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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by dope_danny View Post
    Okay, if forsaken weren't playable you know right at the end of this battle everyone, red and blue, would just turn on her ass in a heartbeat. I mean raising them out in the wilds? yeah thats bad. Literally raising soldiers friends, comrades and the org citizens like gamon that got stuck in the city? These people are the champions of the alliance and horde, they remember icecrown.
    Well unlike Arthas, Sylvanas gives her Forsaken a choice in the matter. I remember quite clearly that right after you start out as a Forsaken, you're essentially told: "If you don't enjoy being undead, you can lay back down into the grave, no questions asked".

    So while Forsaken and Scourge are both undead, they are relatively free under Sylvanas (she remembers being a slave under the Lich King after all..), while Arthas put the chain around every undead's neck under him.
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  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Calamari View Post
    Well unlike Arthas, Sylvanas gives her Forsaken a choice in the matter. I remember quite clearly that right after you start out as a Forsaken, you're essentially told: "If you don't enjoy being undead, you can lay back down into the grave, no questions asked".

    So while Forsaken and Scourge are both undead, they are relatively free under Sylvanas (she remembers being a slave under the Lich King after all..), while Arthas put the chain around every undead's neck under him.
    I've heard this said, but it does not match what we see in-game. What we see is Alliance NPCs being killed by the Forsaken, and then immediately raised by those same Forsaken and their first words are "For the Dark Lady!". These are not the actions of someone with free will.

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by 7seti View Post
    I've heard this said, but it does not match what we see in-game. What we see is Alliance NPCs being killed by the Forsaken, and then immediately raised by those same Forsaken and their first words are "For the Dark Lady!". These are not the actions of someone with free will.
    Incorrect. If you do the first few Forsaken quests in Tirisfal, then you see something else.

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  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Venziir View Post
    Incorrect. If you do the first few Forsaken quests in Tirisfal, then you see something else.
    And if you do quests in Silverpine and WPL, you see exactly what I said. Since those zones are chronologically after Sylvanas gets shot in the head, I presume that she tightened her grip on new undead after that incident.

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by 7seti View Post
    I've heard this said, but it does not match what we see in-game. What we see is Alliance NPCs being killed by the Forsaken, and then immediately raised by those same Forsaken and their first words are "For the Dark Lady!". These are not the actions of someone with free will.
    Q: Why do some Alliance soldiers raised by the Forsaken immediately become loyal to the Forsaken while others do not? Are they being mind controlled? If so, by whom: Sylvanas or the Val’kyr? How does this relate to the fact that the Forsaken cultural identity is based on their free will and rebellion against the Lich King?

    A: Free will is one of the cornerstones of Forsaken culture, with the great capacity for both good and evil that it entails. However, some undead, especially those who die in combat or under extreme stress and are raised soon after, enter into a violent, frenzied state. Undead in this state are easily manipulated and their rage is often directed at the foes of those who raised them. After the effects wear off, if the risen corpse has not been destroyed, they are given the same ultimatum that other Forsaken are offered: join the Dark Lady or return to the grave.

    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/5208785474#1
    Last edited by leaks; 2013-06-29 at 09:38 AM.
    "Terror, darkness, power? The Forsaken crave not these things; the Forsaken ARE these things."

  6. #86
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    I think blizz is trying to explain why we'll have elf and orc and etc. forsaken once the new models roll in. hopefully.

  7. #87
    Free will is one of the cornerstones of Forsaken culture, with the great capacity for both good and evil that it entails. However, some undead, especially those who die in combat or under extreme stress and are raised soon after, enter into a violent, frenzied state. Undead in this state are easily manipulated and their rage is often directed at the foes of those who raised them.
    Yes, I've seen this too. It's a weak attempt to cover inconsistencies in Blizzard's writing. If it's true, we should see far more rebel Forsaken than those few in Tirisfal.

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by 7seti View Post
    I've heard this said, but it does not match what we see in-game. What we see is Alliance NPCs being killed by the Forsaken, and then immediately raised by those same Forsaken and their first words are "For the Dark Lady!". These are not the actions of someone with free will.
    In game it takes few seconds, but how long it takes for the souls to return to their body. Or what did they see on the other side that made them decide that undeath is not that bad.
    The common man is like a worm in the gut of a corpse, trapped inside a prison of cold flesh, helpless and uncaring, unaware even of the inevitability of its own doom.

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by 7seti View Post
    I've heard this said, but it does not match what we see in-game. What we see is Alliance NPCs being killed by the Forsaken, and then immediately raised by those same Forsaken and their first words are "For the Dark Lady!". These are not the actions of someone with free will.
    There are also those that scream "What did you do to me!?" or "What have I become?" It seems that not all newly risen Forsaken are immediately loyal. Sylvanas definitely has the power to MAKE someone loyal - her speech to Koltira (and his unknown fate) show that well enough.

