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  1. #401
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Blackmore View Post
    What's laughable are people who think the RL's behavior was in any way acceptable. And seriously, you're expecting people to have empathy for people who choose to be raid leaders? How about... NO. If someone can't act rationally and hold their temper in difficult circumstances, the shouldn't be a raid leader and I hope to hell they're not in charge of people in the real world.

    The fact that you're calling people "fucking morons" says a lot about your attitude toward other players.



    Nice assumptions there, Sparky.
    Considering, and heres a wild assumption for you considering my last one was based on replys in this thread That you've most likely never had to deal with the hassle of organizing 9 other human beings of varying different personality's, usually whilst being a GM and having to sort out all of the guilds issues from drama down to finances, who to bench, tiny things like finding the right tactic for your competition on a heroic boss - THEN To have one guy fuck it up because he was to busy tunnelling the boss and didn't realize you could ground totem a important ability for another 8~ wipes (Speaking from experience on this one) people WILL get frustrated with you.

    Its not a game of sunshine and ponys, if you're terrible, or doing way under what people have come to expect of you or what you present yourself to be then you're going to have people get pissed off at you. this applys to both real life AND raiding, whilst one is trivial in its comparison trying to make the connection of a job to raiding is silly on the exterior the standards are there, come perform your best get rewarded etc.

    And yet you, yourself assume one being angry at someone else is this huge grudgematch top of there voice fiasco trying to justify his actions by that. No, just no.

  2. #402
    Moderator Gehco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maeryn View Post
    Considering, and heres a wild assumption for you considering my last one was based on replys in this thread That you've most likely never had to deal with the hassle of organizing 9 other human beings of varying different personality's, usually whilst being a GM and having to sort out all of the guilds issues from drama down to finances, who to bench, tiny things like finding the right tactic for your competition on a heroic boss - THEN To have one guy fuck it up because he was to busy tunnelling the boss and didn't realize you could ground totem a important ability for another 8~ wipes (Speaking from experience on this one) people WILL get frustrated with you.

    Its not a game of sunshine and ponys, if you're terrible, or doing way under what people have come to expect of you or what you present yourself to be then you're going to have people get pissed off at you. this applys to both real life AND raiding, whilst one is trivial in its comparison trying to make the connection of a job to raiding is silly on the exterior the standards are there, come perform your best get rewarded etc.

    And yet you, yourself assume one being angry at someone else is this huge grudgematch top of there voice fiasco trying to justify his actions by that. No, just no.
    But, you're missing a point. If you (as a raid leader) rage so much that it even makes someone cry, then you've failed your job. Yes, terrible to manage human beings and yes, you may need to be strict. But you fail at managing a raid if you have to heavily rage at people. Then it is as much your fault as their.
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  3. #403
    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    But, you're missing a point. If you (as a raid leader) rage so much that it even makes someone cry, then you've failed your job. Yes, terrible to manage human beings and yes, you may need to be strict. But you fail at managing a raid if you have to heavily rage at people. Then it is as much your fault as their.
    It's a ranging degree of variables considering some people can be emotionally frail and throw wobblers at the slightest negativity, which is not accounted for in this thread. the RL could've been a really passive aggressive jerk or some roidrage psycho screaming at the top of his lungs, both can cause people to cry.

    That being said I've never once heard anyone cry over a game, I'm stuck in my way of thinking that most people on the internet are thickskined because your run of the mill delinquent have jaded them, with the odd exception every now and then.

  4. #404
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maeryn View Post
    It's a ranging degree of variables considering some people can be emotionally frail and throw wobblers at the slightest negativity, which is not accounted for in this thread. the RL could've been a really passive aggressive jerk or some roidrage psycho screaming at the top of his lungs, both can cause people to cry.

    That being said I've never once heard anyone cry over a game, I'm stuck in my way of thinking that most people on the internet are thickskined because your run of the mill delinquent have jaded them, with the odd exception every now and then.
    Problem was, she wasn't crying over a game but over the raid leader raging at them and calling them names, after what I saw. And if some is frail, then you as a leader has to be aware of that as well. There is no excuse to rage over people at all.

    You can act as annoyed as you want - but no excuse to rage over a game. If the problem would have kept going, then remove the ones that cannot follow the tactics.. And on that phase, it's not really healers fault but everyones - You need to keep dancing.
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  5. #405
    Not trying to be sexist here, but would this thread even be here if it was all male players shouting at each other?
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  6. #406
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    Quote Originally Posted by MasterHamster View Post
    Not trying to be sexist here, but would this thread even be here if it was all male players shouting at each other?
    Actually, in my book, yes. You still suck as a leader if you make anyone cry, really. Though, most male players I know just rage quit themselves if the raid leader rages.
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  7. #407
    Quote Originally Posted by MasterHamster View Post
    Not trying to be sexist here, but would this thread even be here if it was all male players shouting at each other?
    I've known many emotional men and emotionally-stunted women. A lot of things are a contributor to why people are that way, including culture, religion, upbringing, sexual orientation, mind state, etc.
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  8. #408
    Do you have audio of what was said? It would make the thread more excit... err, would make it easier for us to tell you if the 'yelling' was mean or not. Yeah, that's it.

