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  1. #81
    High Overlord flimflop's Avatar
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    Just to clarify, I was referring Assassination in the previous post. More changes are likely to determine whether combat > assassination or not.

  2. #82
    I find it unlikely that Combat will actually use T16 4pc unless it's drastically changed. T15 4pc is just too good and T16 4pc depends on using KSp on CD for full effectiveness, which will kill you on many fights in SoO (you still have to be smart with it and delay often even with the single target change). This is compounded by the fact that SB > KSp regardless of bonuses and the CDR trinket affects both equally.

    T15 4pc is ~12k
    T16 4pc is ~3k

    (source; not sure how up to date it is)

    9k ep seems like a lot to make up in stats on 4 items in 31 ilvls (535 to 566). I suppose we'll see once someone does the math though.


    As far as Assassination and Flimflop's original question, the t16 2pc is pretty damn good and the 4pc is better than it looks. That, coupled with the ilvl increase, will probably make it worth going 2pc/2pc then t16 4pc as items drop; not waiting for the full 4pc then going from 4pc to 4pc. I'd still use ShC once the patch drops and gear starts coming in to be sure though.

    As far as how the CDR trinket affects the set EP, it's just the set bonus EP multiplied by the CDR. Assuming the numbers in the above source are correct and the normal mode trinket (39% increased recovery rate; ~29% CDR, right?), each set's EP with the CDR trinket should just be 29% higher? This makes it not really relevant since both sets are affected equally and their value is so close to begin with. 2pc/2pc will likely still be better than t15 4pc even with the CDR trinket factored in, if that's what you're asking.

    Maybe I'm misunderstanding the question or the math. Feel free to correct me; I'm in deeper water than I'm comfortable with here.

  3. #83
    Well, but assuming you are right (and I think you are as 29% shorter cooldown should mean 29% more usage assuming unlimited fight duration), that makes the EP with trinket ~15.5k versus ~3.8 so instead of a 9k EP difference between the two, it is a 11.7k difference between the two. That extra 2.7k goes a really long way towards countering the stat difference from the item levels. So I don't think its fair to say the trinket isn't really relevant.

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Sesshou View Post
    Well, but assuming you are right (and I think you are as 29% shorter cooldown should mean 29% more usage assuming unlimited fight duration), that makes the EP with trinket ~15.5k versus ~3.8 so instead of a 9k EP difference between the two, it is a 11.7k difference between the two. That extra 2.7k goes a really long way towards countering the stat difference from the item levels. So I don't think its fair to say the trinket isn't really relevant.
    Quote Originally Posted by Squirl View Post
    As far as how the CDR trinket affects the set EP, it's just the set bonus EP multiplied by the CDR. Assuming the numbers in the above source are correct and the normal mode trinket (39% increased recovery rate; ~29% CDR, right?), each set's EP with the CDR trinket should just be 29% higher? This makes it not really relevant since both sets are affected equally and their value is so close to begin with. 2pc/2pc will likely still be better than t15 4pc even with the CDR trinket factored in, if that's what you're asking.
    This was in regards to Assassination (this is the part I assume you're referencing).

    I agree the CDR trinket is a bigger deal for comparing combat tier sets and will have a meaningful impact in their comparison:

    Quote Originally Posted by Squirl View Post
    This is compounded by the fact that SB > KSp regardless of bonuses and the CDR trinket affects both equally.

  5. #85
    I'm suprised noone has commented on what effects the first trinket will have on Sub PVE. I'm thinking this trinket combined with the 4pc bonus would be insane and possibly enough to put sub back on the map. Even if you didn't have a need for using shadow dance as it comes off of CD, having it available more often could only lead to more find weakness uptime. Perhaps I'm just bieng far to hopefull that Sub will see a resurgence. Help me trinket one, you're my only hope.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Sesshou View Post
    Well, but assuming you are right (and I think you are as 29% shorter cooldown should mean 29% more usage assuming unlimited fight duration), that makes the EP with trinket ~15.5k versus ~3.8 so instead of a 9k EP difference between the two, it is a 11.7k difference between the two. That extra 2.7k goes a really long way towards countering the stat difference from the item levels. So I don't think its fair to say the trinket isn't really relevant.
    29% cd reduction means 39% more usage. 39% recovery rate means 39% more uptime. This is why they chose 1 / (1+x) instead of (1-x) for the cd modification factor.

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by mongoose6 View Post
    I'm suprised noone has commented on what effects the first trinket will have on Sub PVE. I'm thinking this trinket combined with the 4pc bonus would be insane and possibly enough to put sub back on the map. Even if you didn't have a need for using shadow dance as it comes off of CD, having it available more often could only lead to more find weakness uptime. Perhaps I'm just bieng far to hopefull that Sub will see a resurgence. Help me trinket one, you're my only hope.
    This *was* being looked at somewhere although I can't find the posts atm. At the last iteration of checking (this was a while ago), it would nearly double FW uptime, but that might not quite make sub catch up.

    Edit: found at least one reference: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...5#post21691625 - but I think we're looking at MORE positional issues than this tier, not fewer. On the same subject: http://roguechat.wordpress.com/2013/...-requirements/
    Last edited by Kael; 2013-07-27 at 12:45 AM.

  8. #88
    So, any specifics on the haste/multistrike trinket?

