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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post

    2) Good trinket - focused on single target damage. I assume it will be more effective for combat due to haste + combat mastery.
    If it procs poisons like TAiaJ it will be pretty nice for assassination as well.

  2. #22
    My best guess is 1 will be definite BiS and probably 2 for single target (basically vial 2.0) and 3 for cleave/add fights. I can't imagine 4 being spectacular unless it doesn't count autoattacks/poison procs, in which case it may be decent, and 5 just doesn't look too great at all, since mastery is at the bottom of the chain in 5.4.

  3. #23
    GG Trinket 1 and I'm not dropping my T15 4set. It's gonna be glorious

    Average cd on AR+SB will be 20ish sec

    Gives you a bit of time to work off the KS and maybe excessive energy you have build up. Most of the time you will be able to get into burst again if you pop KS right after previous burst. You can pretty much remove the energy bar from your ui, you won't need it.
    Last edited by Shinob1; 2013-06-28 at 09:24 AM.

  4. #24
    Yer the more I think about it the more that trinket can't go live. It's way way too powerful.

    My thoughts on this now? Lose the legendary cloak buff (looks tame) and give it the trinket 1 static. Then just give trinket 1 a new static. This way the trinkets are more balanced and the legendary feels legendary.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by theherecy View Post
    Yer the more I think about it the more that trinket can't go live. It's way way too powerful.

    My thoughts on this now? Lose the legendary cloak buff (looks tame) and give it the trinket 1 static. Then just give trinket 1 a new static. This way the trinkets are more balanced and the legendary feels legendary.
    It seems pretty powerful for rogues but okay to weak for pretty much everything else. Enhancement shamans, it doesn't affect fire ele, just earth ele and wolves, both of which are pretty weak. Cats, the only dps ability it affects is Tiger's Fury, which doesn't seem really big. Hunters, just rapid fire, and BW and black arrow. Monks, just energizing brew and fists of fury. In all honesty, I'd rather see a slight nerf to the time reduction than see the effect removed completely and replaced with a static; it's a pretty cool trinket design IMO. I guess we'll just have to see through testing/math how good it is.

    EDIT

    Doing some napkin math, in my current gear the equip effect is worth probably 5k dps, probably more if you account for t15 4 piece. Probably about on par, if not a little high, for most trinket equip effects, unless I'm mistaken.
    Last edited by whathump; 2013-06-28 at 01:25 PM.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Shinob1 View Post
    Average cd on AR+SB will be 20ish sec
    It's important to note for rogues who play combat that, if, as theorized, the trinket provides 39% increased cooldown recovery speed and not 39% cooldown reduction (CDR), then it will have a MUCH lowered effect. If your base CD were (being ridiculous - but it's easier to use) 600s (5m), without aid let's say you got 30 finishers in for 300s (5m) removed, which all occurred instantly for simplicity, and the CD takes 5m. If it were true CDR, you'd take that 600s and chop it down to 366s, which, if reduced by 300s, becomes 66s - and you'd see a proc every 66s! However, since the wording (and assumed use) is cooldown recovery, the base time remains 600s - 600s that will actually take 431s unaltered. When you take 30 finishers and toss those on, the time to cooldown refresh... is still 300s, which will take ~216 seconds.

    Obviously you wouldn't see an even # of finishers between the two examples because of time spent, etc., but what this shows is that increased cooldown recovery actually works AGAINST restless blades; every restless blades proc is worth less than it would be otherwise (28% less!), so that over 30 finishers, you're only reducing CDs by ~7.2 seconds per finisher, down from 10. This doesn't make either one bad, but the fact that they don't stack in the CDR fashion really, really matters for evaluating the value - in the example above, 216 is still WAY lower than 300, but it's also not 66.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Mugajak View Post
    -math and serious theorycrafting-
    Replying to the OP, the loss of baseline stats from Trinket 1 isn't a problem because of how much more often we'll be using our CDs. Even one extra use of each CD would make it worth it. The most exciting part of that trinket, in my mind, is the Smoke Bomb reduction; a CD of 110 seconds is going to make that trinket VERY powerful during progression, regardless of whether or not you can find the DPS use out of it.

