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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by paulleedot View Post
    I'm currently at 532 ilvl and i'm sitting at ~740k HP fully raid buffed with a stam flask - this is more than 100k lower than my DK tank (who frequently makes fun of me for it).
    DKs have the largest Stamina modifier in the game 39% compared to Paladins at 30% so if they don't have a higher healthpool than a paladin there is a significant gear difference.

    As for the OP, Pool to 5 HP then SotR if a hard hitting ability comes you will easily get back to 3 HP prior to your current SotR buff wearing off. Then just build back to 5 or use it sooner in the case of Tortos for snapping bite at lower haste levels.

    Also mentioned on this thread AMR is a fine tool that works well, However the default stat weights it puts in simply may not be ideal for every class/spec/raid size, but you can easily adjust them. So please people don't blame the tool if you don't put in the weights.

    As far as Exp capping being 'gravy' or not 'required'. Tying my shoe laces isn't required either, however I greatly increase the chance of tripping by failing to do so. When going for Control/Haste don't go halfway, get Hit/Exp caps because the active mitigation model relies heavily on reliable holy power generation to preform most effectively. Contrary to AMR thinking/design which will sometimes bring you just under cap you NEVER want a situation where you do not have reliable holy power generation. We don't operate under the same terms as a dps does missing the critical defensive cool down because of a lack of Holy Power is unacceptable as a tank. If you want to hear this from Theck himself check out this link read the Conclusion.

    A little stamina is certainly acceptable if I were you I would wait for your gear to pick up a bit before going full haste.

    I have quite a few Protection Videos on my Youtube, I'm by no means an amazing player but I do have a good understanding of the mechanics so check them out.
    Last edited by -ex-; 2013-07-01 at 03:35 PM.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by -ex- View Post
    As far as Exp capping being 'gravy' or not 'required'. Tying my shoe laces isn't required either, however I greatly increase the chance of tripping by failing to do so. When going for Control/Haste don't go halfway, get Hit/Exp caps because the active mitigation model relies heavily on reliable holy power generation to preform most effectively. Contrary to AMR thinking/design which will sometimes bring you just under cap you NEVER want a situation where you do not have reliable holy power generation. We don't operate under the same terms as a dps does missing the critical defensive cool down because of a lack of Holy Power is unacceptable as a tank. If you want to hear this from Theck himself check out this link read the Conclusion.
    One thing you might notice on the mmo-champion forums is that most of the regular posters here has the ability to think for themselves.

    I would say that there a far more reasons to not cap expertise than there is to cap expertise. Active mitigation model depends on HoPo generation. Haste give you more HoPo generation than Expertise (unless you are sitting on very high haste and very low expertise). Haste also gives you higher dps, hps and more sacred shield absorbs. I would trade that any day for the "reliablity" of expertise. Insert clever HoPo banking and suddenly expertise does not even give you reliablity.

    So basically, if you can play paladin tank properly, going for expertise hard cap is trading nothing at all for dps, hps, SS ticks and HoPo regen. That is a no-brainer if you ask me.

    I really dont understand why so many people are so hellbent on capping expertise. If you want to do it, fine, but dont try to convince everyone else that it is the only way. Capping expertise is viable, and probably optimal if you play badly. However if you play well it will be sub-par.

    I have not been expertise capped since beta, and I do not intend to be until I can get expertise cap without sacrificing haste.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    One thing you might notice on the mmo-champion forums is that most of the regular posters here has the ability to think for themselves.

    I would say that there a far more reasons to not cap expertise than there is to cap expertise. Active mitigation model depends on HoPo generation. Haste give you more HoPo generation than Expertise (unless you are sitting on very high haste and very low expertise). Haste also gives you higher dps, hps and more sacred shield absorbs. I would trade that any day for the "reliablity" of expertise. Insert clever HoPo banking and suddenly expertise does not even give you reliablity.

    So basically, if you can play paladin tank properly, going for expertise hard cap is trading nothing at all for dps, hps, SS ticks and HoPo regen. That is a no-brainer if you ask me.