    I'd be interested on whether it procs poisons, as well as whether it procs on poisons.

  9. #89
    Anything can proc the multistrike, even DoTs. I doubt it can proc off itself though (for obvious reason). It doesn't proc poisons since it's not a weapon strike.

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Psychowolf View Post
    Anything can proc the multistrike, even DoTs. I doubt it can proc off itself though (for obvious reason). It doesn't proc poisons since it's not a weapon strike.
    Ugh, not what I wanted to hear. Would have much rather it procced off of melee attacks and acted like a melee attack, similar to Tiny Abomination in a Jar.

  11. #91
    Keyboard Turner Snowfish's Avatar
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    I tested the Multistrike trinket and its just bad. ~2% of damage as assa and ~2.7% as combat. didnt try sub.

    looking at it u can get a maximum of 3.3% of damage done out of it (9.9% procc chance and your damage is 1/3 of original damage dealt). Our poisons wont procc it so rogue damage is reduced again. given only 1959 haste as static its not worth using it.

    best trinkets atm seem to be the cooldown trinket and the one proccing mastery. both have the same ICD of 105 seconds and do synergize greatly.
    Last edited by Snowfish; 2013-07-28 at 01:13 PM.

  12. #92
    High Overlord flimflop's Avatar
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    There's been some interesting Agility trinket updates on the newest PTR build. Bear in mind this info is just pulled from buff and item tooltips as of this post.

    1. Ticking Ebon Detonator
    +1959 Mastery (3.27 at L90)
    Equip: Your melee and ranged attacks have a chance to grant you [1069 * 20] Agility for 20 sec. Every 1 sec this effect decrements by 1069 Agility. (Approx 0.73 procs per minute)

    2. Haromm's Talisman
    +1959 Haste (4.61% at L90)
    Equip: Your attacks have a 19.6% chance to trigger Multistrike, which deals instant additional damage to your target equal to 1/3 of the original damage dealt.

    3. Seal of Rampage
    +1959 Critical Strike (3.27% at L90)
    Equip: Your attacks have a 4.35% chance to Cleave, dealing the same damage to all other nearby targets.


    Effectively these are pretty huge buffs for all 3 trinkets. Not surprisingly they removed the "each hit reduces agi proc by x" on the Ticking Ebon Detonator, as before it was completely broken for most classes. Also adding an additional 10% proc chance to Haromm's Talisman and an extra 2.74% to Seal of Rampage was fairly predictable.

    The other trinkets are unchanged at this point, but the "CD trinket" is now named Assurance of Consequence.

    It will be interesting to see how they now rank up against each other in terms of EP value.
    Last edited by flimflop; 2013-07-30 at 12:33 AM.

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by flimflop View Post
    1. Ticking Ebon Detonator
    +1959 Mastery (3.27 at L90)
    Equip: Your melee and ranged attacks have a chance to grant you [1069 * 20] Agility for 20 sec. Every 1 sec this effect decrements by 1069 Agility. (Approx 0.73 procs per minute)
    Well, that certainly makes it actually worth something if it no longer reduces with each hit.

  14. #94
    With the nerf to RPPM on openers in 5.4, I think dropping 4pc T15 and using things like Haromm's Talisman (multistrike trinket) will be very easy decisions to make.

  15. #95
    I'm not sure, but I think the speed buff you get in Shrine accidentally procs Ticking Ebon Detonator... not too meaningful but interesting thing I noticed.

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Maelstrom51 View Post
    With the nerf to RPPM on openers in 5.4, I think dropping 4pc T15 and using things like Haromm's Talisman (multistrike trinket) will be very easy decisions to make.
    Um, why? What does the rppm change have to do with the t15 4pc? Though it will make ICD or flat rate trinkets more appealing. Guaranteed stacking with cooldowns on the pull is pretty huge and the difference between getting a proc instantly with your cds or 20 seconds later without them is really noticeable.

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by Sesshou View Post
    Guaranteed stacking with cooldowns on the pull is pretty huge and the difference between getting a proc instantly with your cds or 20 seconds later without them is really noticeable.
    Its exactly that. A lot of the power of our current four set comes from stacking it with trinket procs. It will be quite a drop with either delaying our cooldowns to match trinket procs ( note: both trinkets are not guaranteed to proc together), or to blow them early and not benefit as much from the procss on the opener.

  18. #98
    With as much haste as we have and assuming haste increases the ppm as intended, I'm sure we'll be looking at near 100% uptime of trinket procs on pull for 2min/proc trinkets.

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Psychowolf View Post
    With as much haste as we have and assuming haste increases the ppm as intended, I'm sure we'll be looking at near 100% uptime of trinket procs on pull for 2min/proc trinkets.
    Renataki's and Bad Juju don't get much of a bonus proc chance on the pull with the new change. Assuming 30% haste rating and bloodlust/heroism up, Renataki's is looking at a mere 20% increased proc chance. Bad Juju is even worse off.

  20. #100
    High Overlord flimflop's Avatar
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    So Assurance of Consequence (Heroic Warforged) is listed with a 47% increased CD recovery rate. This would drop Vendetta to a 63.6 sec CD and SB to somewhere ~1.5min. Therefore giving almost 50% uptime on Vendetta. That is... somewhat incredible.

    ptr.wowdb.com/items/105472-assurance-of-consequence

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