    Audio recording please.

  9. #409
    Many of the people that i raided with over the years told me that i was the most calm and comforting raidlead they ever had. As long as people are willing to work with me and the group, everything is fine.

    That being said, i also made people cry. But it was never because i was screaming. Whenever i get loud, i'll give two prior warnings and try to adress the raid as a whole (for example i try to stick with "we" instead of "you" while spouting rage)
    What made people cry is when i calmly and methodically took them apart based on the mistakes they made. Oh and one time at heroic Ragnaros with a guy that bickered about strategy between every try - I just had him lead the raid and declared his mistakes fair for open discussion.

  10. #410
    I'm my guild's raid leader and female and no, I've never made any of my boys cry.

  11. #411
    Quote Originally Posted by Maeryn View Post
    That you've most likely never had to deal with the hassle of organizing 9 other human beings of varying different personality's, usually whilst being a GM and having to sort out all of the guilds issues from drama down to finances, who to bench, tiny things like finding the right tactic for your competition on a heroic boss - THEN To have one guy fuck it up because he was to busy tunnelling the boss and didn't realize you could ground totem a important ability for another 8~ wipes (Speaking from experience on this one) people WILL get frustrated with you.
    Suffice it to say that while I've never been a raid leader, I'm experienced in leading teams in real life. Ranging from small teams up to teams of over 2 dozen people. What I learned is that every person is different and needs to be handled differently. What works with one person may end up as tears and resentment with another person. I also have very little empathy for people who choose to put themselves into the role of raid leader and and then can't keep their shit together when dealing with people.

    I understand being frustrated. What I don't accept is that yelling at people is an effective tactic most of the time. I understand that sometimes it can get people's attention. But when it crosses the line into personal insults and raging, then it's lost all of it's usefulness.

    Its not a game of sunshine and ponys, if you're terrible, or doing way under what people have come to expect of you or what you present yourself to be then you're going to have people get pissed off at you. this applys to both real life AND raiding, whilst one is trivial in its comparison trying to make the connection of a job to raiding is silly on the exterior the standards are there, come perform your best get rewarded etc.
    Again, getting pissed and being a jackass to someone over it are two different things.

    And yet you, yourself assume one being angry at someone else is this huge grudgematch top of there voice fiasco trying to justify his actions by that. No, just no.
    Never wrote that, never assumed it.
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  12. #412
    As a RL I'm calm, prolly too calm (I'm not a very good RL :P), haven't made anybody cry that I know of (although I p'd one of the druid healers off when she had issues moving and healing on Tortos and offered to go healing myself since I had my keybinds set up to allow for mobile healing, ah well) here, but was druid CL before becoming an officer and one of our trial druids had a hard time getting adjusted to cata healing and in the process of communicating this she got a bit upset. Worked out well though and she became a very good healer after that, altho granted quit raiding not long after that again, lol.

  13. #413
    Quote Originally Posted by HollerTH View Post
    Funny that people wonder why I refuse to join a "real" raid guild.
    Because this one incident is totally representative of the entire raiding playerbase.

    Hint: it isn't. These people are a minority and I have no idea why anyone would want to be in such a guild as there are plenty of friendly raiding guilds where the raidleader is not a raging, screaming douchebag.

    I prefer the screaming and yelling raid leader to the everyones friend type. In my experience only the guilds I was in with yelling raid leaders got anywhere the other type would get stuck midway through a raid tier because they couldn't call out bad play for fear of hurting anyone's feelings.
    There is a difference between being upfront and calling people out on their mistakes and going full nerdrage on the raid. That's the difference between a good raidleader and a douchebag.
    Last edited by Thorakh; 2013-07-08 at 02:27 PM.

  14. #414
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    Haven't really made anyone cry, but this tier the pressure to perform (after being the cause of a wipe night) have made 4 healers quit wow completely :-/

  15. #415
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by santa666 View Post
    Haven't really made anyone cry, but this tier the pressure to perform (after being the cause of a wipe night) have made 4 healers quit wow completely :-/
    Most of the time when I see healers being blamed for wipes I look at the logs and see otherwise. People dying to avoidable damage and then blaming the healers instead of fixing their issues would make any healer want to quit. Considering you have had not 1 but 4 healers quit, I am betting that is the case.

  16. #416
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thorakh View Post
    Because this one incident is totally representative of the entire raiding playerbase.

