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  1. #341
    If some one is failing then its also the raid leaders failure, clearly if someone is having difficulty on a tactic it is up to the raid leader to help them better themselves not just curse and insult said person.

    If there was a few of you guys on while this was going on I would told him to STFU and get back to raid leading and stop nerd raging.

  2. #342
    Stood in the Fire Deffry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arothand View Post
    It always amazes me how raid leaders think they're some badass and can cuss/insult other people. Unless they're some 12-year old, any adult should understand how to talk to others, and yelling and screaming isn't the correct way. But it's typical in today's workplace as well - some buffoon gets promoted to manager and thinks that the right way to manage is to "rule by fear", and it seems that has bled over into games as well.

    If I ever had somebody like that rage at me, I'd basically tell them to fuck off, and leave the group. This is a GAME, played for FUN. Fun doesn't entail being yelled at by some internet tough guy.
    Tbh. there are people who like this approach. Back in the TBC and WotLK I used to raid in guild, where RL was simply an asshole. He was yelling, he was calling names etc. . If you screwed up something, he made you feel like a worthless scum. And I am quite sure, the attitude of our raid leader, was the reason why we were able to progress through SWP until to M'uru.

    There is not so much people who love it like this, but we were still able to fill our roster, because people, who LOVE to be under HUGE pressure, really exist.

    We were great players back then, but I am quite sure, that constant threat of RL's anger, was pushing us beyond level of average BT MH raiders.

    I do not say, that it is good nor that it is healthy approach, but it works for some small percentage of people.
    "Ubi sementem feceris, ita mettes."

  3. #343
    The Insane Wildtree's Avatar
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    It's good to see how many disapprove of the RL's behavior.. Means, not all hope is lost..
    Now the next step would be to outcast that type of self entitled jerks. What they don't realize is, how much of a bigger failure they are, compared to those who may make some mistake during some pixel moving on a computer. They are a much bigger failure, because they fail on the most simple Real Life tasks...
    "The pen is mightier than the sword.. and considerably easier to write with."

  4. #344
    Second thing, being a good raid leader means you do what you have to do

    A good raid leader needs to know how to lead a diverse group of people, all with different personalities. Too many alleged "good" raid leaders take a one size fits all approach with is, in fact, poor leadership. The key to leading any group of people is to understand what motivates them and being able to tune the feedback so that the recipient is willing to accept it and can be motivated to change whatever behavior needs to be changed. Some people do need a virtual dope slap to get the message and others need a different approach.

    For example, I effin hate getting yelled at in raids. If I make a mistake, I already know I made a mistake, I usually know what I need to do differently and just as important, I've already owned up to the mistake to the other raiders. All yelling at me is going to do is piss me off.

    I agree with the point that raid leaders need support from others who can take some of the weight so that the raid leader isn't always the villian.
    Stating an opinion as fact does not make it fact. Opinions are not fact. So don't be stupid and make a fool of yourself by trying to pass off your opinion as fact.

  5. #345
    My old guildleader went totally berserk on a rogue once.

    Rogue /gquit, went offline and i never saw him online again after that.

  6. #346
    Bloodsail Admiral Pencil's Avatar
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    You either need to get rid of him, or have stronger officers. Someone should speak against these kinds of people.

    A lot of you are saying the problem is one angry teen in a position of power, which is true. However, I'd argue its just as much the fault of other people. People on WoW are notoriously two-faced. They'll ramble on about how bad their leader is in /w but never SAY anything to the person. Without someone from the crowd sticking up for the victim of this abuse, the guy will never learn. Kicking him outright won't teach him anything and won't make you guys any better at sticking up for oneanother.

    We have an angry raid-leader in our guild. He's pretty fine most of the time but if we've wiped excessively he can go overboard and a little mental. I usually (even just as a member) say "Well that shouting was absolutely pointless, shall we continue and try again?". The key in confronting these people over mumble, TS, vent, w/e. These guys that rage all the time are usually the weakest and most fragile beings INRL anyway, and I don't mean in a physical sense. They're easily broken.

