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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Memnarch View Post
    Without wanting to seem hostile, this how RPGs worked over the years: Rogues and the like crit more often but weaker, warriors and the like crit less often but stronger. It is easier to hit a vital spot with a precise weapon as a dagger. But it hurts much more if you manage to hit it with a greatsword.
    I know my name is angryplateguy, but I'm honestly not that angry. I was just pointing out that, sure agility may not give you 100% dodge like back in BC with your double ZA daggers slotted with epic agility gems, where you can feel free to tank all raid bosses as a rogue, but it still gives you crit. It has since vanilla, crit and dodge.

    Strength only recently, what back in cata right-?-, started giving parry. It's a decent amount, but it really feels more for the tanks than for pvp. If strength suddenly gave you 30% parry for having 16k, there would be an imbalance. Considering you don't get much more parry than a rogue gets dodge, and you ALSO do not get crit -or lets say for arguments sake haste or mastery or something ridiculous- it's not really a problem.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by angryplateguy View Post
    I know my name is angryplateguy, but I'm honestly not that angry. I was just pointing out that, sure agility may not give you 100% dodge like back in BC with your double ZA daggers slotted with epic agility gems, where you can feel free to tank all raid bosses as a rogue, but it still gives you crit. It has since vanilla, crit and dodge.

    Strength only recently, what back in cata right-?-, started giving parry. It's a decent amount, but it really feels more for the tanks than for pvp. If strength suddenly gave you 30% parry for having 16k, there would be an imbalance. Considering you don't get much more parry than a rogue gets dodge, and you ALSO do not get crit -or lets say for arguments sake haste or mastery or something ridiculous- it's not really a problem.
    Don't many skills however have increased critical chance by themselves? I mean like Overpower. In the end I don't see much of a difference between the damage of a warrior and a rogue. Maybe the lack of crit is balanced by more overall damage from the plate class. Don't have numbers in front of me, but I just want to say that this extra crit isn't such a big deal.

    Life is a series of choices between bad and worse.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by angryplateguy View Post
    You said bad game or whatever, I was pointing out that AGILITY servers multiple secondary stats, not just one. I'd gladly give up an extra couple % of parry, you eek out a nice 7-8% of crit! I mean, that's really good.
    We could go back to the days of Warriors and Paladins stacking Agility so that they would crit.. because in the olden days there was no such thing as Critical Strike rating.

  4. #24
    Angryplateguy: arguing that agi gives rogues crit and as such plate should get more parry from str is a weak argument.

    There's a big, BIG difference between crit and parry. One is an offensive benefit, the other is defensive. Apples to oranges my friend, you don't compare them. By your logic agility classes should do more damage than plate but they don't. Nor should they.

    Light armor classes generally should have other damage mitigation mechanics--namely avoidance (clothies keep their opponent at bay, agile melee classes such as rogues, monks, and druids fully avoid attacks while up close).

    That's the way it SHOULD work--but it doesn't. The str to parry conversion is a QoL improvement for tanks, and a welcome one at that, but it does tip the defensive balance considerably in favor towards plate.

    My level 80 retribution paladin at 291 item level has over 65% parry and in herald of the titans gear (ilevel 222 equipped) is over 50%. My rogue at NO amount of gear has EVER even come close to that. Even post-4.0 with the dodge talent at 80 and with 25 man ICC gear his dodge was only about 45% (granted, he also did not have MoP level LW bracer/leg enchants).
    Last edited by shadowboy; 2013-06-29 at 05:27 AM.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by shadowboy View Post
    That's the way it SHOULD work--but it doesn't.
    I am pretty sure that there are "abilities" that make sure it is still on a level where you can deal with having a couple percent less passive avoidance.
    Also no one really gives a crap about inflated ratings at low levels.

  6. #26
    If that's all you chose to address, you completely missed the point.

    My point is that angryplateguy is making a straw man argument, and his logic is, in fact, quite flawed.
    Last edited by shadowboy; 2013-06-29 at 05:35 AM.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by shadowboy View Post
    Angryplateguy: arguing that agi gives rogues crit and as such plate should get more parry from str is a weak argument.

    There's a big, BIG difference between crit and parry. One is an offensive benefit, the other is defensive. Apples to oranges my friend, you don't compare them. By your logic agility classes should do more damage than plate but they don't. Nor should they.

    Light armor classes generally should have other damage mitigation mechanics--namely avoidance (clothies keep their opponent at bay, agile melee classes such as rogues, monks, and druids fully avoid attacks while up close).