    Hint: it isn't. These people are a minority and I have no idea why anyone would want to be in such a guild as there are plenty of friendly raiding guilds where the raidleader is not a raging, screaming douchebag.
    Have you seen how many people, even in this thread, actually agreed that "screaming is what raid leaders do"? Thankfully there were people who disagreed, but the fact there are people who think it's not only acceptable but the norm is kind of... well, discouraging :/

    When I raided my rl were easygoing and fun. Then again we were a casual guild... when we went a bit more hardcore (and I say a bit) my raid leader was the exact opposite, actually :/ he had a bad habit of bottling all the things that bothered him inside and he wouldn't talk to people about then until it was too late and everyone was confused what had happened, needless to say that was not good at all.

    I know it can be infuriating when people do the same mistakes over and over again, or don't even notice what they're doing wrong, but calling people names or verbally attacking them is not going to work on the long run. You can be strict, even harsh, and never cross the line to raging asshole. Now, super sensitive people do exist and there are people who will get hurt even if you only suggest they'd step one more step to the right, but their existence does not mean "everyone is just sensitive im just honest when i scream and yell"

  17. #417
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I'd be more worried about raiding with the GM's fiancee tbh . . .

    As for the RL, yeah he needed the kick. I'd understand if he went berserk with a team he raided with for weeks and that was stuck on the same boss doing the same mistake again and again but if he rages on the 4th wipe, he is too much of a wuss to be a raid leader anyway. Gotta get a thicker skin first.
    Feel's like people can't take progression anymore. Most of the time people are like, Insert Coin and Win...if there is any hiccup, learning curve, need for practice, people simply rage quit.

    What happened to 75 wipes on a boss for a 10% progress. Or to long dungeon crawls. Or to 100 wipes just to get a specific achievement.

    As when it comes to Raid Leading. For optimum performance you need someone who has authority. Authority is not question of how hard can you scream, but rather a calm and composed authority, but one that is enforced too. Not listening must have consequences. Essentially if you are told something two or three times and you still refuse to play by the rules or you are unable too, you should either excuse yourself or the raid leader has the obligation to kick you from the raid/replace you, for the sake of progression.

    Also a raid can't have 20 Chiefs and 5 Indians. People need to learn to accept their roles and take directions. Usually within you defined roles you have a lot of space to make your own choices and decisions, of course as long as you fulfill the tasks the group and the leader expects from you.
    Last edited by Mihalik; 2013-07-08 at 04:52 PM.
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    Woman rapes a guy, gives birth to child and has custody of the child.
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  18. #418
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freia View Post
    Most of the time when I see healers being blamed for wipes I look at the logs and see otherwise. People dying to avoidable damage and then blaming the healers instead of fixing their issues would make any healer want to quit. Considering you have had not 1 but 4 healers quit, I am betting that is the case.
    Normally i suppose your right, but they kept dying to the avoidable damage them selfs, causing the wipes. Not other way around.
    Dead healer is no healer ^^

  19. #419
    Oh I've raged to the point where my vision was blurry. There was a young guy, probably 15 or 16, fucking around on KT when we had him at about 10% hp. Mind you, we were going for immortal and the cheers and what not were already starting. So anyway, dumb shit dies when KT is at 3% and I completely verbal fucked him. I do not think I have ever been more pissed in general, regardless of reason. I relentlessly dug in to this player and after a few guild swaps this player had made, and me making it my mission in game to get him removed from any raiding slot. He eventually transferred off the server.

  20. #420
    Quote Originally Posted by SirMeo View Post
    Have you seen how many people, even in this thread, actually agreed that "screaming is what raid leaders do"? Thankfully there were people who disagreed, but the fact there are people who think it's not only acceptable but the norm is kind of... well, discouraging :/

    When I raided my rl were easygoing and fun. Then again we were a casual guild... when we went a bit more hardcore (and I say a bit) my raid leader was the exact opposite, actually :/ he had a bad habit of bottling all the things that bothered him inside and he wouldn't talk to people about then until it was too late and everyone was confused what had happened, needless to say that was not good at all.

    I know it can be infuriating when people do the same mistakes over and over again, or don't even notice what they're doing wrong, but calling people names or verbally attacking them is not going to work on the long run. You can be strict, even harsh, and never cross the line to raging asshole. Now, super sensitive people do exist and there are people who will get hurt even if you only suggest they'd step one more step to the right, but their existence does not mean "everyone is just sensitive im just honest when i scream and yell"
    I'm going to be honest with you, people can be dumb. I know, who knew? But it happens. And sometimes when they are unbelievable dumb, you want a raid leader that you know will not put up with their stupid crap, because you don't want to end up in a raid where everyone just lets people get away with really stupid crap and hurts the progression of 9 or 24 other people. It is just a waste of time and not to mention your player retention for the entire guild is going to be really bad.

    As long as the raid leader keeps his yelling about the game and doesn't make it personal, then I see no problem with it. If you've ever been in a raid then you know that sometimes someone just needs to get mad and yell to get people focused to finally get that kill, I've seen this happen so many times.

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