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  1. #21
    I just spent the night in the arena after being on a break for a while and so far I just don't see how warlocks are supposed to cope with the burst going out without the 10% damage reduction from Fel Armor.

  2. #22
    Field Marshal Riven's Avatar
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    Honestly the biggest problem for Warlocks right now (apart from lol get trained all day) is Battle Fatigue. As Affliction if I wanted to use the Observer and hit Sacrificial Pact, it's like a 80k absorb. It's like, one instant cast lava burst's worth of a defensive. It's terrible. Not to mention Dark Regen and Healthstone tick for under 5k with a MS effect active.

    Sure, warlocks have a ton of defensives, the problem is that they don't actually do anything though because of battle fatigue. Same with DK's AMS and Death Pact, AMS is barely a 100k absorb, hardly enough to save you through anything. Meanwhile Cloak on a 1 minute cooldown is comparably so much better it's absurd

    Not saying Battle Fatigue is bad overall, but for specific abilities it makes them basically useless due to how much they more being reduced. Eg. Death Pact/sac pact/AMS/dark regen are terrible due to how little they heal/absorb and battle fatigue really shouldn't work on those spells, however for stuff like Conversion and Ember Tap, if they didn't have battle fatigue affecting them the DK/Lock would be immortal. Which is a bad thing overall.
    Last edited by Riven; 2013-06-30 at 03:21 PM.

  3. #23
    I'm afraid, my warlock brethren, that Blizzard believes baseline Howl is somehow the answer to all of our prayers.
    Those who you know as Warlocks are your Salvation through Destruction. You exist because we allow it, and you will end because we demand it.

  4. #24
    Stood in the Fire Kanariya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anothdae View Post
    You mean flameglow? Yeah, it is still there.
    People actually take that talent?

  5. #25
    In my opinion, Dark Bargain should be baseline,too. Replace it with 15% all damage reduce for area,because other 2 talents are so shit for areans.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Kanariya View Post
    People actually take that talent?
    When I think of Flameglow, I think of Soul Link. People think its terrible, but good players know better.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Teye View Post
    When I think of Flameglow, I think of Soul Link. People think its terrible, but good players know better.
    Gief old Soul Link back
    Destruction cataclysm arena video

  8. #28
    I'd settle for soul linked pets taking 90% reduced damage from players. Then at least you could try using the talent in pvp without it being a death sentence. Wouldn't touch pve balance whatsoever either.

    Devs need to rethink locks in pvp. We basically get 1-2 OP abilities we crutch on, they get nerfed (which they should be), but we never get fixed elsewhere. So its sort of like kicking crutches out from under a wounded person, then pulling the wheel chair out from under them, then walking away citing how they will not need the wheelchair if they were healthy. Yet you don't ever fix the class so we get walked on.

    If we aren't meant to get away then our dps toolkit needs to work whie wearing melee as a buttplug. So stuff like uninterruptable aff fillers, 3x backdrafted instant chaosbolts, etc needs to happen since "useability" is one area you can buff locks without touching PVE. Also means that if melee can run a pve rotation on us we need better passive mitigation in an era where the goal is to remove that and when pve lock durability is too good. Soul leech already "fixed" that but again pvp hasn't been fixed in the slightest. Locks need 15 sec gateway to not die to unhealable cleave damage. The rest of the lock's team does not. Can we compromise on a 15 sec lock gateway CD and a 60 sec for non locks? Guldan only snaring 50% is clearly not enough when all melee snare you that much (or more) passively. 70% snare with high uptime or putting a root on guldan would make it at least an option....why is it locks are the only ranged with no root when we have the dps mechanics that are the most easily shut down? HP costs on spells with cooldowns don't get nerfed by resil or pvp but nerfing our absorbs/self healing to a point where they cease to be effective is the norm. EG drain/harvest life vs battle fatigue being a loss to even use. No other class in the game has that problem.

    Something has to give in terms of lock pvp. Devs need to figure out which direction they are comfortable with locks taking that actually works in pvp. Can't get away, can't fight back when pushed, and nerfing survival in almost every way is not fixing anything. Decide what we should be able to do and give us the toolkit to do it.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevkul View Post
    I just spent the night in the arena after being on a break for a while and so far I just don't see how warlocks are supposed to cope with the burst going out without the 10% damage reduction from Fel Armor.
    Equipping 2 PvP trinkets gives 10% damage reduction in 5.4

  10. #30
    flameglow after the nerf is almost 0 to pve any mage goes or with temporal shield or ice barrier, and dont forget that with hc gear any warlock haves +100k HP that the equivalent mage.

    temporal shield its on use of 4 seconds - that will not prevent you from death, with a 25sec CD, and force you to preview the damage.
    ice barrier is a on use that will prevent damage usualy arround 60k - 100k-

    if you think like this the extra HP a warlock haves its almost like a ice barrier 100% uptime....

