basically fucked up all of Pardaria we call Taran Zhu a hypocrite and liar and make him out to be the bad guy.

    Other then the early Mantid swarm we caused all the other Sha related issues that happened.

  8. #208
    Quote Originally Posted by Auxis View Post
    WTF? Since when did Tyrande sound like a Na'vi or a troll?
    Since they recorded new clips of her for the End Time/Well of Eternity instances during Cata. Supposedly it's the same VA, but for some reason some person directing it won't smack that accent out of her

  9. #209
    Pit Lord Zulkhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Callei View Post
    He was pissed at us because we empower the Sha. Controlling our emotions is a secondary thing--when we empowered the Sha, we allowed Anger to drive the yaungol in Kun-Lai mad, Fear to corrupt the mantid empress and force a swarm 100 years early, the other three to corrupt or possess other major figures in Pandaria, and Hatred to go after the Shado-Pan, who hated the factions because we had completely destabilized an otherwise-easily containable problem (the Zandalari and mogu could have been dealt with in short order had the Blackguards and Wu Kao not been tied up in Kun-Lai and at the wall) and empowered the Sha to a point that there was no historical record of the Sha having grown that powerful, not even when Shaohao beat them. That's why Hatred was able to get a foot in the door, so to speak.
    I don't think that Taran Zhu, following the questline in Pandaria, knew about the escape of the Sha of Fear and the corruption of the Mantid when he spoke to Xuen with Dezco and Anduin. We could easily argue that lorewise even the Sha of Anger didn't escape yet from the Monastery like we see him in Kun-Lai at that moment, so I have to think that the Sha's outbreak in the Monastery happened when Taran Zhu returned to the Monastery, and while we're doing all the stuff in Kun-Lai until the last quests, the Monastery became infested and Taran Zhu possesed, which should have closed the Kun-Lai storyline (we free Taran Zhu by the Sha and go to Townlong, where we find him soon after).

    What is not clear is if the 3 Sha in the Monastery broke free after the returning of Taran Zhu (after the talk with Xuen) or when he returned found the Monastery already in complete chaos, and the freed Sha of Hatred took possesion of him, since indeed he boiled more hatred inside him than anyone else (he was the head of the Shado-Pan so he probably felt the responsibility of what was happening on his back).

    You kept bringing up how it was only Garrosh's fault the Sha were empowered
    Ofcourse not, but Garrosh is the only accountable responsible for the unleashing of the Sha of Pride.

  10. #210
    Quote Originally Posted by Callei View Post
    You kept bringing up how it was only Garrosh's fault the Sha were empowered.
    I didn't say that. but the destruction of the vale IS 100% garrosh's fault and not mine. in fact, the 2 most prideful characters in-game right now are garrosh and taran zhu, who thinks his opinions are better than the ones of the celestials.

    You kept bringing up how Taran Zhu shouldn't have been possessed--I pointed out that there was no historical record of Sha being this powerful.
    I was in kun-lai too when he was possessed, and I didn't get possessed. if he did, he was more hateful than me. therefore, he contributed more to the sha of hatred's empowerment than I did.

    If someone hates me for fully-justified reasons, I consider that time to give myself a good, hard look and figure out what's going on and what needs to change.
    a beautiful take on life, but considering that no one else hates us in pandaria like taran zhu does (not even the celestials, that are above him as protectors of pandaria), I'd say the issue is with him.
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  11. #211
    The Insane Trassk's Avatar
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    Callei, you know I love you man, but I have to say, the thing with Taran Zhu and how he one minute says 'I don't give a shit about your political problems' and the next minute says 'bah, you don't take my political problems seriously!' is kind of the reason why I've grown to dislike him.

    its a bit of a double standard to demand it from others when giving little back. Sure you can argue that this is his land and he's right to feel this way, but with the fact if it wasn't for the horde and alliance, they could not have stood a chance against the thunder king, well, yeah, his political problems is something we addressed otherwise pandaren would have been in chains again.

    And horde and alliance do take care of these things, be it there own or the pandarens.