    I really dont understand why so many people are so hellbent on capping expertise. If you want to do it, fine, but dont try to convince everyone else that it is the only way. Capping expertise is viable, and probably optimal if you play badly. However if you play well it will be sub-par.

    I have not been expertise capped since beta, and I do not intend to be until I can get expertise cap without sacrificing haste.
    I suppose I prefer to have my actions give a guaranteed result. Sorry you think I'm a sheep because of it.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by -ex- View Post
    I suppose I prefer to have my actions give a guaranteed result. Sorry you think I'm a sheep because of it.
    I dont think you are a sheep as long as you understand why you are doing it. Being a sheep is about accepting something mindlessly without questioning the validity of the claim. Saying it is the only way is kinda sheep-ish. It is perfectly viable to go for hard cap exp first, but if you pool HoPo properly it is sub-par, very hard to find a way around that. As long as you understand that it is okay.

    Again, nothing wrong with you preferring your actions to have a guaranteed result, but you should not try to tell people it is the only and the best way when it is kinda hard to justify that it is.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    I dont think you are a sheep as long as you understand why you are doing it. Being a sheep is about accepting something mindlessly without questioning the validity of the claim. Saying it is the only way is kinda sheep-ish. It is perfectly viable to go for hard cap exp first, but if you pool HoPo properly it is sub-par, very hard to find a way around that. As long as you understand that it is okay.

    Again, nothing wrong with you preferring your actions to have a guaranteed result, but you should not try to tell people it is the only and the best way when it is kinda hard to justify that it is.
    Fair enough, but can you provide some samples of the dps,hps, HP generation increase, perhaps some math to back it up? Extra SS ticks are only going to occur at very distant intervals, its true you MIGHT gain a tick by sacrificing Exp, but that depends entirely on your current gearing. How far under the exp cap do you go? What % do you think is optimal?

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by -ex- View Post
    Fair enough, but can you provide some samples of the dps,hps, HP generation increase, perhaps some math to back it up? SS ticks are only going to occur at very distant intervals, its true you MIGHT gain a tick by sacrificing Exp, but that depends entirely on your current gearing. How far under the exp cap do you go? What % do you think is optimal?
    Remember, SS scales with haste regardless of the number of ticks (which usually is insignificant, as you'll be refreshing SS mostly based on vengeance/str procs, rather than when it falls off, which is all the additional ticks are good for).

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryngo Blackratchet View Post
    Yeah, Rhandric is right, as usual.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by -ex- View Post
    Fair enough, but can you provide some samples of the dps,hps, HP generation increase, perhaps some math to back it up? Extra SS ticks are only going to occur at very distant intervals, its true you MIGHT gain a tick by sacrificing Exp, but that depends entirely on your current gearing. How far under the exp cap do you go? What % do you think is optimal?
    SS ticks update dynamically with haste, whereby each tick will occur faster UNTIL you get to a breakpoint where you earn an EXTRA tick. So, haste has a linear benefit to SS (as well as SOI).

    Personally, I sit at 15% exp, but that's only because I have the ilvl to do so. I don't really concern myself going below 15%, as I've run as low as 10-12% for progression without any real problems. Remember that above 7.5%, you're ONLY "buffing" CS/HotR; J and GC AS are both guaranteed, so it only affects a portion of your incoming HoPo.

    There was a large discussion on this, in the Prot Pal sticky, back in like....Arpil/May? I CBA to go dig for it now, but basically everyone, even your boy Theck, concluded that it was a DPS/HPS loss to stack exp above 7.5% if it meant detrimental effects on haste. Haste is just. that. good. I think FF had some plots of returns on stat allocation for exp vs haste at varying levels, but they're buried in the thread somewhere. There was a slight dropoff in HPG, but that was offset by haste's feedback with SoB (up until 50% haste, anyway).

    I'd say shoot for 7.5%, then just let it stack up as you can, while still prioritizing haste. At ~530+ ilvl, you should have innately ~10-11% anyway.