    As far as Val'kyr, they can raise anything, it's just that we've only seen them recently in Lordaeron, where there are mostly humans in the ground or to be killed. The Forsaken are more than just humans, however, as many are also the dead High Elves of Quel'thalas that were killed when Arthas wanted to get to the Sunwell. It's also not a stretch of the imagination to assume there may be a few dead elves in Lordaeron as well. It's assumed the Val'kyr also help animate the abominations created by the Forsaken Apothecaries, which are an amalgamation of different souls and skins. Also, the lines Sylvanas says in SoO make it pretty clear that almost anyone that dies there can "become" Forsaken.

    We know the Worgen can't be raised by the Val'kyr due to Goldrinn's blessing already being a "curse". The Worgen DKs are very easily explained by the Worgen DK quest in the starting zone. They were servants of Arugal. When Arugal was raised as an agent of the Scourge by the San'layn, the worgen followed him. They were once Gilnean as well, it seems, perhaps hailing from Pyrewood originally. IT's assumed they were transformed by the Lich King, who had a lot more power than a simple Val'kyr. While the Val'kyr seem to just HAVE the power to raise the dead, the Lich King would do so using a demonic weapon, enhanced by demonic armor which gave him the ability to control the undead in the first place. Thus, Undead Worgen.
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  10. #90
    Unless that's been retconned, they can only raise humans:
    http://www.wowhead.com/quest=27548

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by 7seti View Post
    Yes, I've seen this too. It's a weak attempt to cover inconsistencies in Blizzard's writing. If it's true, we should see far more rebel Forsaken than those few in Tirisfal.
    See them where? That area is stuck in the past, the zones don't update.
    "Terror, darkness, power? The Forsaken crave not these things; the Forsaken ARE these things."

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Insarius View Post
    Worgen Death Knight.
    death knights are different from normal undead. Paladins are supposedly immune to the undead plague but can be turned into death knights.

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by leaks View Post
    If that was true they would have all just killed themselves. Don't knock it til you've tried it.
    well if what happened to sylvanas when she died happens to all undead, well i would rather have a miserable life than eternal torment

  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venziir View Post
    Incorrect. If you do the first few Forsaken quests in Tirisfal, then you see something else.
    The problem is that this just isn't the case in Silverpine.
    We have Agatha saying things such as "Bow before your new master!" and "Rise and destroy our enemies!". That doesn't sound like she's giving them a choice and instead suggests something else.
    You then have the Hillsbrad Refugess who having just been killed by the Forsaken and fleeing in terror from them are then risen and respond with "I am Forsaken." and "At your command.".

    This combined with the fact Sylvanas offers to raise Blood Elves is another reason why I really dislike the Val'kyr idea. It so far has proven to be woefully inconsistent.

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by Calamari View Post
    Well unlike Arthas, Sylvanas gives her Forsaken a choice in the matter. I remember quite clearly that right after you start out as a Forsaken, you're essentially told: "If you don't enjoy being undead, you can lay back down into the grave, no questions asked".

    So while Forsaken and Scourge are both undead, they are relatively free under Sylvanas (she remembers being a slave under the Lich King after all..), while Arthas put the chain around every undead's neck under him.
    thats only partially true, for the first few hours an undead is raised they are extremely devoted and somewhat brainwashed to whoever raised them and become extremely aggressive, for the first few hours they are basically mindless killing machines doing whatever their masters say until they regain control.

    so it would be like if someone drugged you up and forced you to shoot your family and then were like "well now you have a choice, you can either work for me or go to jail for the rest of your life" while also being subject to the mental illness, brain damage, and general bad things that happen to your body when its infused with necromantic energy.

    a false choice is not really a choice

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-29 at 06:31 AM ----------

    not to mention the majority of these people have seen great tradgedy by the undead, they are not us, they do not fully realize the difference between undead minions and undead citizens, death knights for example are tolerated because of what they are capable of they are not accepted by almost anyone except for their closest allies and leaders who through proving themselves have shown they are not the monsters they were made to be.

    becoming undead forces someone into a living nightmare where you can nolonger taste, sleep, have sex, your emotions are dulled, and the worst part, even if you off yourself you get sent to some pseudo hell because necromancy taints the soul.

    sylvanas knows this, yet she continues to force this upon others.

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Immitis View Post

    becoming undead forces someone into a living nightmare where you can nolonger taste, sleep, have sex, your emotions are dulled
    How is this nightmare. Finaly released from the slavery to hedonism.
    The common man is like a worm in the gut of a corpse, trapped inside a prison of cold flesh, helpless and uncaring, unaware even of the inevitability of its own doom.