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by invictusordead View Post

    if you think like this the extra HP a warlock haves its almost like a ice barrier 100% uptime....
    Sort of, but a warlock is balanced around getting trained into the ground (or should be). A mage has a 15s cd escape mechanic and several roots, so in essence a mage is balanced similarly to TBC rogues in that both are/were balanced around not receiving a lot of sustained damage, but when damaged it HURTS (refer to: glass cannon).
    Those who you know as Warlocks are your Salvation through Destruction. You exist because we allow it, and you will end because we demand it.

  12. #32
    The Patient Slowbro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Niberion View Post
    I'm pretty sure blizzard stated they weren't done with warlocks yet, be patient and see what they have for us
    Nerfs my friend! Nerfs!
    D:

    ---------- Post added 2013-07-01 at 05:36 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Werst View Post
    I'd settle for soul linked pets taking 90% reduced damage from players. Then at least you could try using the talent in pvp without it being a death sentence. Wouldn't touch pve balance whatsoever either.

    Devs need to rethink locks in pvp. We basically get 1-2 OP abilities we crutch on, they get nerfed (which they should be), but we never get fixed elsewhere. So its sort of like kicking crutches out from under a wounded person, then pulling the wheel chair out from under them, then walking away citing how they will not need the wheelchair if they were healthy. Yet you don't ever fix the class so we get walked on.


    If we aren't meant to get away then our dps toolkit needs to work whie wearing melee as a buttplug. So stuff like uninterruptable aff fillers, 3x backdrafted instant chaosbolts, etc needs to happen since "useability" is one area you can buff locks without touching PVE. Also means that if melee can run a pve rotation on us we need better passive mitigation in an era where the goal is to remove that and when pve lock durability is too good. Soul leech already "fixed" that but again pvp hasn't been fixed in the slightest. Locks need 15 sec gateway to not die to unhealable cleave damage. The rest of the lock's team does not. Can we compromise on a 15 sec lock gateway CD and a 60 sec for non locks? Guldan only snaring 50% is clearly not enough when all melee snare you that much (or more) passively. 70% snare with high uptime or putting a root on guldan would make it at least an option....why is it locks are the only ranged with no root when we have the dps mechanics that are the most easily shut down? HP costs on spells with cooldowns don't get nerfed by resil or pvp but nerfing our absorbs/self healing to a point where they cease to be effective is the norm. EG drain/harvest life vs battle fatigue being a loss to even use. No other class in the game has that problem.

    Something has to give in terms of lock pvp. Devs need to figure out which direction they are comfortable with locks taking that actually works in pvp. Can't get away, can't fight back when pushed, and nerfing survival in almost every way is not fixing anything. Decide what we should be able to do and give us the toolkit to do it.
    If cant interrupt/counter chaos bolt, you deserve to get one shotted, buff its damage, now its a glorified incinerate
    Hey! Hey! I think i found a rare candy!
    Huh?
    Congratulations, your Slowpoke has evolved into Slowbro!

  13. #33
    I read somewhere that Blizzard loves when you compare one class ability to the class ability (or lack thereof) of another class while completely ignoring every other ability each class has in the big picture comparison of the two classes.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Mctriple View Post
    I read somewhere that Blizzard loves when you compare one class ability to the class ability (or lack thereof) of another class while completely ignoring every other ability each class has in the big picture comparison of the two classes.
    Blood Horror = Ice Ward
    Sac Pact/Twilight Ward = Ice Barrier
    Dark Bargain = Ice Block
    Incinerate+KJC = Scorch
    Burning Rush = Blazing Speed
    Spell Lock = Counterspell
    Devour Magic (observer) = Spellsteal
    Dark Intent = Arcane Brilliance

    Oh shit, mages seem to have a lot in common with warlocks. So yeah, the comparison applies. Warlocks are bastard mages at the moment. We need buffs, and mages shouldn't have every one of our tools as amplified versions.
    Destruction cataclysm arena video

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenexis View Post
    Blood Horror = Ice Ward
    Sac Pact/Twilight Ward = Ice Barrier
    Dark Bargain = Ice Block
    Incinerate+KJC = Scorch
    Burning Rush = Blazing Speed
    Spell Lock = Counterspell
    Devour Magic (observer) = Spellsteal
    Dark Intent = Arcane Brilliance

    Oh shit, mages seem to have a lot in common with warlocks. So yeah, the comparison applies. Warlocks are bastard mages at the moment. We need buffs, and mages shouldn't have every one of our tools as amplified versions.
    Well the super awesome advantage we have is some of those talents have huge damage penalties... to ourselves!