    So, while I do what I'm telling you and most players not to do, it's only because I can
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by -ex- View Post
    Fair enough, but can you provide some samples of the dps,hps, HP generation increase, perhaps some math to back it up? Extra SS ticks are only going to occur at very distant intervals, its true you MIGHT gain a tick by sacrificing Exp, but that depends entirely on your current gearing. How far under the exp cap do you go? What % do you think is optimal?
    All my documents are a mess, but as the dps and hps increase think theck also covered that in his mathlab on maintankadin.
    This has topic has been beaten like a dead horse more than once.

    I think the optimal is just to go straight hit>haste>exp, and whatever exp you get, that exp you get. If you have 25% units higher haste than your expetise (i.e. 10 expertise and 40% haste I would probably drop some haste into expertise), though not really sure as I have not reached that point myself. A personal flavor is to keep expertise above 9~ ish, currently sitting on about 13.

    Even though haste is better than expertise for dps and hps even at higher haste and lower expertise values, I prefer going expertise>haste whenever expertise provides a bit higher HoPo regen (a bit after the breakpoint). But that is very unlikely to happen. You would need some very weird gear for that the occur.

    Again, the goal is not to skip the hard cap of expertise, it is just to priortise haste over the hard cap.
    Last edited by Firefly33; 2013-07-01 at 04:21 PM.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by rhandric View Post
    Remember, SS scales with haste regardless of the number of ticks (which usually is insignificant, as you'll be refreshing SS mostly based on vengeance/str procs, rather than when it falls off, which is all the additional ticks are good for).
    That is a very good point, but how much Exp is it worth sacrificing? As far as refreshing SS, do you really refresh it on procs? I generally Just make sure I have refreshed it when my vengeance stabilizes, At what point do you consider it worth sacrificing a HP generator? I'm not trying to be snarky btw, I'm honestly curious.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    Personally, I sit at 15% exp, but that's only because I have the ilvl to do so. I don't really concern myself going below 15%, as I've run as low as 10-12% for progression without any real problems. Remember that above 7.5%, you're ONLY "buffing" CS/HotR; J and GC AS are both guaranteed, so it only affects a portion of your incoming HoPo.
    Actually, above 0 expertise you are only buffing the HoPo regen of CS/HotR. GC produces HoPo regardless of hit or not. J gets 100% hit ratio at hit cap only. The only thing that you soft cap at 7.5 expertise is some of your dps abilities.

    ---------- Post added 2013-07-01 at 04:24 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by -ex- View Post
    That is a very good point, but how much Exp is it worth sacrificing? As far as refreshing SS, do you really refresh it on procs? I generally Just make sure I have refreshed it when my vengeance stabilizes, At what point do you consider it worth sacrificing a HP generator? I'm not trying to be snarky btw, I'm honestly curious.
    I refresh it whenever I have a significantly higher amount AP, or if I know that my AP is going to go down. If I had a SS rolling that was cast with 200k vengeance, I am not gonna recast it just because I got a str trinket proc. It is more about going what feels right. If I think the gain is worth the global than I refresh. I would never really sacrifice a hopo generator for it.

    @How much expertise is worth sacrificing, just go max haste. Whatever expertise you lose, that is the amount that is worth sacrificing. You shoul still be sitting at 10-14 expertise if you are decently geared even when not aiming for expertise primarly.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  11. #31
    Well this is very interesting, I'm going to lower my expertise in the coming week to see how it effects my logs. But damn its going to feel yucky every time CS/HotR misses

    It sure is curious though that Fraggoji, Slootbag, Treckie and several other high end paladins still hit the caps. Why do you guys suppose this is when many of you claim that haste>exp is a higher HPG? Perhaps they don't care about optimizing their gear after months of farming the content.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by -ex- View Post
    It sure is curious though that Fraggoji, Slootbag, Treckie and several other high end paladins still hit the caps. Why do you guys suppose this is when many of you claim that haste>exp is a higher HPG? Perhaps they don't care about optimizing their gear after months of farming the content.
    Step one is that high end guilds tactics differ from most of the other guilds, they are going into the content undergeared which changes things.
    Secondly, they are only human. Being in a world 1 guild does not mean you are the best player of that class in the world. In the same way, being in a bad guild does not mean you are a bad player. I know a guy that is 12/12 normal that is easily one of the best warlocks in the world, he used to play in World top 3 guilds but nowadays he does not raid seriously anymore, he is in a friends and family guild raiding 1 raid per week with the requirement of alchol (joined their raid once, damn that was one drunken raid). They only clear the raid on normal and dont bother with heroics.