    Or, alternatively, if you're not the person he's shouting at and you're in a position of power, e.g. a tank, just threaten to leave if this sort of bullshit treatment of members continues. It works for me.
    Last edited by Pencil; 2013-07-05 at 12:11 PM.
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  7. #347
    The Insane Wildtree's Avatar
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    One can approach it with a reality comparison. But there's the problem, since too many people in this game have zero concept what reality bears, and how it works..
    But for the approach..
    Let's be generous and compare the task of a raider, with the task of an employee at work. Let's for the sake of it compare the raid leader with a supervisor/dept manager.
    In reailty: When an employee makes mistakes, it's the supervisors/managers job to make the employee aware of it, and to ensure the employee won't repeat the mistake again. And now, much like in the game, there are all kinds of supervisors and managers out there. Some approach their position like a dictator. Bossing everyone around, calling people out for the slightest mistake, or calling them names, and what not.
    Few employees fear them.. Almost all dislike them.. And almost none has any kind of respect for them. In fact, when it would count and matters, and the employee has a chance, he will leave the supervisor/manager stand there alone in the rain of a difficult situation. Why would you help someone, why would you go the extra mile for someone who otherwise treats you like shit with very little respect or any at all for you?
    Modern management handling knows of this. Managers and Supervisors are actually trained (in good companies) to properly interact with the people assigned to them. The most productive people are those who do their job happy. And the most successful and productive departments are those with a leader which is respected and liked by his/her team. And how do you get that respect and "love"? You earn it by treating your people with respect, kindness and skill.
    Now where can that be transported into the game?
    By the fact that after all, raiders are people too. Humans, and with that the simple psychology that applies to IRL matters, also applies to ingame matters.
    From there.. if there's a problem with a players performance, then do some 1 on 1 counseling. Get to the root of the problem with the player in question. Help them to improve, by finding out why they are not up to par and give them pointers and support.
    If you treat them like shit, to the point where they'd get a emotional breakdown, you are crossing a line right there..
    Last edited by Wildtree; 2013-07-05 at 12:29 PM.
    "The pen is mightier than the sword.. and considerably easier to write with."

  8. #348
    A friend of mine would lead raids and tended to get...stressed. She would yell and say things she didn't mean in vent simply because of frustration. She would correct people about things they weren't even doing wrong. I raided with her once, and had a panic attack since I kept messing up. My roommate jumped in and took over for me. RL got mad since she wanted me to raid, not my roommate, and acted rude to both of us. I wound up having to rip her a new one later on (after apologizing for myself) for her behavior. She doesn't know it but many times there were people who spoke behind her back. an entire group of people in our guild performed a mass EXODUS to another realm because of the way she treated some of them. She hardly raids anymore, but she still gets stressed sometimes when she does.

    The best thing to do with people who can be toxic about raiding is to just cut them out of your schedule, or cut them completely out of your life. Whether it's temporary or permanent, if you are getting stressed with someone and they are being rude to you, you need to distance yourself from them. When the time is right, calmly tell them what they did wrong from your point of view. If they can't understand then, they're not worth having around. Simple as that.
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  9. #349
    Keyboard Turner xMissXx's Avatar
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    Outside of casually raiding tiers behind, I haven't raided since TBC and Vanilla with any full dedication. That being said, I think I was either sincerely lucky or things have changed since then as there are a few things that would have *never* happened during a guild raid on a progression fight;

    Any chatter on vent BESIDES the raid leader and/or the DKP-Loot Master; I've noticed in many of the videos that I've watched as well as the few halfhearted attempts I've made to get back with a serious raiding guild that this doesn't seem to be a sacred thing anymore. People might quiet up during a boss but on trash, vent is clogged with personal garbage and irrelevant info -- a GREAT way to miss something important happening or being said, which also brings me to another point...

    Fighting with the raid leader and/or interjecting your leet strat after three wipes on a boss and getting antsy; In two years of dedicated progression raiding, I never ever saw anyone talk over, fight, or back talk the raid leader and strategies were refined and discussed by class leaders / raid leader AFTER a raid if unsuccessful at downing a boss. From my last attempt to join a raiding guild and from the videos I've seen, people like to start undermining the raid leader mid raid because things aren't going well which is NEVER successful.

    I guess the point is - I can understand why some of these guys go absolutely berserk. Appropriate? Maybe not. Understandable? Absolutely.