    If Zhu was to say 'we will lend our aid in bringing the tyrant hellscream to justice, but know this, we hold nothing for your faction conflict, once he is dealt with, we are gone', THAT would have been fine. But no, he didn't even give that to us after we dealt with the pandarens greatest enemy.
    Last edited by Trassk; 2013-06-28 at 03:10 PM.
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  12. #212
    Why should he care about our internal politics? We're coming to his land, mucking things up with the sha, and spilling blood on Pandaren land for reasons that don't concern the pandaren. It's Pandaria that's paying the price for this, with their sacred vale being desecrated. He deserves to be angry for this, especially when he called this happening.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-28 at 10:13 AM ----------

    Because of the good the Horde had done while on Pandaria, Dezco was able to talk Taran Zhu into giving him until the end of the season to make things right. And instead of that happening, Garrosh goes from digging a big hole in the sacred vale to completely desecrating it. I think a few words of anger are justified at this point.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-28 at 10:16 AM ----------

    And this isn't even just a simple case of 'he dug a hole in our pretty, sacred vale.' The waters that sustain the Pandaren, and possibly other races too, by allowing the valley of four winds to be such impossibly fantastic farmland have dried up, which could lead to massive food shortages if the vale isn't restored, having potential far reaching consequences, though some of the voice files indicate there is hope it can be restored.

  13. #213
    I'm curious to see if we get any sound files from Eitrigg or Saurfang. Thrall went off looking for them in 5.3 and we obviously find him but what about them?

  14. #214
    Quote Originally Posted by Wyattbw09 View Post
    Other then the early Mantid swarm we caused all the other Sha related issues that happened.
    Technically that's our fault too - freeing the Sha of Fear is what caused the early mantid swarm.

  15. #215
    New Kid Zaelsino's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zalinea View Post
    I'm curious to see if we get any sound files from Eitrigg or Saurfang. Thrall went off looking for them in 5.3 and we obviously find him but what about them?
    Saurfang's in Razor Hill in one of the new quests (possibly a warrior class quest, but I'm not sure). I wouldn't be surprised if he has a line or two.

  16. #216
    Quote Originally Posted by Scummer View Post
    You don't seem to understand why the lack of ramifications is jarring.
    I don't know if it should be a raid, scenario or dungeon or even simply a questline or event that happens during the SoO but something has to happen to Sylvanas and her Val'kyr that puts her in her place by Alliance hands.
    Her current storyline is getting out of control in the way that she has so far gone out of her way to provoke the Alliance and even the Argents and yet nothing has come of it, and now she's continuing to do the same shit during a time when there is meant to be a tenuous alliance between the Horde and Alliance to bring down Garrosh. Her voice lines indicate her Val'kyr have gotten more powerful.

    It is jarring to have somebody pull of so much shit as Sylvanas as of late and just have the Alliance forget what's happened. As it stand the Forsaken story appears to be in it's own snug little bubble where they can do what the hell they want and nothing will be done or said about.

    As it stand her doing the same crap and getting away with it is just bad story telling. I'm really hoping the rest of the voice files and raid content prove otherwise or else for Alliance fans the SoO will instead be a table flip moment and not a fist pumping moment for the Alliance.
    Going by that logic, the exact same thing has to happen to jaina as well. You think she can pull that shit in dalaran and have her ass get away scot free? no sir.

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  17. #217
    Flying around PTR and it looks like Zaela has got Galakras fully empowered.

    http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/823/lht.png/

  18. #218
    Quote Originally Posted by Derah View Post
    Going by that logic, the exact same thing has to happen to jaina as well. You think she can pull that shit in dalaran and have her ass get away scot free? no sir.
    What bugs me about that is the complete ignoring of the fact in game that while Jaine is the 'leader' of Dalaran they're still run by council of six. There should have been a vote on expelling the sunreavers and so far as we can tell the other 4 (sans Aethas) just ran with it.

  19. #219
    i've had my hopes up that zaela would be the one they're talking about when they mention "she's turning on her own towers" but what if it is gorganna from grizzly hills?? i would be very upset at the loss of zaela, but maybe that would open the path for more gorganna development?

  20. #220
    Pit Lord Zulkhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    Callei, you know I love you man, but I have to say, the thing with Taran Zhu and how he one minute says 'I don't give a shit about your political problems' and the next minute says 'bah, you don't take my political problems seriously!' is kind of the reason why I've grown to dislike him.
    Partially a fair point, but like Florena said, WE brought OUR war in HIS land, without a particular justification. He didn't have much reasons for caring about politics of strangers, regardless of the help given and considering all the mess he and his Shado-Pan had to deal with.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-28 at 08:20 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Florena View Post
    What bugs me about that is the complete ignoring of the fact in game that while Jaine is the 'leader' of Dalaran they're still run by council of six. There should have been a vote on expelling the sunreavers and so far as we can tell the other 4 (sans Aethas) just ran with it.
    That's one of the reasons that prove that Jaina's decision and following actions were irrational and hot-headed, and I guess that the rest of the Kirin Tor didn't have the guts nor a serious interest in opposing or just discussing with her, could even be possible that they wanted this outcome all along, but it's in the field of speculations.
    Last edited by Zulkhan; 2013-06-28 at 08:21 PM.

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