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  1. #21
    Brewmaster cyqu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trape View Post
    Gonna laugh when a 25 man guild takes both realm's first.
    Gonna laugh when our 10man group gets both realm firsts.
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  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Liebchen View Post
    You don't get it do you?
    The problem is not 25man raids doing a 10man alt-raid to get both Realm Firsts... 99% of the 25man guilds wouldn't be able to do it anyway, most alt raids of 25man guilds i know aren't able to kill more than 2-3 hcs in ToT for example.

    The problem is 25man raids getting Realm First 25man in lets say week 10 and in week 11 they just take their 12-15 best players, clear the instance with overpowered setups (2 warlocks + 2 boomkins if you need it which no 10man raid could affort) and 10 ilvl more than the 10man raids to get the 10man Realm First too... there doesn't even have to be that much of a difference between the guilds... if the 25man raid is Worldrank 200 and the 10man is 300 it's already enough for the 25man raid to do so.

    Only being able to get one feast per guild doesn't help either... they could just make a new guild and do it if they want to annoy the 10man raids.
    Make the achievement/feat of strength account-wide and mutually exclusive.
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  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Floopa View Post
    Are these going to be separate? If so, whinging from 10 mans INC!
    Why would they whine. I dont compete with 10man guilds, and 10man guilds shouldnt see the 25man guilds as competition either. They're both different. If they are keeping the status of both, this is the best thing that could happen.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-28 at 02:58 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Gobra View Post
    Why would there be any whinging? Oh that's right, there wouldn't, not from proper guilds

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-28 at 10:03 AM ----------



    If you could do the realm first in a 25man raid, then after, get your alts and do it all over again, on 10 man, before any other guild could get a 10man kill, then you would deserve it.
    What this guy said.

  4. #24
    Pandaren Monk Of-the-horde's Avatar
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    I might even consider joining some 25 man guild on a dead server just to do this :P

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Liebchen View Post
    You don't get it do you?
    The problem is not 25man raids doing a 10man alt-raid to get both Realm Firsts... 99% of the 25man guilds wouldn't be able to do it anyway, most alt raids of 25man guilds i know aren't able to kill more than 2-3 hcs in ToT for example.

    The problem is 25man raids getting Realm First 25man in lets say week 10 and in week 11 they just take their 12-15 best players, clear the instance with overpowered setups (2 warlocks + 2 boomkins if you need it which no 10man raid could affort) and 10 ilvl more than the 10man raids to get the 10man Realm First too... there doesn't even have to be that much of a difference between the guilds... if the 25man raid is Worldrank 200 and the 10man is 300 it's already enough for the 25man raid to do so.

    Only being able to get one feast per guild doesn't help either... they could just make a new guild and do it if they want to annoy the 10man raids.
    You dont get it do you? 25 man guilds have always been able to downsize for whatever boss they felt like to secure realm firsts. This is a QOL change for 25 man guilds, not for 10 man guilds.

  6. #26
    Mechagnome Lethora's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Catharsius View Post
    Why would they whine. I dont compete with 10man guilds, and 10man guilds shouldnt see the 25man guilds as competition either. They're both different. If they are keeping the status of both, this is the best thing that could happen.
    This.
    For example, on our realm best progressed guild is 11/13H and it's 10man, we're coming second with 7/13H and we're 25m. The thing is, there's no competition between us and them, since we take entirely different approach on raiding. They do PTRs to clear all the content and raid about 4-6hrs/week more than we do. We don't bother with PTRs and just casually walk down the raiding path at the pace of 9hrs/week.
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  7. #27
    So, how does this work with Virtual Realms? >_>

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-28 at 10:10 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Trape View Post
    Gonna laugh when a 25 man guild takes both realm's first.
    Ok well right now, there's only one guild getting the achievement anyway. And this isn't even a the worse case scenario, if that guild does both... there's still basically only one achievement.


    Guilds could do that now anyway, they could shift to 10 if they wanted, and get the realm first. Doesn't seem like an issue to me.

  8. #28
    Great, a FoT that my guilde gonna get next expansion !
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  9. #29
    Anything that helps 25 man guilds to survive on low/middle pop realms is great.

  10. #30
    Stood in the Fire Mozez's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Asmekiel View Post
    They could make it so if you have either version, you can't get the other anymore. Problem solved.
    If guild A kills it realm first in 25 man and then downsizes and does it the next week before any 10 man guild is able to kill it, then both of those kills are 'technically' realm first kills. When guild B comes along and kills the 10 man counterpart then their kill WILL NOT be a realm first, because other people have killed it first. It would not make sense to make the achievement mutually exclusive, as it would not be true to the achievement names.

  11. #31
    The Patient
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    This maybe nice for 25 mans, but the question is going to be how you're going to implement it. In my opinion, make it mutually exclusive(as has been suggested earlier) on the same realm per account. However, get 10's on 1 realm and 25's version would be a feat, so that should be possible to exist.