    A random thought popped into my mind; wouldn't this trinket somewhat reduce the value of Haste? I mean, by the time we start getting to the middle of next tier, if Combat rogues keep gemming all-Haste, we might hit 17+ energy/sec. Either we're going to want to gem Agility (FINALLY!), or we're going to start seeing obnoxious CD usage? Here's my thoughts:

    To me, "Increases the cooldown recovery rate" implies "takes __ seconds off of the ability's CD" (as in CD duration); I'm sure we'll get some clarification before the patch is released, like we did with Rune of Re-Origination. Assuming it means "Takes __ seconds off of the base cooldown", then the effect is really simple. Here's some napkin math of that:

    Any 3-minute CD w/ Trinket 1: (Adrenaline Rush, Shadow Blades, Smoke Bomb)
    180 - [180 x .39] = 109.8 seconds

    Any 2-minute CD w/ Trinket 1: (Vendetta, Killing Spree/Vanish)
    120 - [120 x .39] = 73.2 seconds

    Any 60-second CD w/ Trinket 1: (Shadow Dance, Cloak of Shadows)
    60 - [60 x .39] = 36.6 seconds
    Carp - Illidan-US
    I wish I wish I was a fish.
    Rogue - Warlock

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Mugajak View Post
    It's important to note for rogues who play combat that, if, as theorized, the trinket provides 39% increased cooldown recovery speed and not 39% cooldown reduction (CDR), then it will have a MUCH lowered effect. If your base CD were (being ridiculous - but it's easier to use) 600s (5m), without aid let's say you got 30 finishers in for 300s (5m) removed, which all occurred instantly for simplicity, and the CD takes 5m. If it were true CDR, you'd take that 600s and chop it down to 366s, which, if reduced by 300s, becomes 66s - and you'd see a proc every 66s! However, since the wording (and assumed use) is cooldown recovery, the base time remains 600s - 600s that will actually take 431s unaltered. When you take 30 finishers and toss those on, the time to cooldown refresh... is still 300s, which will take ~216 seconds.

    Obviously you wouldn't see an even # of finishers between the two examples because of time spent, etc., but what this shows is that increased cooldown recovery actually works AGAINST restless blades; every restless blades proc is worth less than it would be otherwise (28% less!), so that over 30 finishers, you're only reducing CDs by ~7.2 seconds per finisher, down from 10. This doesn't make either one bad, but the fact that they don't stack in the CDR fashion really, really matters for evaluating the value - in the example above, 216 is still WAY lower than 300, but it's also not 66.
    I don't think that's necessarily true. assuming it's 1/1.39 times the base cooldown (which I'd be very surprised it's not), the only reason why it's more time between cds, is simply that 1/1.39 reduces the cd by less than 0.61. You can think of restless blades as the effective cd of ks/ar/sb is about half of the base cd. restless blades doesn't get reduced in value by simply making the cds shorter--it still roughly doubles the cooldown uptime, and assuming the cd recovery rate is divisive, that just means that the 39% uptime from the trinket and the ~100% additional uptime from RB will stack multiplicatively. AR/SB have a base cd of 180 seconds. without t15 4-set, you perform a damaging finisher roughly every 8 seconds, so every 8 seconds removes 18 seconds off the cd. It's basically a 125% cooldown recovery rate, which means a 125% cooldown uptime increase (instead of 15/180 for AR, which is 8.33% uptime, it goes to 18.75% uptime and a ~80 second cd). Just take those uptimes and multiply them by 1.39 and you get the new uptime (0.1875 * 1.39 = 26% uptime, or an effective AR/SB cd of 57 seconds---which is actually better than the current T15 4-set uptime (and that's WITHOUT T15 4-set). T15 4-set would bring AR/SB effective cd to about 45 seconds, and an uptime on AR of about 32-33%. That's pretty huge. AR and SB together would have ~20% uptime, so that's 20% of the time at a 0.5sec GCD, so you basically have an additional 20% globals, or 72 globals per minute. The APM is going to go off the deep end and it won't do good things for the spec's gameplay.
    Last edited by shadowboy; 2013-06-28 at 07:16 PM.

