Coy mathis Trial

[chaotus]

It does make sense.

It makes terrifying sense.

Because this shows just how pervasive a culture can be. And how much of an effect culture has on sexuality, even at a very young age, perhaps from before one can remember anything. Terrifying, for anyone willing to think about it.

No because the child did not pick the pink blanket because it was more feminine, they picked it because it was the same one his other two siblings use and he doesn't want to be different. Why one earth would anyone assume that the child knows it's a symbol of being a girl in his household and he is trying to show that he is female by wrapping himself in adorable pink fabric. It's reaching so far they grabbed a Chinese man's hand. If they all got wrapped in blue blankets he would have grabbed a blue blanket also. Fk, if they had rainbow blankets he would have grabbed a rainbow blanket. Does that mean he is a supporter of the LGBT at 5 months old? Of course not, that's stupid.

[smelltheglove]

this is insanity imo. the right answer to my mind would be "live your life for a few more years kid, and then figure it out when sexuality actually holds some kind of meaning for you. still feel you should be a girl at that point fine, but a decision now is meaningless and irrelevant"

[Underverse]

No because the child did not pick the pink blanket because it was more feminine, they picked it because it was the same one his other two siblings use and he doesn't want to be different. Why one earth would anyone assume that the child knows it's a symbol of being a girl in his household and he is trying to show that he is female by wrapping himself in adorable pink fabric. It's reaching so far they grabbed a Chinese man's hand. If they all got wrapped in blue blankets he would have grabbed a blue blanket also. Fk, if they had rainbow blankets he would have grabbed a rainbow blanket. Does that mean he is a supporter of the LGBT at 5 months old? Of course not, that's stupid.

I was more referring to:

"She refused to leave the house if she had to wear boy clothes."

[chaotus]

I was more referring to:

"She refused to leave the house if she had to wear boy clothes."

It doesn't exist in a vacuum though is what I'm stating. If the parents are latching on to these rather horrible indications that their child is a girl then how credible can they be for anything else? Maybe the "boy" clothes they got him were itchy, or rough or tight or any other number of reasons that he wouldn't want them on. When was the last time you saw a baby that liked anything for any normal sane reason like color, texture or social trope? Instead they jump immediately to, he must not like these "boy" cloths so he must be a girl instead... the leap in logic is crazy. There are a million other more sound possibilities available there before you make that jump.

[Underverse]

It doesn't exist in a vacuum though is what I'm stating. If the parents are latching on to these rather horrible indications that their child is a girl then how credible can they be for anything else? Maybe the "boy" clothes they got him were itchy, or rough or tight or any other number of reasons that he wouldn't want them on. When was the last time you saw a baby that liked anything for any normal sane reason like color, texture or social trope? Instead they jump immediately to, he must not like these "boy" cloths so he must be a girl instead... the leap in logic is crazy. There are a million other more sound possibilities available there before you make that jump.

Yes, maybe this, maybe that.

But why did she not like dinosaurs? Why do most boys like dinosaurs? Why does a child choose anything over another thing?

As you yourself have said, probably for cultural reasons. They are taught what to do, what is safe, what to like, etc.

I agree though that the parents are making the situation into just that

[chaotus]

Yes, maybe this, maybe that.

But why did she not like dinosaurs? Why do most boys like dinosaurs? Why does a child choose anything over another thing?

As you yourself have said, probably for cultural reasons. They are taught what to do, what is safe, what to like, etc.

I agree though that the parents are making the situation into just that

He probably didn't like the dinosaurs because he didn't like the dinosaurs. Tons of males grow up every year not liking dinosaurs, does that mean they might be female mentally. Of course not that jump in logic would be insane.

I don't agree with the idea that he knew the dinosaur was inherently a boy or girl toy, so that's why he didn't want to play with it. He didn't want to play with it because he wanted to play with the same thing his sister's had. Not because it was female or male, but because he wanted to be part of the pack/tribe.