    If you check videos of like Fraggoji you can tell that in fact he is not really that good at playing paladin. Paragons Empress HC first kill for example. If you are not that good at playing paladin, well then expertise becomes better. (Is fraggoji still tanking in paragon btw, didnt he change to his dk or something?)

    TL;DR, checking what the players in the top guilds do will most often not yield you the best results yourself.


    Edit: Also, if you check slootbags armory you will notice that he has not sacrificed any haste for expertise. He has reforged to haste on every piece that do not natively got haste. He reforged to expertise on 2 pieces and those 2 pieces already had haste on them, so he could not get more haste. He got 1 gem with haste/expertise and that is in a +60 haste socket. Otherwise it is pure haste.

    They simply get the gear to use a hit>haste>expertise prio and still get 15 expertise.
    Last edited by Firefly33; 2013-07-01 at 04:53 PM.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by -ex- View Post
    That is a very good point, but how much Exp is it worth sacrificing? As far as refreshing SS, do you really refresh it on procs? I generally Just make sure I have refreshed it when my vengeance stabilizes, At what point do you consider it worth sacrificing a HP generator? I'm not trying to be snarky btw, I'm honestly curious.
    Refresh if/when you have high AP. It's that simple. On HC Lei Shen, I will soak up veng going into transition phases (I solo a quadrant) so that I'm riding a 200k SS for ~30 seconds. I strongly encourage the use of WA/TMW to track your current veng/AP levels and SS levels so you're not flying blind.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Actually, above 0 expertise you are only buffing the HoPo regen of CS/HotR. GC produces HoPo regardless of hit or not. J gets 100% hit ratio at hit cap only. The only thing that you soft cap at 7.5 expertise is some of your dps abilities.
    Derp, you're right. I was thinking that J needed the 15% spell hit (from 7.5+7.5) to be capped, but yeah. Again, I still sit at 15%, but that's a good point.

    Quote Originally Posted by -ex- View Post
    Well this is very interesting, I'm going to lower my expertise in the coming week to see how it effects my logs. But damn its going to feel yucky every time CS/HotR misses
    I run HA frequently, and that's a big reason I sit on 15%, since missing a CS under HA is a loss of THREE, not just ONE HoPo.

    It sure is curious though that Fraggoji, Slootbag, Treckie and several other high end paladins still hit the caps. Why do you guys suppose this is when many of you claim that haste>exp is a higher HPG? Perhaps they don't care about optimizing their gear after months of farming the content.
    It's not curious at all. Anyone who is farming TOT HC has the gear to be at 17-19k haste AND expertise caps, which is what I was saying earlier, when I noted that I (and they) run at cap. It's not a matter of not caring or not knowing, it's just that we have the gear to support it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    I run HA frequently, and that's a big reason I sit on 15%, since missing a CS under HA is a loss of THREE, not just ONE HoPo.
    5.4 is coming.

    *evil laugh*
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    5.4 is coming.

    *evil laugh*
    Yeah it's pretty much the death of HA. RIP old friend.

    But, with the "changes" to 4p, I really don't want to WOG @ 3xBOG to fish for DP procs. It just feels so....lame. I'll likely just go full off-tier and shoot for 80-95% instead, so perhaps I can find a way to make it work still!




    Not really though. Going DP and calling it a day most likely.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    It's not curious at all. Anyone who is farming TOT HC has the gear to be at 17-19k haste AND expertise caps, which is what I was saying earlier, when I noted that I (and they) run at cap. It's not a matter of not caring or not knowing, it's just that we have the gear to support it.
    Well I have a poorly itemized helm, but we are at the same ilvl I guess that one shitty helm is going to screw me out of exp cap.

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