  9. #29
    So, let me get this straight, Mugajak.

    If it's straight CDR, Restless Blades will still take off 2s/CP (10s/5CP); everything remains the same.

    If it's recovery rate (1s real time = 1.39s off the CD), its value relative to just waiting will decrease (10s off the CD = 7.2s real time).

    Have you considered a second scenario with recovery rate where it also affects RB and turns it into 2.78s/CP (13.9s/5CP), thus increasing the effect of RB, but maintaining its real time reduction (13.9s off the CD = 10s real time).

    I guess this just depends on how the code actually counts off CDs, how the trinket actually modifies that, and how RB interacts with both.

  10. #30
    @shadow/Squirl

    shadow - it's possible they'll just treat 39% ICDR as 28% CDR as well, that'd be a lot more gentle, or as Squirl suggested, for this 1 particular ability they might put in a secondary passive - increasing the effect of RB enough to compensate, if for some reason they mechanically introduce ICDR instead of CDR.

    Personally I think reducing everything's CD to 1/1.39 of normal is a lot easier but I'm not taking bets on implementation yet, and someone is going to start trying to throw real numbers at this - and we need a full picture of the possibilities. I'm not calling it weak! And I'm avoiding combat at all costs if it goes live either way.

    Carp - it might reduce the value of haste enough to see something else get love, which would at least be a welcome change of pace. If it ended up at agi > haste for gemming, we'd almost see easier cross-spec gemming... except that combat will still be using this tier's tier. ><

  11. #31
    These trinkets are still confusing and silly. Two of them are like "your next X hits do more damage" which clearly helps non-rogues way more than rogues. They'll have to treat it as cooldown reduction to the base- otherwise you'll mouse over a cooldown and see 300 seconds remaining, and then 20 seconds later see like 273 seconds remaining, or something. If your UI is counting more than one second per second, go home WoW, you're drunk!

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    These trinkets are still confusing and silly. Two of them are like "your next X hits do more damage" which clearly helps non-rogues way more than rogues. They'll have to treat it as cooldown reduction to the base- otherwise you'll mouse over a cooldown and see 300 seconds remaining, and then 20 seconds later see like 273 seconds remaining, or something. If your UI is counting more than one second per second, go home WoW, you're drunk!
    Think about it from blizzard's standpoint. They couldn't care less if your addons mess up.

  13. #33
    Oh, the addons will have it correct. It'll be the base UI that's broken.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    Oh, the addons will have it correct. It'll be the base UI that's broken.
    This.

    And I really hope they just do 1/1.39 and call it a day. Having to do all of that math that Mugajak used earlier whenever I want to calculate how much real reduction something is doing is going to be a pain.
    Carp - Illidan-US
    I wish I wish I was a fish.
    Rogue - Warlock

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Carp The Fish View Post
    And I really hope they just do 1/1.39 and call it a day. Having to do all of that math that Mugajak used earlier whenever I want to calculate how much real reduction something is doing is going to be a pain.
    No joke for combat, and for everyone if they didn't update the UI properly to count down CDs and give the CD rather than the time until it WILL come off cooldown. Having to use those as different terms is just bad. Although most of the Blizzard UI wouldn't have to change, now that I think about it. It only gives you numbers if you scroll over the tooltip; otherwise you're just greeted with the vague circular countdown, aren't you?

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Mugajak View Post
    No joke for combat, and for everyone if they didn't update the UI properly to count down CDs and give the CD rather than the time until it WILL come off cooldown. Having to use those as different terms is just bad. Although most of the Blizzard UI wouldn't have to change, now that I think about it. It only gives you numbers if you scroll over the tooltip; otherwise you're just greeted with the vague circular countdown, aren't you?
    Yes. One of the first addons I used was omnicc which stuck some numbers over the spells. When will blizzard learn ^^

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Mugajak View Post
    No joke for combat, and for everyone if they didn't update the UI properly to count down CDs and give the CD rather than the time until it WILL come off cooldown. Having to use those as different terms is just bad. Although most of the Blizzard UI wouldn't have to change, now that I think about it. It only gives you numbers if you scroll over the tooltip; otherwise you're just greeted with the vague circular countdown, aren't you?
    Right, but the idea of a 2 minute cooldown coming back in 1 minute 30 seconds is patently ludicrous. That's the whole reason there's a clock there, to tell me the time. If the clock is wrong, that's a UI problem, not an interesting time paradox.