    It comes down to respecting and trusting your guildies, frankly. All 39 people in our raids knew our raid leader wasn't a jackass - so he was given the respect of his position and was allowed to lead effectively. A raid leaders job isn't to micro manage how their raiders play their classes, it's to execute a successful raid. So they in turn need to respect and trust their class leads who should be on top of their own tanks or dps or healers when a correction is needed. So when it gets down the totem pole to the raider, for instance myself - who was raiding as a healer, I had to respect and trust my class/heal lead when I'm given constructive criticism.

    My trial phase was about 3 months long, and I saw others come and go during this time. If you couldn't listen to directions, couldn't perform your job, handle constructive criticism and apply it, or have a basic level of maturity and character - you either left by yourself or were dismissed politely.

    You aren't going to see trial phases that long nowadays (generally) and when you pick up people who are just ilvl appropriate to toss them in a raid and hope they mesh with everyone in your guild - it's most likely not going to end well.

  10. #350
    My healing lead on one of the hardcore guilds I was in used to tell us she'd rape our grandmothers and rip our throats out if we messed up a fight...quite possible that someone cried because of that

  11. #351
    Quote Originally Posted by Erous View Post
    My healing lead on one of the hardcore guilds I was in used to tell us she'd rape our grandmothers and rip our throats out if we messed up a fight...quite possible that someone cried because of that
    Whoa. Taking things a bit far...
    Quote Originally Posted by Bergtau View Post
    And since we're dredging up old-world stuff, she should be happy she was even allowed to become a nurse at all instead of being raped.

  12. #352
    Quote Originally Posted by Arkenaw View Post
    No, this is precisely why I don't raid anymore, I hate the drama. Also because I'm in a guild with some nice people now, but they're really casual.
    Pretty much my sentiments. I got tired of Tyrannical Raid Leaders giving people shit whenever mistakes were made. the fact that it's still a GAME, & people are HUMAN, & prone to MAKING MISTAKES seems to be lost on them. Sure, I don't enjoy LFR as much as I'd like (Too hit-&-miss in terms of player quality-wise) but I'd rather 'lol-raid' at my leisure than show up for 3-4 hours the same days week in week out on progression & get my arse handed to me if I dared not perform my role 100% correctly.

    It may be for some, but not for me, & it appears I'm not alone.
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    [12:07:45] <+Radux> i think Bibi should post a super passive agressive message in there. like "OH NO LOVE FOR BIBI. I SEE HOW IT IS. YOU'RE WELCOME FOR CREATING THE SITE. CARRY ON."

    OH NO LOVE FOR BIBI. I SEE HOW IT IS. YOU'RE WELCOME FOR CREATING THE SITE. CARRY ON.

  13. #353
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    The thing is being a raid leader is kind of like being a lead or supervisor at a job. There are good management approaches and bad management approaches, but screaming profanities and/or being rude and insulting to somebody is never the right choice. You can be stern (e.g. "Bob, pay attention to when the fire spawns this time or I'm going to have to replace you; this is the third time you've died to it.") without sounding like a wannabe tough guy (e.g. "Bob you f-ing idiot what the f- are you doing? Stop standing in the f-ing fire you f-ing retard or your ass is f-ing gone! F-ing learn to f-ing play you f-ing moron!"). Naturally the proper way to handle this is after the attempt, not during. Maybe it's just me but if we have a wipe I like having a couple of minutes to recap while everyone is running back in and buffing to go over A) Why we just wiped and B) What we can do to prevent it this time around.

    I think a lot of these "if you mess up you get cussed out" raid leaders need to take some kind of management class to learn how to properly manage people.
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  14. #354
    The Patient kenshinag's Avatar
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    Today we were derping pretty hard on the bridge weekly mini boss in ToT and wiped to him and knock backs 3 times before we killed it. This was after he told us that if we wipe again we're done raiding for the night. This was also after we 1 shot jin'rohk when we usually take 3-4 attempts so we were feeling pretty confident.

    Our RL is awesome though. Very tough love. He'll yell but explain clearly why he's frustrated and yelling. He always follows it up with "I know you can do better than this, that's why I'm so tough on you. I won't let you be bad." Or something to that sort. And when we do kill it, lots of positive re-inforcement. That's what makes a good RL I think.
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  15. #355
    The Lightbringer Keile's Avatar
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    My old Raid Leader (and IRL Best Friend) has not only made people cry, but caused them to quit the game entirely. On more than one occasion.