  17. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Immitis View Post
    thats only partially true, for the first few hours an undead is raised they are extremely devoted and somewhat brainwashed to whoever raised them and become extremely aggressive, for the first few hours they are basically mindless killing machines doing whatever their masters say until they regain control.

    so it would be like if someone drugged you up and forced you to shoot your family and then were like "well now you have a choice, you can either work for me or go to jail for the rest of your life" while also being subject to the mental illness, brain damage, and general bad things that happen to your body when its infused with necromantic energy.

    a false choice is not really a choice

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-29 at 06:31 AM ----------

    not to mention the majority of these people have seen great tradgedy by the undead, they are not us, they do not fully realize the difference between undead minions and undead citizens, death knights for example are tolerated because of what they are capable of they are not accepted by almost anyone except for their closest allies and leaders who through proving themselves have shown they are not the monsters they were made to be.

    becoming undead forces someone into a living nightmare where you can nolonger taste, sleep, have sex, your emotions are dulled, and the worst part, even if you off yourself you get sent to some pseudo hell because necromancy taints the soul.

    sylvanas knows this, yet she continues to force this upon others.
    So you went from "if" it taints your soul to it definitely does. Maybe Sylvanas goes to "hell" cause she's a heartless bitch with no sympathy just like she was in life.

    The thing I love about this argument is that Blizzard's word is law right up until people don't want to hear it.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-29 at 06:47 AM ----------

    I also love how being undead is a travesty unless you slap on some plate armor, raise some bodies into mindless servitude, fling around some disease, and are addicted to inflicting pain on other people. Then it's ok.
    Last edited by leaks; 2013-06-29 at 10:44 AM.
    "Terror, darkness, power? The Forsaken crave not these things; the Forsaken ARE these things."

  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by 7seti View Post
    And if you do quests in Silverpine and WPL, you see exactly what I said. Since those zones are chronologically after Sylvanas gets shot in the head, I presume that she tightened her grip on new undead after that incident.
    Incorrect again. The Silverpine questline ends with the headshot.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-29 at 11:04 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by zhero View Post
    death knights are different from normal undead. Paladins are supposedly immune to the undead plague but can be turned into death knights.
    You are nixons current lore, Wotlk lore and outdated Warcraft 3 lore.

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  19. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venziir View Post

    You are nixons current lore, Wotlk lore and outdated Warcraft 3 lore.
    They are just confused. Paladins are immune to the disease not from being raised. If paladins couldn't be raised at all then all those undead Scarlet Crusaders in Stratholme wouldn't make much sense.
    "Terror, darkness, power? The Forsaken crave not these things; the Forsaken ARE these things."

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Venziir View Post
    Incorrect. If you do the first few Forsaken quests in Tirisfal, then you see something else.
    No...he's right . It matches nothing in game.

    In your very first quest, you are told to kill those who haven't for whatever reason, accepted Sylvanas's offer. Sure - some of them are hostile. Many of them aren't. In the quest givers own words, they are simply frightened and confused...and so must die.
    Shortly afterwards, you are told to retrieve the bodies of Scarlet Crusaders for revival. Scarlet Crusaders. Think about that - virulently mad anti-undead fanatics are raised with the expectation that they'll be loyal to Sylvanas simply by agreeing to stay raised.

    So - no. The only aspect of the game which shows the Forsaken have freedom of will - or, rather, are intended to have freedom of will - is the fact that you are told this is so. Told. What you are shown is very different. Even the most virulently rabid anti-undead fanatics immediately become Sylvanas loyalists turning on friends, family, colleagues and nation. Its also questionable as to how easy it is to say "No" once you've been raised. Can Forsaken will themselves to death? No. So burying themselves back up doesn't really do much.

    Now - this isn't to say that free willed Forsaken can't or don't exist in game. Just that the standard for them - as depicted - doesn't show the freedom of will is a high priority.

    Against this we have Blizzards out of game explanation. This is effectively Word of God. It also matches nothing of what actually occurs in game. Blizzard either doesn't know what direction it is taking with the Forsaken, or it's changed course, or its realised it went too far and is trying to backpedal or something.

    Right now, it is impossible to determine which path is correct.

    In game? The majority of the Forsaken are effectively dominated - fully functional, able to act of their own will to a degree but still chained to Sylvanas to some degree. They would be the equivalent of Arthas' higher functioning undead commanders. This domination can be broken - but rarely. PCs and the odd NPC such as Godfrey would be prime examples. The Forsaken are told they have free will; what they aren't told about are the limits.

    Out of game? The Forsaken are totally devoted to Sylvanas. They have full control over their actions and are not shackled or bound in any way. The reason why they turn to Sylvanas so quickly and with such devotion and with such hatred towards their former friends and families and nations to the point of actively fighting against EVERYTHING they stood for in defence of a faction and leader they may have despised a few minutes earlier is....well...it just IS.

    Yes - I am aware of Blizzards so-called answer. Things is - it's nonsensical.

    EJL
    Last edited by Talen; 2013-06-29 at 11:16 AM.

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