    Main question for me is: which 25 man guild is going to get that realm first? RF Sha hc was achieved in 10 man after the then nr 1 guild on the server killed Lei Shen, I don't see that really changing with virtual realms, or we should be grouped with a realm like Draenor or TN.

  12. #32
    Herald of the Titans Gobra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mozez View Post
    If guild A kills it realm first in 25 man and then downsizes and does it the next week before any 10 man guild is able to kill it, then both of those kills are 'technically' realm first kills. When guild B comes along and kills the 10 man counterpart then their kill WILL NOT be a realm first, because other people have killed it first. It would not make sense to make the achievement mutually exclusive, as it would not be true to the achievement names.
    I think this guy puts it well, Making it so you cannot get one if you get the other is totally and utterly pointless, and makes the achievment a lie, it is just the first group of 10, or 25 people to kill it, if guild A gets both, then guild B kills it on 10man 3days later, there is no reason they should get a realm first if they are infact, second.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Stark
    They say that the best weapon is the one you never have to fire. I respectfully disagree. I prefer the weapon you only have to fire once. That's how Dad did it, that's how America does it, and it's worked out pretty well so far. I present to you the newest in Stark Industries' Freedom line. Find an excuse to let one of these off the chain, and I personally guarantee, the bad guys won't even wanna come out of their caves. Ladies and gentlemen, for your consideration... the Jericho.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by cFortyfive View Post
    Yeah there have been really no guilds that progressed on tot with two warlocks and at least one boomkin...ah wait...
    Anyways finally something decent.
    the part you missed was the more important last part of his post.. the Ilvl.

    there is a 25 man dread and us on our server. we killed lei shen 7 minutes before them. and ra-den 2 days before them.
    There ilvl 537 our ilvl 531 we killed basically the same bosses at the same times as them the whole tier but by the end they had 6 ilvl on us almost a half of tier of gear? LIKE WTF BLIZZ. They could have easily went 10 man and got the kill just overpowering it. If you want to make it fair make it where we don't de 3/4 of our loot every week while they get ateast 3 good pieces per boss. we have 3 people in our raid still without a heroic trinket guarentee no 25 man doesn't have offspec heroic trinkets.

    Easy fix for blizz though if you get 25 man realm first your account is flagged ineligible for the 10 man. and vice versa so a 10 man can't get server first then "merge" with the top 25 man for a week so they can bench there baddies and kill the boss.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-28 at 05:07 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Gobra View Post
    I think this guy puts it well, Making it so you cannot get one if you get the other is totally and utterly pointless, and makes the achievment a lie, it is just the first group of 10, or 25 people to kill it, if guild A gets both, then guild B kills it on 10man 3days later, there is no reason they should get a realm first if they are infact, second.
    then its blizz showing blatant favoritism to 25 raiders. because 10 man's can't kill it first then magically get 15 more people and kill the other. OH wait they wouldn't be able to anyways cause 10 man loot is dumb compared to 25 man loot. and 25's have like 6 ilvl higher going into end bosses. so them swapping to 10 is invalidating any actual challenge of the boss with there LOL 25 man loot.

  14. #34
    Herald of the Titans Gobra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by momirmaster View Post
    the part you missed was the more important last part of his post.. the Ilvl.

    there is a 25 man dread and us on our server. we killed lei shen 7 minutes before them. and ra-den 2 days before them.
    There ilvl 537 our ilvl 531 we killed basically the same bosses at the same times as them the whole tier but by the end they had 6 ilvl on us almost a half of tier of gear? LIKE WTF BLIZZ. They could have easily went 10 man and got the kill just overpowering it. If you want to make it fair make it where we don't de 3/4 of our loot every week while they get ateast 3 good pieces per boss. we have 3 people in our raid still without a heroic trinket guarentee no 25 man doesn't have offspec heroic trinkets.

    Easy fix for blizz though if you get 25 man realm first your account is flagged ineligible for the 10 man. and vice versa so a 10 man can't get server first then "merge" with the top 25 man for a week so they can bench there baddies and kill the boss.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-28 at 05:07 PM ----------



    then its blizz showing blatant favoritism to 25 raiders. because 10 man's can't kill it first then magically get 15 more people and kill the other. OH wait they wouldn't be able to anyways cause 10 man loot is dumb compared to 25 man loot. and 25's have like 6 ilvl higher going into end bosses. so them swapping to 10 is invalidating any actual challenge of the boss with there LOL 25 man loot.
    I think you're taking everything a little too seriously:P
    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Stark
    They say that the best weapon is the one you never have to fire. I respectfully disagree. I prefer the weapon you only have to fire once. That's how Dad did it, that's how America does it, and it's worked out pretty well so far. I present to you the newest in Stark Industries' Freedom line. Find an excuse to let one of these off the chain, and I personally guarantee, the bad guys won't even wanna come out of their caves. Ladies and gentlemen, for your consideration... the Jericho.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by momirmaster View Post
    the part you missed was the more important last part of his post.. the Ilvl.

    there is a 25 man dread and us on our server. we killed lei shen 7 minutes before them. and ra-den 2 days before them.
    There ilvl 537 our ilvl 531 we killed basically the same bosses at the same times as them the whole tier but by the end they had 6 ilvl on us almost a half of tier of gear? LIKE WTF BLIZZ. They could have easily went 10 man and got the kill just overpowering it. If you want to make it fair make it where we don't de 3/4 of our loot every week while they get ateast 3 good pieces per boss. we have 3 people in our raid still without a heroic trinket guarentee no 25 man doesn't have offspec heroic trinkets.