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenexis View Post
    Blood Horror = Ice Ward
    Sac Pact/Twilight Ward = Ice Barrier
    Dark Bargain = Ice Block
    Incinerate+KJC = Scorch
    Burning Rush = Blazing Speed
    Spell Lock = Counterspell
    Devour Magic (observer) = Spellsteal
    Dark Intent = Arcane Brilliance

    Oh shit, mages seem to have a lot in common with warlocks. So yeah, the comparison applies. Warlocks are bastard mages at the moment. We need buffs, and mages shouldn't have every one of our tools as amplified versions.
    That's not even remotely exhaustive, and a lot of the comparisons are not actually that close. Just because two skills give damage reduction or a move speed boost doesn't mean they are exactly equivalent, although some are. Beyond that, even if the two skills WERE functionally equivalent in a vacuum, there are a lot of other extenuating factors at play, such as having a pet (and which one?), class passives, spec passives, glyphs, talents, and even the 'tuning knobs' (cast time, mana cost, base damage, spellpower/AP coefficient) on -every- skill that the class has.

    Here are a few examples:

    Dark Bargain delays damage (only) and deals some of it back as a DoT. Ice block is true immunity to everything. Ice block also effectively stuns the mage for its duration, while Dark Bargain does not. They both have pros and cons. This is before considering that they belong to two wholly separate classes.

    Another:

    KJC versus Scorch. KJC allows a warlock to use their primary filler spell on the move. I'm not terribly current on mages, but it is my understanding that Scorch is a faster but lower-dps substitute spell that fire mages can use on the move. These aren't the same. They both attempt to solve the same problem, but they aren't the same, nor are they balanced at the same level of power comparatively. At the very least, one could argue that scorch is 'harder to use' than KJC because it requires changing modes from fireball to scorch, and does not allow a mage to move mid-cast if they are in a hurry without losing their fireball.

    So, at the end of the day, I'm sure the people modelling and testing PC survival and damage mitigation will come up with a solution where every class falls within their acceptable threshold of survival. It may be because they give every cloth class +60% armor, but that's pretty boring, and honestly would still benefit some cloth classes differently than others.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Zargul View Post
    stuff
    You're taking what he said WAY too literally.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Teye View Post
    You're taking what he said WAY too literally.
    This.

    Also, you just proved that every ability on the warlock side in these comparisons is worse than that of mages. Nowadays, warlocks and mages attempt to mitigate damage in more or less the same way, it's just that mages have more tools in PvP and that's a fact.
    Destruction cataclysm arena video

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenexis View Post
    This.

    Also, you just proved that every ability on the warlock side in these comparisons is worse than that of mages. Nowadays, warlocks and mages attempt to mitigate damage in more or less the same way, it's just that mages have more tools in PvP and that's a fact.
    No, if you want to make a broad generalization, please be prepared to back it up instead of claiming "lol I was only joking", then using your 'joke' to further argue your point. Also, better and worse are highly subjective. There are probably mages who wish they could continue to act for 8 seconds while being immune to damage and thus claim that Dark Bargain is better than Ice Block.

    There is a lot of homogenization in WoW classes currently, but they are all reasonably competitive and engaging. I have no belief that this will cease to be if warlocks don't get a 60% armor form.

    Also, in what way is scorch better than KJC?
    Last edited by Zargul; 2013-07-02 at 10:47 AM.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Zargul View Post
    There are probably mages who wish they could continue to act for 8 seconds while being immune to damage and thus claim that Dark Bargain is better than Ice Block.
    If there are, then they are bad. Ice Block effectively forces a team to switch targets (with the exception of priest teams). Dark Bargain changes the situation very little - you go from being trained to being trained while taking no damage to being trained with half of the previous train damage now afflicting you as a DoT.
    Those who you know as Warlocks are your Salvation through Destruction. You exist because we allow it, and you will end because we demand it.

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