    He is a great person IRL, but ingame he has zero tolerance for being bad especially when given multiple chances to improve yourself.
    There is a thin line between not knowing and not caring, and I like to think that I walk that line every day.

  16. #356
    Quote Originally Posted by kenshinag View Post
    Today we were derping pretty hard on the bridge weekly mini boss in ToT and wiped to him and knock backs 3 times before we killed it. This was after he told us that if we wipe again we're done raiding for the night. This was also after we 1 shot jin'rohk when we usually take 3-4 attempts so we were feeling pretty confident.

    Our RL is awesome though. Very tough love. He'll yell but explain clearly why he's frustrated and yelling. He always follows it up with "I know you can do better than this, that's why I'm so tough on you. I won't let you be bad." Or something to that sort. And when we do kill it, lots of positive re-inforcement. That's what makes a good RL I think.
    I'd blame your raid leader for not pulling the mini boss back toward Jinrokhs room.

    You need to have a certain amount of tolerance, you can't just yell and say things. Everyone, for different reasons, can sometimes screw up on something. If you're the type of person who constantly does that kind of thing, something like dying to focus lightning or dying each time to the dancing on Jinrokh, then I'd start getting pretty upset with people.

    But anyway, some people really shouldn't be raid leaders in the first place
    Last edited by chocobo606; 2013-07-05 at 03:13 PM.

  17. #357
    Field Marshal Placebo's Avatar
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    I find myself getting what could be considered aggresive, but I feel I fall short of "bullying". Anyone who would consider it as such would probably not have the mental resilience for raiding anyway.

  18. #358
    Keyboard Turner xMissXx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celista View Post
    Whoa. Taking things a bit far...
    Agree. Sounds like a woman in a leadership role trying to meet the boys on common and equal footing yet missing the mark entirely to the point of coming off crass and offensive to even perhaps the people/gender she intended on impressing in the first place. Yikes!
    Last edited by xMissXx; 2013-07-05 at 03:30 PM. Reason: Added forgotten quote

  19. #359
    Quote Originally Posted by Arothand View Post
    Maybe it's just me but if we have a wipe I like having a couple of minutes to recap while everyone is running back in and buffing to go over A) Why we just wiped and B) What we can do to prevent it this time around.

    I think a lot of these "if you mess up you get cussed out" raid leaders need to take some kind of management class to learn how to properly manage people.

    ...And what happens when you play Mr. Nice Guy Raid Leader the first, second, or even third time someone makes the same mistake. Are you going to keep that smile on your face when 9 or 24 other people are dealing with the same mechanic and only 1 person keeps messing it up repeatedly causing your group to run back over and over?

    I'm not saying a raid leader should be cussing, to each their own, but it should be their raid, and their standards for excellence. If you can't live up to those standards you should be prepared to get talked to.

    You don't go to a new job and go through orientation or training, and then mess something up so that everyone else has to clean up your work. You do that enough IRL and you get fired or constantly reprimanded. Don't pretend that just because you're killing internet dragons that the way people feel about standards changes.

  20. #360
    Quote Originally Posted by Pearsyn View Post
    ...And what happens when you play Mr. Nice Guy Raid Leader the first, second, or even third time someone makes the same mistake. Are you going to keep that smile on your face when 9 or 24 other people are dealing with the same mechanic and only 1 person keeps messing it up repeatedly causing your group to run back over and over?

    I'm not saying a raid leader should be cussing, to each their own, but it should be their raid, and their standards for excellence. If you can't live up to those standards you should be prepared to get talked to.

    You don't go to a new job and go through orientation or training, and then mess something up so that everyone else has to clean up your work. You do that enough IRL and you get fired or constantly reprimanded. Don't pretend that just because you're killing internet dragons that the way people feel about standards changes.
    You can replace someone or tell them to fix what they're doing without turning into a raging loonatic. I find it concerning that people don't realise that, and seem to accept a violent rage as a normal and acceptable means of communication and management.

    To use your job analogy, you don't scream at your collegues if they do something wrong, otherwise you'll find yourself on the wrong end of an investigation and find yourself being moved along. I've seen that happen more than once. There's an old phrase about 'two wrongs...'

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