    That's the way it SHOULD work--but it doesn't. The str to parry conversion is a QoL improvement for tanks, and a welcome one at that, but it does tip the defensive balance considerably in favor towards plate.

    My level 80 retribution paladin at 291 item level has over 65% parry and in herald of the titans gear (ilevel 222 equipped) is over 50%. My rogue at NO amount of gear has EVER even come close to that. Even post-4.0 with the dodge talent at 80 and with 25 man ICC gear his dodge was only about 45% (granted, he also did not have MoP level LW bracer/leg enchants).
    Did you forget that you ALSO get dodge? You're actually arguing slightly more parry from your major stat outweighs the benefits of getting all of that free crit as well as free dodge?

    I mean, for example my DK has 22k strength with his crystal of insanity, which is 500 all stats. He has 25% parry, and around 17% crit, with 7.2k crit rating. Reckful has far less crit rating, but nearly 5% more crit. I would give up all 25% of that parry for 5% crit as a dps. Just saying. Also keep in mind he has nearly 6k less agility than I have strength.
    Last edited by angryplateguy; 2013-06-29 at 05:43 AM. Reason: added rating to make it make a little more sense.

  8. #28
    The Patient Bryrida's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quetzl View Post
    The modern WoW is not a reflection of realistic fantasy (or an attempt thereof). It's a math equation poorly disguised by graphics.
    Unfortunately that's true, I wish the game mechanics reflected realistic fantasy more.

  9. #29
    You should take burst of speed.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by angryplateguy View Post
    Did you forget that you ALSO get dodge? You're actually arguing slightly more parry from your major stat outweighs the benefits of getting all of that free crit as well as free dodge?

    I mean, for example my DK has 22k strength with his crystal of insanity, which is 500 all stats. He has 25% parry, and around 17% crit, with 7.2k crit rating. Reckful has far less crit rating, but nearly 5% more crit. I would give up all 25% of that parry for 5% crit as a dps. Just saying. Also keep in mind he has nearly 6k less agility than I have strength.
    You again missed the point. The crit doesn't matter. The crit is 100%, completely, and UTTERLY irrelevent in the discussion at hand. It DOES NOT MATTER. This isn't a discussion of damage or offense, it's a discussion of defense. You are using crit as a straw man argument.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by achromatickang View Post
    It sort of annoys me that I'm playing this agile class who wears light weight armor, yet I frequently get outrun by Paladins and Death Knights, and don't even have a fraction of the mobility a Plate wearing warrior has.

    I used to ignore this completely because Ghostcrawler had always said that plate versus leather isn't really relevant in modern WoW.

    But when Find Weakness was nerfed against plate wearers I really had to ask myself what the trade off was? Why should my monk or feral druid get hit harder than my death knight if their damage avoidance isn't any higher?
    If you are a rogue/druid/monk and are being outrun by a paladin or dk, you are doing it wrong

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Raugnaut View Post
    A) You actually don't get hit much harder then dps plate toons- you take around 15% more damage then a plate dps.
    15% is huge in PVP. When you consider that plate automatically get hit for 15% less against Rogue burst, and Rogues get hit about 15% harder, the gap is closer to a 30% (+15%/-15%) difference. Why should Rogues get hit more often, and harder if both classes have the same HP. In current WoW Rogues have less avoidance and less mitigation and it seems fairly backwards.


    Quote Originally Posted by Raugnaut View Post
    B) As a rogue, you have higher baseline avoidance- about 7% more dodge/parry then your plate counterpart's dodge/parry. While armor will help you survive a bit longer during a stun, dodging that one colossal smash could save you.
    No way. My Death Knight's parry is notably higher than my Rogue's dodge, not to mention the plate damage reduction, and the fact that he can sit in blood presence at the same time. When I think of a Rogue I think of Nightcrawler from the X-men. Someone who should be really hard to hit, but when he gets hit it really hurts. When I think of a Warrior I think of Juggernaut. Someone who isn't afraid to get hit because it barely phases them. Currently plate classes are both harder to hit, and are better suited to take a hit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raugnaut View Post
    C) A portion of your damage ignores armor (Bleeds, Poisons). Granted, as sub, this isnt a large portion, but its a portion nonetheless.
    And warrior bleeds, death knight diseases, and paladin DoT's don't do the same?

