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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Immitis View Post
    becoming undead forces someone into a living nightmare where you can nolonger taste, sleep, have sex, your emotions are dulled
    1 - you can taste stuff, you just can't be bothered by bad tastes. there are forsaken cooks that cook for the undead that enjoy eating.
    2 - you can sleep, you just aren't forced to sleep like the living.
    3 - the semen-stained porn book of the scourge in acherus suggests the undead can have sex (including incorporeal ones, like banshees)

    http://www.wowpedia.org/Touch_of_the_Banshee

    Touch of the Banshee

    Skor'zad nervously peered around the corner of the column. As he has planned, he saw her floating there, alone in her chamber. Had he made the right decision, visiting the banshee's private chamber so late at night? The necromancers would surely put him back into the ground if he was discovered. What's worse, he didn't even know if his feelings were requited, and Madame Sidnari was known for her short temper.

    What few doubts the zombie had were quickly tossed aside once he caught a full glimpse of her beauty. Her distinctly elven features - a reminder of her form in a past life - were now only enhanced by the oozing wounds and scabs that dotted her face. Purple, almost translucent skin was frugally covered by necrotic wrappings that hugged her waifish figure. Cold flesh neatly fused with the ephemeral as her legless torso sat upon a bluish sphere of energy, drifting a few inches above the cold granite floor. Skor'zad allowed himself to relax a bit and wiped the sweat and ichor that dripped alternatingly from his prominent brow.

    Seemingly unaware of his presence, she glided to the only window in the room and looked out upon the battlefield. Desolation stretched out before her. Not six hours ago has the shrill cries of human children pierced the air, but now... only the sweet silence of death.

    The wind caught her hair now, playfully flipping the worm-like tangles around her hollowed-out eye sockets. Skor'zad, suddenly aware that he was leaning forward with lust, shrank back behind the column, terrified that the Dark Wailer might have seen him. She had indeed seen him - but he had no reason to fear.

    "Skor'zad," she said. "I've been waiting for you. You fought well today." The banshee glanced coyly over her rotting right shoulder, allowing her wrappings to loosen ever so slightly. "It's time you... collected your reward."

    <The next few pages seem to be stuck together.>
    inb4 "you can't get a boner without a pulse!": well, technically you can't walk around without one either. also - rigor mortis, baby

    4 - the effects of undeath on one's emotions vary wildly from one individual to the other. dumass doesn't feel like his emotions are dulled. calder gray is as happy as a child, though his happiness is misguided. this one is just my personal opinion, but I think the "no emotions forsaken" archetype is more of a consequence of the stressful and traumatic experience of being murdered that messes up with the emotional camp of some forsaken.
    Warlorcs of Draenorc made me quit. You can't have my stuff.

  2. #102
    Legendary! Granyala's Avatar
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    <The next few pages seem to be stuck together.>
    Yuuck!
    Why the F* did I even read that? >.<

    Ifalna Sha'yoko on Twitter and Armory - Occasionally unfaithful to WoW with my Wizard- (ノಠ益ಠ)ノ彡┻━ ┻

  3. #103
    really? the alliance will allow you to raise your troops as dead and do nothing?

    gone to shit blizzard, always with the horde favoritism

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    No...he's right . It matches nothing in game.

    In your very first quest, you are told to kill those who haven't for whatever reason, accepted Sylvanas's offer. Sure - some of them are hostile. Many of them aren't. In the quest givers own words, they are simply frightened and confused...and so must die.

    EJL
    actually you are wrong. the ones that you kill aren't the ones that didn't accept it. they are the ones that lost their minds. mindless undead are put down as mercy.

    Others lose their minds completely, shambling about aimlessly. They often turn to violence, and must be destroyed.

    This is your task, <name>. Destroy them, our former brothers and sisters as they might be.
    but right after that, we get a quest where we go talk to 3 different undead and see their reactions to rising. one of them accepts to work with the forsaken, another one runs away, and the third one decides not to join.

    http://www.wowpedia.org/Quest:The_Wakening

    You've done well, <class>. As you can see, not all of us have resigned to our fates. I'm glad to see that you're at least willing to work.

    Valred will be a valuable asset to the Forsaken. As for the other two... there is not much we can do. We cannot force them to join us.
    a good while after that, there is a quest where some undead rebel, and we kill them.

    so this shows what happens:

    1 - if you join the forsaken, awesome!
    2 - if you don't join the forsaken, what a shame
    3 - if you rebel against the forsaken, they kill you.
    4 - if you lose your mind, they put you down.

    now, the 4th one may sound harsh, but remember: the worgen do exactly the same! mindless worgen that can't regain their minds are put down according to their law!

    http://www.wowpedia.org/Quest:Last_Chance_at_Humanity (gilneas)

    Lord Godfrey says: Give it up, Krennan. It's time to put this one down. It's protocol.
    http://www.wowpedia.org/Quest:Cry_For_The_Moon (duskwood)

    I'm hopeful, but let's remain professional. It's business as usual for this one.

    Into the guillotine he goes... and if the alchemy doesn't take, he won't be getting back out of it.
    Warlorcs of Draenorc made me quit. You can't have my stuff.

  5. #105
    My theory:

    The Blood Elves have gotten the hands on Anima, a form of life magic which is related to DK blood/life manipulation. Therefore, their attempts to control it have been restricted to building constructs and not someone able to actually control it.
    As a coincidence, Sylvanas may raise some Blood Elves that may end up being able to control Anima and prove that the physiology of the DK body is like a biological machine and open new doors to the Sindorei warfare. As a result, Sylvanas may prove useful to the Horde and the Blood Elves, while Koltira and Horde side of Ebon Blade may join Lor'themar's cause.