I think the situation here is very different from normal because parents generally give gender appropriate toys from their viewpoint to the kids. In this case you had three kids, 2 girls and 1 boy that were given separate toys that were gender appropriate form the parent's viewpoint. At that young age the boy doesn't want to be singled out as different so he obviously just plays with the same things his sisters have. It's not choice on gender it's choice on equality. I propose that if they had placed rainbow blocks on the ground for the kids they would have all played with the blocks and grown up loving blocks and probably not be LBGT advocates at the age of 5.

[Laize]

I don't believe that anyone at age 6 knows the difference between being a boy and a girl. There's really very little physical differentiation at those ages, secondary sex characteristics haven't begun to develop, and really most little boys and girls could pass for the other sex with a minor change of clothes and hairstyle.

It's never about physical differentiation. At least not externally. It's been shown many times that transgenders, quite literally, have the wrong body for their brains.

I forget what part of the brain specifically is so different that makes it obvious, but FTMs have male brains in female bodies and MTFs have female brains in male bodies.

The distinction is very real and, by all accounts, obvious to the individual from their first memories.

EDIT: Found it. The corpus callosum!

---------- Post added 2013-06-28 at 03:54 PM ----------

It would seem Coy, identified themselves as female before school started, and it was not something the parents pushed upon Coy.

Colors are meaningless in terms of gender differentiation. The colors for boys and girls used to be reversed, with pink being for boys and blue being for girls. Why was pink for boys? Well what color does a white flag with blood spatter on it appear to be?

---------- Post added 2013-06-28 at 03:57 PM ----------

It the child XXY? Or some other interesting combination?

If not, this is silly. Sad what culture does to malleable minds. Then, we've all grown up in the same.

Just to point this out... XXY is a form of trisomy. Most fetuses with trisomy are miscarried and the ones that survive have what we call Down's Syndrome.

[Underverse]

He probably didn't like the dinosaurs because he didn't like the dinosaurs. Tons of males grow up every year not liking dinosaurs, does that mean they might be female mentally. Of course not that jump in logic would be insane.

I don't agree with the idea that he knew the dinosaur was inherently a boy or girl toy, so that's why he didn't want to play with it. He didn't want to play with it because he wanted to play with the same thing his sister's had. Not because it was female or male, but because he wanted to be part of the pack/tribe.

I think we're agreeing

My point is that dinosaurs are not in fact innately boy or girl toys - these are cultural constructs. My second point is that Coy correlated liking certain things to a certain gender identity, or that the parents did it for him - as in, Coy liked certain things, so the parents treated him as more of a female persona, which led him into a positive feedback loop of applying himself to a female identity on the basis of these cultural constructs.

As for being 'part of the pack', I think that is a major driving factor. But when coupled with our cultural gender identities, it can lead to what I describe in the above paragraph.

---------- Post added 2013-06-28 at 12:04 PM ----------

It's never about physical differentiation. At least not externally. It's been shown many times that transgenders, quite literally, have the wrong body for their brains.

I forget what part of the brain specifically is so different that makes it obvious, but FTMs have male brains in female bodies and MTFs have female brains in male bodies.

The distinction is very real and, by all accounts, obvious to the individual from their first memories.

EDIT: Found it. The corpus callosum!

Brain structure changes based on environmental factors. So the question is - are these people born with these exact brains? Can it be predicted in the womb? If not, then it's more likely to be a cultural effect.

If so, only then can one approach the question of gender identity in general. I for one am not convinced that people are 'born into the wrong body', but I'm willing to consider it given some evidence.

[Taurenburger]

idk according to wiki it can, though not in everyone

Well, ofcourse people with Klinefelter can feel female, but so can normal (XY) men. Klinefelter people feel more often female than XY-persons, but still the multitude feels male.

this is insanity imo. the right answer to my mind would be "live your life for a few more years kid, and then figure it out when sexuality actually holds some kind of meaning for you. still feel you should be a girl at that point fine, but a decision now is meaningless and irrelevant"

This is exactly what I'm thinking. Whether that's the right thing to do or not I can't say.

Just to point this out... XXY is a form of trisomy. Most fetuses with trisomy are miscarried and the ones that survive have what we call Down's Syndrome.

I do believe that is not the case with sex-chromosomes. XXY and XO people are able to live just fine, though cannot procreate afaik. Down's Syndrome and the like are failures in seperating non-sex chromatides.