    Currently, you don't see the numbers unless you mouse over, but if you don't have an addon that shows the real number you should consider it- it's very useful for when something is at 13 seconds. Instead of an icon that looks like it is available (because the tiny pie sliver is almost invisible) you get a very accurate count of when you'll be able to do it again. My favorite experience of this was in pvp- I had a couple combo points on a stunned target as combat, and six seconds remaining on AR/Blades. I pressed rupture to clear the timer then went to town. That would have been a harder play without the addon by a mile.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    Currently, you don't see the numbers unless you mouse over, but if you don't have an addon that shows the real number you should consider it- it's very useful for when something is at 13 seconds. Instead of an icon that looks like it is available (because the tiny pie sliver is almost invisible) you get a very accurate count of when you'll be able to do it again.
    Oh, absolutely. Like theherecy, OmniCC was one of my first addons, and I have a hard time imagining playing without it. I was extreeemely excited about other count-down options that work at a glance, like Coolline Cooldowns, and more recently RainbowProcs- which was FANTASTIC for all of 1 tier before they made everything RPPM. Seeing how all of your trinkets and other timed effects with ICDs will line up, right over Coolline... was beautiful.

    What I meant, though, was that the absolutely useless countdown-circle of the default UI would still work just fine! It'd just move more quickly, but since it doesn't use numbers it wouldn't be broken -.-

    It would, however, break any system based on seconds remaining on the CD, which is, you know, what we care about. If what I fear comes to pass, though, you don't need to seriously complicate your system for combat - I'm sure every addon would track time remaining on the cooldown, and RB, if not buffed due to the horrible implementation, would just remove 7.2s from the CD instead of 10s. You'd have to adjust, sure, but in the overarching stream of things it wouldn't break you. No idea how much work that would make for addon-writers though.

  19. #39
    The first trinket seems really OP for PvE and PvP mostly(reduced CD for Cloak of Shadows? Shadow Dance? Vanish? Shadow Blades?).

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Mugajak View Post
    Oh, absolutely. Like theherecy, OmniCC was one of my first addons, and I have a hard time imagining playing without it. I was extreeemely excited about other count-down options that work at a glance, like Coolline Cooldowns, and more recently RainbowProcs- which was FANTASTIC for all of 1 tier before they made everything RPPM. Seeing how all of your trinkets and other timed effects with ICDs will line up, right over Coolline... was beautiful.

    What I meant, though, was that the absolutely useless countdown-circle of the default UI would still work just fine! It'd just move more quickly, but since it doesn't use numbers it wouldn't be broken -.-

    It would, however, break any system based on seconds remaining on the CD, which is, you know, what we care about. If what I fear comes to pass, though, you don't need to seriously complicate your system for combat - I'm sure every addon would track time remaining on the cooldown, and RB, if not buffed due to the horrible implementation, would just remove 7.2s from the CD instead of 10s. You'd have to adjust, sure, but in the overarching stream of things it wouldn't break you. No idea how much work that would make for addon-writers though.
    OmniCC specifially doesn't do anything more than dispalying a time text over the cooldown frame - if you ahve other addons which use the same frame for durations like sFilter, OmniCC will get automatically the text over them too.

    I don't think it will broke, just because it does make the calculation over the cooldown frame. Times are calculated dynamically - it egisters correctly the Serrated Blades CD reduction, so i don't see any problem on it working in 5.4.

    EDIT: otheriwose i'll have to work over it since it's built into my UI :P
    Last edited by Coldkil; 2013-07-01 at 06:59 AM.

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