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by checking facts View Post
    actually you are wrong. the ones that you kill aren't the ones that didn't accept it. they are the ones that lost their minds. mindless undead are put down as mercy.
    Killed and put down because they are confused and afraid? They don't want to be undead - so they are hunted down? Not given a chance to adjust and adapt so they're put down?

    The question that arises here is if anything here contradicts a presumption that the Forsaken are charmed/dominated into submission and allegiance to Sylvanas and the Forsaken.

    The players are told they have a choice. Good. The choice is false - they can't will themselves dead.
    The players are told to hunt others who they are told are fearful or hostile or confused. What happens to all those who refuse Sylvanas' offer? Where do they go? They can't will themselves dead, yet they aren't hanging around Deathknell either. What this questline comes down to is that you are up and loyal to Sylvanas and you are told to hunt down a group of NPCs who aren't. The debate is why....maybe they are confused. Redpath is certainly hostile. The problem again is simply being told these are just confused or fearful as opposed to not swearing allegiance to Sylvanas.

    And then....we run right out of any arguments at all in game for the Forsaken being freewilled as just about everything that touches on it requires coercion of some sort. So....we have the situation where 95% of the encounters show or require coercion and the remainder don't contradict that. Or maybe its just some Forsaken she controls. Deathknell, in and of itself, proves nothing. Its a point in favor of free will if you support that idea, but ultimately disproves nothing if you don't.

    but right after that, we get a quest where we go talk to 3 different undead and see their reactions to rising. one of them accepts to work with the forsaken, another one runs away, and the third one decides not to join.
    Which - proves nothing. If they ARE dominated, joining is inevitable. If strong will or bodily deterioration can overcome the domination, that explains the others.

    Either way, what you still have is a situation where those who accept and join with Sylvanas live and those who don't are killed and used for spare parts. In either case, the promise that you can just easily refuse and return to death is shown to be non-existant.

    EJL

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    The players are told they have a choice. Good. The choice is false - they can't will themselves dead.
    Obviously they can, some of the fresh ones just fall dead when they disagree with the current forsaken recruitement program.
    The common man is like a worm in the gut of a corpse, trapped inside a prison of cold flesh, helpless and uncaring, unaware even of the inevitability of its own doom.

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    Killed and put down because they are confused and afraid? They don't want to be undead - so they are hunted down? Not given a chance to adjust and adapt so they're put down?
    false! the ones that are put down aren't the confused and afraid ones. they are the MINDLESS ones.

    the confused and afraid ones are addressed on the other quest where you give them a choice.

    The question that arises here is if anything here contradicts a presumption that the Forsaken are charmed/dominated into submission and allegiance to Sylvanas and the Forsaken.

    The players are told they have a choice. Good. The choice is false - they can't will themselves dead.
    they can chop their heads off.

    The players are told to hunt others who they are told are fearful or hostile or confused.
    players talk to the fearful and confused ones. they only hunt hostile ones. just like humans kill defias.

    What happens to all those who refuse Sylvanas' offer? Where do they go? They can't will themselves dead, yet they aren't hanging around Deathknell either.
    some suicide. some join the argent crusade (like argent apothecary judkins), others get a job at the venture co (they have an awful lot of undead workers). the reason you don't see them in many places is because most people don't accept them.

    What this questline comes down to is that you are up and loyal to Sylvanas and you are told to hunt down a group of NPCs who aren't. The debate is why....maybe they are confused.
    they are not confused, they are mindless. undeath and the worgen curse have this in common. if you don't have a strong will, you lose your mind and become nothing more than a dangerous beast, so both sides put their mindless ones down.

    The problem again is simply being told these are just confused or fearful as opposed to not swearing allegiance to Sylvanas.
    re-read quest text. they say some are confused and fearful, and some are mindless and hostile. they ask you to kill the mindless and hostile only. afterwards, they ask you to talk to the confused and fearful ones.

    Either way, what you still have is a situation where those who accept and join with Sylvanas live and those who don't are killed and used for spare parts. In either case, the promise that you can just easily refuse and return to death is shown to be non-existant.

    EJL
    being killed again = return to death

    it doesn't mean you'll really return to the grave whole, they may use your body parts for something, but why should you care if you aren't using your body anymore?
    Warlorcs of Draenorc made me quit. You can't have my stuff.

  9. #109
    Q: Why do some Alliance soldiers raised by the Forsaken immediately become loyal to the Forsaken while others do not? Are they being mind controlled? If so, by whom: Sylvanas or the Val’kyr? How does this relate to the fact that the Forsaken cultural identity is based on their free will and rebellion against the Lich King?
    A: Free will is one of the cornerstones of Forsaken culture, with the great capacity for both good and evil that it entails. However, some undead, especially those who die in combat or under extreme stress and are raised soon after, enter into a violent, frenzied state. Undead in this state are easily manipulated and their rage is often directed at the foes of those who raised them. After the effects wear off, if the risen corpse has not been destroyed, they are given the same ultimatum that other Forsaken are offered: join the Dark Lady or return to the grave.
    Q: "We also don't know what saying no and returning to the grave entails. Is it painless and a simple going back to sleep? Or is it experiencing some unpleasant form of death all over again?"

    A: "They probably just stab/bludgeon/shoot you."

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