    Easy fix for blizz though if you get 25 man realm first your account is flagged ineligible for the 10 man. and vice versa so a 10 man can't get server first then "merge" with the top 25 man for a week so they can bench there baddies and kill the boss.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-28 at 05:07 PM ----------



    then its blizz showing blatant favoritism to 25 raiders. because 10 man's can't kill it first then magically get 15 more people and kill the other. OH wait they wouldn't be able to anyways cause 10 man loot is dumb compared to 25 man loot. and 25's have like 6 ilvl higher going into end bosses. so them swapping to 10 is invalidating any actual challenge of the boss with there LOL 25 man loot.
    I couldn't careless if a 25 killed it on 25 then the next week killed it on 10. They won fair and square. It would be shitty however for them to funnel a bunch of gear to 10-12 people then before the top 10 man can and before they clear the content on 25 go and grab the FOS. This is such a rare case that I doubt it happens or will happen

  16. #36
    I don't think that's gonna happen unless they're the only competitive guild on the server. I guess I could see it happening if they've got alts all geared as good as their mains but does that happen very often on every server? That would be a pretty scumbag thing to do so I imagine anybody doing that would get shunned by the server.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by momirmaster View Post
    the part you missed was the more important last part of his post.. the Ilvl.
    Just from looking at the coordination & class abilities required to manage Lei Shens Ball Lightning (see: Method kill video) all of us 10M guilds should step back and feel really small. Having 5 more ilvl and the whole thunderforged things won't help with that... at all. I regulary don't jump in for 25M and while they might had an easier time on most of the midpack bosses this tier accomplishing something like Dark Animus or Lei Shen with 15 more people running around and all needing their personal space should be acknowledged.

    I felt similar about Ragnaros (handling the seedlings) or LK (defile, valks) and while there are other things that make 10M hard on it's own (it's not the gear difference - 10M enrage timer were always far more forgiving, proof me wrong if you can... but regulary the small roster/lack of alts to cheese. Or mechanics that hasn't been downscaled in sheer number and ie affecting 2/2 healer with cutter on Sinestra and you were going to have a bad time) only having the same amount of space for 2,5 times the people is impressive.
    Last edited by klausistklaus; 2013-06-28 at 06:25 PM.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by klausistklaus View Post
    Just from looking at the coordination & class abilities required to manage Lei Shens Ball Lightning (see: Method kill video) all of us 10M guilds should step back and feel really small. Having 5 more ilvl and the whole thunderforged things won't help with that... at all. I regulary don't jump in for 25M and while they might had an easier time on most of the midpack bosses this tier accomplishing something like Dark Animus or Lei Shen with 15 more people running around and all needing their personal space should be acknowledged.

    I felt similar about Ragnaros (handling the seedlings) or LK (defile, valks) and while there are other things that make 10M hard on it's own (it's not the gear difference - 10M enrage timer were always far more forgiving, proof me wrong if you can... but regulary the small roster/lack of alts to cheese. Or mechanics that hasn't been downscaled in sheer number and ie affecting 2/2 healer with cutter on Sinestra and you were going to have a bad time) only having the same amount of space for 2,5 times the people is impressive.
    your missing my point. and making my point at the same time.

    10man progression lower ilvl (at the RNG god's will with loot) lower gearchecks
    25 progression higher ilvl (LOL get every piece of loot you want) higher gearchecks

    25 man killing boss then going to 10 to take 10 man server first too=no gearcheck.... so why should they be allowed to get 2 server firsts for acomplishing nothing on the 2nd with there 25 man gear?

    and DA was only a retard check on either difficulty. to be fair the DPS check was harder in 10 man than 25 man until gear and item upgrades made both dps checks LOL. just look at paragon's taking 4x the time method did for DA. lei shen was harder on 25 but difficulty of bosses is not my point. My point is that a 25 shouldn't be allowed to take away a 10 man's server first when there not a 10 man. It should be the same thing as if you transfered server's if you kill 25 man and get the realm first. your account should be put on a 2 month Cooldown before being able to take 10 man server first.
    Last edited by momirmaster; 2013-06-28 at 07:11 PM.

  19. #39
    It's a beneficial change. Same or better.

    Either, one guild is getting the achievement. Like now.
    Or two guilds get it, which is better.

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