    Quote Originally Posted by Raugnaut View Post
    D) How are you getting outran by paladins/DKs? They may have a shorter CD on their sprint, but Sprint itself can have a higher speed (100% potential).
    You're completely overlooking Pursuit of Justice and Death's Advance, which was the actual motivator for this thread. So many times I've thought I've finally caught up to either of these two classes only to find myself laughed at as they both easily left me in the dust.
    Last edited by achromatickang; 2013-06-29 at 06:36 AM.

  13. #33
    I'd love for Leather wearers to be faster and have more avoidance than Plate wearers by default. In return, arrows, daggers, punches, and kicks can no longer deal damage to anyone wearing Plate.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by angryplateguy View Post
    The entire thread friend, the entire thread.

    You're arguing that plate should give less avoidance, I guess. But the thing is, agility gives three benefits. AP Crit and dodge. strength is just ap and parry. So like I said, deal with it.
    The irony being that every single plate class in the entire game deals notably more damage in PVP than any leather wearing class.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by angryplateguy View Post
    Another thing to remember, is you cannot parry attacks made from behind, you can dodge them. So, consider that for a moment.
    What game are you playing? I play World of Warcraft, and in World of Warcraft, players can't dodge attacks from behind.

    And regarding the issue at hand from the OP, it comes to this.

    Rogues have iconically been a glass cannon class. High burst, high control, but very fragile (low survivability). The game has evolved to strip away much of the control and burst of the class (not arguing that this is good or bad, just stating the way it is) but has not compensated the other half of the "glass cannon" ideaology (i.e., increased survivability).
    Last edited by shadowboy; 2013-06-29 at 05:58 AM.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by achromatickang View Post
    The irony being that every single plate class in the entire game deals notably more damage in PVP than any leather wearing class.
    Care to give some numbers for that baseless claim? Ret pallies have good burst, but that's it.

    Quote Originally Posted by shadowboy View Post
    You again missed the point. The crit doesn't matter. The crit is 100%, completely, and UTTERLY irrelevent in the discussion at hand. It DOES NOT MATTER. This isn't a discussion of damage or offense, it's a discussion of defense. You are using crit as a straw man argument.
    You forget that dodges can happen when you're behind someone, and parries cannot. Unless I'm mistaken, could be. <Was indeed wrong

    You cannot disregard the fact that agility gives free crit. THAT is an advantage to wearing leather armor, and if I am not mistaken that is the thread's name?
    Last edited by angryplateguy; 2013-06-29 at 05:58 AM. Reason: I don't pvp are you crazy, can't dodge from behind then

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by angryplateguy View Post
    It's about movement and defenses. You as a rogue get evasion, something no plate wearer gets.

    Another thing to remember, is you cannot parry attacks made from behind, you can dodge them. So, consider that for a moment.
    1) I would gladly trade Evasion in for Die By the Sword. 50% increased dodge rate versus 100% parry rate + 20% damage reduction and on a much shorter CD. Not to mention Shield Wall, passive DRs, plate armor mitigation, weakened blows etc. Currently leather wearers do get hit way more often, and for way more damage. This is not really even debatable.

    2) You actually cannot dodge from behind.

  18. #38
    Shadowboy if you keep feeding it will never go away.

    Infracted: spam
    Last edited by Kael; 2013-06-29 at 07:13 AM.

  19. #39
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  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by shadowboy View Post
    What game are you playing? I play World of Warcraft, and in World of Warcraft, players can't dodge attacks from behind.

    And regarding the issue at hand from the OP, it comes to this.

    Rogues have iconically been a glass cannon class. High burst, high control, but very fragile (low survivability). The game has evolved to strip away much of the control and burst of the class (not arguing that this is good or bad, just stating the way it is) but has not compensated the other half of the "glass cannon" ideaology (i.e., increased survivability).
    You argue that their fragile. I argue they are not, they have cooldowns for a reason. They lost their "Glass cannon" motif in cata when they got combat readiness. Via cloak of shadows and evasion they can go several moments not taking damage. Combat readiness will make them take some amount of reduced damage, and then they have recup which is getting buffed next patch. You still have all the control you used to have, its just not as broken. You also have smokebomb a tool no other class possesses, where you can literally cut your opponent off from his team.

    In regards to leather giving benefits; what benefits does plate receive? So many classes deal mostly or at least partially magical or bleed or poison damage it isn't funny. Plate should give more health too, but it doesn't any more. At least you've got the same health a warrior or dk would in the same item level of gear.

    As people pointed out earlier, the game lost a lot of the RPG nonsense because it doesn't exactly make for a fun and balanced game. If it did, we'd have never left burning crusade where a freshly 70 mage might struggle hitting 3000 hp.

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